Theological Truth and Real Truth

[humble soul]

Different?
What different?
Please explain.

You are doing exactly what I am trying avoid.
and that is go down the predictable path of "my truth is more authentic than yours" or
"I own the truth. You dont."
I refuse to play that game. Not because Im worried about losing. Just because its boring and easily becomes negative. and its been done too many times before.

 

[Tessa]

So the ones who have the best discernment have the best versions of the truth?
or we need to discern the best discerners?

Where did i say that?
I said pray for discernment and study for your Self.
No i didn't mention other people. The Holy Spirit guides . I don't judge others
Christ's teachings are perfect, that is what we have to follow if we love Him

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Hold on a second. If I'm reading this discussion correctly, then there are a few things to straighten out.

First is about holding the bible as our foundation, as a source for answers, and the first guide we should look to. If we answer based on the bible, then that is a good foundation to have. Quoting the bible is a good thing.

Trust God more then we trust our own understanding kind of thing. (Not that we don't try to understand, but that our trust in God is bigger then if we can explain His words or His reasoning).

The second thing is a whole other topic of moving past the issue of trying to seek the truth, to the things that are more important then the truth. This is a dangerous topic because it borders on the reasoning of dismissing reliability of truth, of a good foundation, and of good doctrine. Even if there are more important things for us to focus on then discerning what's real and what's true, the matter of truth should not be a subject to dismiss. It's important and is what our foundation should be built on.

The one example I can think of for what could be of more importance then truth is to love. Paul wrote about love in 1 Corinthians saying that love is greater then wisdom, visions of prophesy, and acts of faith, and that without love those things are worthless.

The truth though is still very important. It's worth studing what's true and what's not.

 

[JLB]

what about man's teachings of Christ?
Paul
Augustine
Luther
Calvin
Billy Graham
Benny Hinn
Joel Osteen
Joyce Meyer

Only Paul, since he is an Apostle and his teachings came directly from Jesus Christ.


The Truth is Jesus Christ: His Doctrine


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

That’s why the body of Christ is so divided, because everybody follows the teachings of man, and here’s why -


Man sells his teachings, and discourages people from learning from other men or women.


We are supposed to direct people to the teachings of Jesus Christ that are found in the Bible, and specifically from His Apostles.


People can’t make money off of that.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13



JLB

 

[JLB]

First is about holding the bible as our foundation, as a source for answers, and the first guide we should look to. If we answer based on the bible, then that is a good foundation to have. Quoting the bible is a good thing.

Amen to that!


Thank you for standing for the truth.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The second thing is a whole other topic of moving past the issue of trying to seek the truth, to the things that are more important then the truth. This is a dangerous topic because it borders on the reasoning of dismissing reliability of truth, of a good foundation, and of good doctrine. Even if there are more important things for us to focus on then discerning what's real and what's true, the matter of truth should not be a subject to dismiss. It's important and is what our foundation should be built on.

Paul says it this way -


And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12


No quicker way to make oneself an enemy of God, than to disregard the truth and believe and teach the lie to His children.


Here is one of many 911 warnings in scripture.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. 2 John 9-11



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hold on a second. If I'm reading this discussion correctly, then there are a few things to straighten out.

First is about holding the bible as our foundation, as a source for answers, and the first guide we should look to. If we answer based on the bible, then that is a good foundation to have. Quoting the bible is a good thing.

Trust God more then we trust our own understanding kind of thing. (Not that we don't try to understand, but that our trust in God is bigger then if we can explain His words or His reasoning).

The second thing is a whole other topic of moving past the issue of trying to seek the truth, to the things that are more important then the truth. This is a dangerous topic because it borders on the reasoning of dismissing reliability of truth, of a good foundation, and of good doctrine. Even if there are more important things for us to focus on then discerning what's real and what's true, the matter of truth should not be a subject to dismiss. It's important and is what our foundation should be built on.

The one example I can think of for what could be of more importance then truth is to love. Paul wrote about love in 1 Corinthians saying that love is greater then wisdom, visions of prophesy, and acts of faith, and that without love those things are worthless.

The truth though is still very important. It's worth studing what's true and what's not.

JLB gave you an AMEN for the above.

I have a question:
If the bible holds the truth...
how come we all believe something different?

If the truth is not clear, how could we know what the truth is?

Jesus was the truth.
Paul moved it around a bit....
Paul is misunderstood.
So how do we get to the truth now?

 

[GodsGrace]

Im no theologian. Thats for sure.
But dont we all get obsessed about "the truth".
The intellectual truth I will assert.The left brain truth, if you dont mind me adding.
Im not saying a search for the truth isnt important. But sometimes we get too complacent if we think we have found it.
Alright. I know what you are going to say. "Jesus Christ is the truth."
And of course I agree. But doesnt that set us up to become intolerant? Inflexible? Dogmatic? The search is over therefore game over?
Ok Im sounding like a seriously disturbed liberal i know. A radical relativist. A heretic.
Because I wont put Bible front and centre? The Bible is the Truth more than Jesus Christ is the truth?
Ok Ok...i will stop making these migraine threads and return to my safe haven.
thanks for reading.

I'll tell you this Humble Soul,,,,
If there is more than ONE TRUTH...
then we don't know the truth.

I like the passage where Pilate asks Jesus
WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
John 18:38

Pilate was staring right at the truth,,,,
So is Jesus the truth?

Then why would we need Paul or anybody else for that matter?
Why not just read the gospels and be done with it?

Or would we STILL have a problem?

I like to go to the Early Church Fathers when something is unclear to me. JLB calls these men. Are they mere men if they learned from the Apostles?

WHO do we trust?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

JLB gave you an AMEN for the above.

I have a question:
If the bible holds the truth...
how come we all believe something different?

If the truth is not clear, how could we know what the truth is?

Jesus was the truth.
Paul moved it around a bit....
Paul is misunderstood.
So how do we get to the truth now?

I use to believe in the value of promises, and then I read a teaching from Jesus in the sermon on the mount that we should just let our yes be yes and our no be no. Anything more then that is from the evil one. This tiny lesson is huge though and it goes towards making promises or swearing that you'll do a commitment. It also challenges the world we live in with so many agreement like contracts we sign.

Nonetheless, Jesus's words are reliable. Even if we struggle with them, or with applying one teaching while also applying another, our foundation in my opinion for what is the most reliable source for the truth is to consult the bible.

 

[JohnDB]

And this is how we begin a discussion of "what color is the dress in the picture above".

And then the logic of why two individuals can see very different colors. Neither of the two are evil... neither has a failed conscience. Or even colorblindness. Honest people who have completely honest viewpoints.


And on the lighter side of things...
The dress was blue and any heretic who sees otherwise is a spawn of Satan and should be stabbed, burned, beaten and beheaded...at the very least unfriended and reported for spam.

 

[GodsGrace]

I use to believe in the value of promises, and then I read a teaching from Jesus in the sermon on the mount that we should just let our yes be yes and our no be no. Anything more then that is from the evil one. This tiny lesson is huge though and it goes towards making promises or swearing that you'll do a commitment. It also challenges the world we live in with so many agreement like contracts we sign.

Nonetheless, Jesus's words are reliable. Even if we struggle with them, or with applying one teaching while also applying another, our foundation in my opinion for what is the most reliable source for the truth is to consult the bible.

You say Jesus' words are reliable.
So do you mean that to find the source of truth we should use the bible...
Or do you mean that to find the source of truth we should consult Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

I use to believe in the value of promises, and then I read a teaching from Jesus in the sermon on the mount that we should just let our yes be yes and our no be no. Anything more then that is from the evil one. This tiny lesson is huge though and it goes towards making promises or swearing that you'll do a commitment. It also challenges the world we live in with so many agreement like contracts we sign.

Nonetheless, Jesus's words are reliable. Even if we struggle with them, or with applying one teaching while also applying another, our foundation in my opinion for what is the most reliable source for the truth is to consult the bible.

PS
I did a lesson some years ago on Matthew 5 LET YOUR YES BE YES AND YOUR NO BE NO.

What does this mean to you?
It DOES have to do with taking an oath...

 

[GodsGrace]

And this is how we begin a discussion of "what color is the dress in the picture above".

And then the logic of why two individuals can see very different colors. Neither of the two are evil... neither has a failed conscience. Or even colorblindness. Honest people who have completely honest viewpoints.


And on the lighter side of things...
The dress was blue and any heretic who sees otherwise is a spawn of Satan and should be stabbed, burned, beaten and beheaded...at the very least unfriended and reported for spam.

Agreed John,
Neither of the two disagreeing are evil.
But which one is right?
YES, this IS important.

I hear some persons say that WORKS ARE AGAINST GOD'S LAW....
the new law, at least.

Is this right?
Is this the truth?
Am I doing my works in vain?
Should I stop immediately and just watch TV all day?


(caps for convenience)

 

[JohnDB]

Agreed John,
Neither of the two disagreeing are evil.
But which one is right?
YES, this IS important.

I hear some persons say that WORKS ARE AGAINST GOD'S LAW....
the new law, at least.

Is this right?
Is this the truth?
Am I doing my works in vain?
Should I stop immediately and just watch TV all day?


(caps for convenience)

Well it's an individual answer meaning it depends upon the motives of the person doing the works.
And the motives of the person saying "

I hear some persons say that WORKS ARE AGAINST GOD'S LAW....
the new law, at least."

Now Corinthians 13 has a line in it that people often gloss over. "Love is disemulating"
What it means is that when you love someone truly for who they really are you see through their "mask" and love them anyway. (Warts and all)
But not everyone has a clear picture of the person behind the mask. They have their own colored lenses they see through.

So a choice gets to be made.
And people are rather predictable in choosing to give weight to the advice they wish to hear instead of the advice they need to hear.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well it's an individual answer meaning it depends upon the motives of the person doing the works.
And the motives of the person saying "

I hear some persons say that WORKS ARE AGAINST GOD'S LAW....
the new law, at least."

Now Corinthians 13 has a line in it that people often gloss over. "Love is disemulating"
What it means is that when you love someone truly for who they really are you see through their "mask" and love them anyway. (Warts and all)
But not everyone has a clear picture of the person behind the mask. They have their own colored lenses they see through.

So a choice gets to be made.
And people are rather predictable in choosing to give weight to the advice they wish to hear instead of the advice they need to hear.

What difference does it make what the motive is?
Some things we do because we have to and some things we do because we like to and some things we do because God asks us to and gives us the strength to.

If someone reads the bible and comes away believing God "doesn't need any help" and they go about their merry way....

And someone reads the same bible and comes away believing God wants them to do the work/good deeds of God in the Kingdom here on earth...then one of them did not understand what they read.

The O.P. is talking about truth...
There cannot be two truths or neither one of them is the truth.

 

[JLB]

And someone reads the same bible and comes away believing God wants them to do the work/good deeds of God in the Kingdom here on earth...then one of them did not understand what they read.

The O.P. is talking about truth...
There cannot be two truths or neither one of them is the truth.

Amen.


I have found that the reason a person can read a scripture and come away with a different perspective or understanding because they read a certain passage with a preconceived idea in mind; through the “lens” of having been previously taught what that passage means, or what another passage about the subject says, rather than what the passage actually says.

Another reason is they don’t fully understand what the definitions of the words they are reading mean, from the original language. IOW the Bible words have taken on a “post modern” meaning, rather than what they meant when the passage was written.

“Believe” is just one of those words.



John 10:27-28 is a good example of this, especially the word “hear” and “follow”.


To sum up:

Some people learn by reading what other people teach.

Some people learn by reading and asking the Holy Spirit to lead and guide them.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.


I have found that the reason a person can read a scripture and come away with a different perspective or understanding because they read a certain passage with a preconceived idea in mind; through the “lens” of having been previously taught what that passage means, or what another passage about the subject says, rather than what the passage actually says.

Another reason is they don’t fully understand what the definitions of the words they are reading mean, from the original language. IOW the Bible words have taken on a “post modern” meaning, rather than what they meant when the passage was written.

“Believe” is just one of those words.



John 10:27-28 is a good example of this, especially the word “hear” and “follow”.


To sum up:

Some people learn by reading what other people teach.

Some people learn by reading and asking the Holy Spirit to lead and guide them.




JLB

Thanks for the reply.
The two examples are very good.

I understand the one about person's coming to the bible with preconceived notions...they'll tend to read into each verse what they believe to be true.

As to the post-modern reading...probably.
We understand wording differently today.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for the reply.
The two examples are very good.

I understand the one about person's coming to the bible with preconceived notions...they'll tend to read into each verse what they believe to be true.

As to the post-modern reading...probably.
We understand wording differently today.

Take the love for instance.


In society, people tend to throw this word around, quite casually.


I love rock and roll music
I love Van Halen
We made love last night while her parents were out for the evening.
I just love street tacos
I love that guy in the Avengers
I love Tequila
I just love Halloween
I love when I wear those pants, and the guys just stare at me.


Then we come to church and sing I love you Lord...



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Take the love for instance.


In society, people tend to throw this word around, quite casually.


I love rock and roll music
I love Van Halen
We made love last night while her parents were out for the evening.
I just love street tacos
I love that guy in the Avengers
I love Tequila
I just love Halloween
I love when I wear those pants, and the guys just stare at me.


Then we come to church and sing I love you Lord...



JLB

LOL
Only in English...
In Italian this is not done.
Love means love.
You can't say "I love my car".
You could only say "I like my car".

Yes...love could lose all its meaning.

 

[Serving Zion]

But doesnt that set us up to become intolerant? Inflexible? Dogmatic?

Inflexible, yes, though dogmatism and intolerance is an unmerciful manifestation of stubbornness and pride - not necessarily resulting from the stubbornness.

You should observe that Jesus Christ and all the great prophets were inflexible too. That is a simple result when a person knows that the truth is more valuable than peace. It is the ones who oppose the truth who make war by bringing untruth to bear upon reality and thereby becoming enemies of the truth - and why? .. because they desire a different thing and to be of the truth would deprive them of it.

Ok Im sounding like a seriously disturbed liberal i know. A radical relativist. A heretic.
Because I wont put Bible front and centre? The Bible is the Truth more than Jesus Christ is the truth?

It is the spirit talking through Jesus, that says "I am the truth, the way and the life".. just as Jesus said "I will send you another helper to be with you forever - he will be in you, and he will take from what is mine to share it with you - that is the spirit of the truth" - He was talking to his disciples in carnal terms, as they recognised him as a man, as the messiah, He was not talking to them as the Holy Spirit in first-person as He had done with Philip "whoever has seen me has seen the father" or with the unbelieving Jews "before Abraham was, I am". Therefore, when you read the Bible (if your translation permits), you also receive the words of the spirit of truth that come through those who wrote in it - because "God is spirit", and words are useful for conveying spirit.

But isn't it fascinating just to read the different perspectives within Christianity alone.

I am not fascinated by it. It is a pain - just as Jesus wept when He saw the people were all scattered as sheep with no shepherd .. only, I do not weep for them. They are liars who oppose the truth and have taken His name in vain. They are cursed and workers of iniquity (Galatians 1:8, Matthew 7:23). I weep only because of the harm they do.

what about man's teachings of Christ?
Paul
Augustine
Luther
Calvin
Billy Graham
Benny Hinn
Joel Osteen
Joyce Meyer

Have you seen that none of them are teaching what Christ has said to them? .. only what they have conceived through considering the questions that come to mind as they investigate the matters of faith? .. then if they are of the spirit of Christ in their thinking, they will be consistent with Him, doing what He also was doing - since it is Him doing it through them. That is a bif "if", now, being 2,000 years after the spirit of the antichrist has come into the world and the massive Gentilification of Christianity.

No one owns the truth. The truth owns us maybe?
Prayer is superior to debate or even evangelism imo.
and while im on prayer.....do you think God prefers someones prayer effort over another?
i honestly think he does.

I have read things like that before, eg:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Hear prayers

www.biblegateway.com

Someone could challenge the verses you have quoted here? Are they the best ones to use ?
the many interpretations suggest to me that the truth isnt as clear,as black and white as first thought.

It seems JohnDB did not expect to meet the resistance in you that you have met him with. You are right, the truth is vast, more vast than can be grasped. When a word is spoken with ample carelessness, our adversary has an ample opportunity to find an exploit in it (Galatians 6:2).