The Heresy of Sinless Perfection as Held by Some Here

[Carry_Your_Name]

It is because he is writing about his past while still in the "flesh". (Rom 7:5)

Your attempt to include being in the "flesh" as a Christian, is a nonstarter.
Christians walk in the Spirit, and not in the "flesh".
They have crucified the flesh, with its vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
It is dead and buried with Christ. (Ro 6:3-6)
We are perfect ! (Rom 6:7)

No we're not. This is the Laodicean attitude of complacency condemned by the Lord himself: "Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." (Rev. 3:17)

I am trying to convince you of something I would never have dared messed with while I walked in the now dead 'flesh".
Being here is the fruit you are privy to.
But you can't see my whole new life.

What fruit are you bringing forth while you defend sin ?

I'm not defending sin, I'm defending the biblical teaching about the reality and severity of sin. You're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince yourself that you're living in a utopia where sin doesn't exist.

I am speaking of an actual death.
Those supporting a "spiritual death only" heresy manifest the heresy with continued works of the supposedly dead "flesh".
They keep sinning !

Why don't you remove the plank from your own eyes before you point your finger at the speck in other people's eyes?

Yes it does.
If it is not dead, why does the Spirit need to quicken it ?
It is written..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom 8:11)

It's not dead because you're still here typing and boasting as a hypocrite.

I can only proclaim what the power of God is capable of.
If you see that as boasting, tough.

Thanks be to God I have no "own" truth.
Only His truth, that can make us all free from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

God's truth is that his own begotten son Jesus died for our SIN. You're denying Jesus by denying your sinful nature. This is exactly what is warned in 2 Tim. 3:5 - "having a form of godliness but denying its power."

I have been blessed with the ability to see that when scriptures supporting sin in Christ are presented I have been afforded the words to deny the untruths.
There is no darkness in God.
Neither is there darkness in those walking in God.

Scripture doesn't "support" sin, Scripture EXPOSES sin. You're too blind to see the difference.

The sins were from before his conversion/repentance from sin/rebirth.
You are aware of that...right ?
What is your point ?

I don't have a point, Paul does. His point is that there's always a struggle between the flesh and the spirit, spiritual birth is like any physical birth, it's the BEGINNING of a new life, not the end. And yet you keep pretending that it's the end and deceiving yourself that sin doesn't exist anymore.

As long as the "works" are not circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, for salvation, I have violated none of the precepts set down by Paul.

Not to my rebirth, except obeying the command to do it.
But I can do plenty to manifest is happened: with every charitable incident, with every time I tell the truth instead of lying, with every time I buy instead of steal.
The unconverted can't say that.

You're suggesting that you can obey the Lord's commands by your own strength without the power of the Holy Spirit, that's work based religion. You're only telling your own truth as long as you pretend that sin doesn't exist.

As you know nothing about me, except that I preach righteousness, on what are you basing your accusations ?

On the fact that you've been promoting the heresy of sinless perfecting, equating yourself with Jesus, the only one who's sinless, and denying the severity and gravity of sin, and when I point that out, you accuse me of "defending sin", that's like shooting the messenger.

They won't be given to those who die in unrighteousness.

You're suggesting that you don't need that robe since you're already righteous. That's not righteousness, that's self-righteousness.

All who turn from sin permanently, and die for their faith in Christ, will get a white robe.
Sinners will get a trip to the lake of fire.
Thanks be to God for allowing us the way to be non-sinners !

Again, you're behaving like the Pharisee: "God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector." (Lk. 18:11) And here's the verdict from the Lord: "I tell you that this man (the tax collector), rather than the other (the Pharisee), went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

 

[Hopeful 2]

No we're not. This is the Laodicean attitude of complacency condemned by the Lord himself: "Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." (Rev. 3:17)

Didn't He also say what their actions would warrant ?
Not heaven.

I'm not defending sin, I'm defending the biblical teaching about the reality and severity of sin. You're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince yourself that you're living in a utopia where sin doesn't exist.

Better check again.

Why don't you remove the plank from your own eyes before you point your finger at the speck in other people's eyes?

Is it easier to chasten the ones being obedient to God than those who openly defend sin ?

It's not dead because you're still here typing and boasting as a hypocrite.

It is either dead in sin, or alive in Christ..in Whom is no sin.

God's truth is that his own begotten son Jesus died for our SIN. You're denying Jesus by denying your sinful nature. This is exactly what is warned in 2 Tim. 3:5 - "having a form of godliness but denying its power."

He died we too could die and be reborn of Father's seed.
Those reborn of God have no sinful nature.
Only those not born of God have a sinful nature.
As it is written..." And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3)
Were, time past, past.
Not any more !
My posts extol the power of God in the truly repentant.
Yours, make excuses to continue in sin.
Where is the power of God being manifested in sin ?

Scripture doesn't "support" sin,

You are right there !

Scripture EXPOSES sin. You're too blind to see the difference.

If my posts exhorting obedience to God are sinful, what do you suppose your posts that defend sin are ?

I don't have a point, Paul does. His point is that there's always a struggle between the flesh and the spirit, spiritual birth is like any physical birth, it's the BEGINNING of a new life, not the end. And yet you keep pretending that it's the end and deceiving yourself that sin doesn't exist anymore.

The end will occur on the day of judgement.

You're suggesting that you can obey the Lord's commands by your own strength without the power of the Holy Spirit, that's work based religion. You're only telling your own truth as long as you pretend that sin doesn't exist.

Not at all.
I credit the Lord with making me anew so I can obey His commandments.

On the fact that you've been promoting the heresy of sinless perfecting, equating yourself with Jesus, the only one who's sinless, and denying the severity and gravity of sin, and when I point that out, you accuse me of "defending sin", that's like shooting the messenger.

If you are really aware of the severity and gravity of sin, wouldn't you like to stop committing sin ?

You're suggesting that you don't need that robe since you're already righteous. That's not righteousness, that's self-righteousness.

The unrighteous won't get a white robe after their deaths.
Only the righteous will.
Which will you be ?

Again, you're behaving like the Pharisee: "God, I thank you that I am not like other people

I didn't see an "I" in my post...did you ?

—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector." (Lk. 18:11) And here's the verdict from the Lord: "I tell you that this man (the tax collector), rather than the other (the Pharisee), went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Thanks be to God for freeing us from service to sin !
Do you thinks the parable's tax collector went home and continued his sins after his ordeal ?
More sins would be a manifestation of 2 Cor 7:10's sorrow of the world.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I didn't see an "I" in my post...did you ?

Thanks be to God for freeing us from service to sin !
Do you thinks the parable's tax collector went home and continued his sins after his ordeal ?
More sins would be a manifestation of 2 Cor 7:10's sorrow of the world.

The tax collector confesses his sin, he doesn't deceive himself by claiming he's sinless, and the text never says he went home sinless, it only says he went home justified.

The unrighteous won't get a white robe after their deaths.
Only the righteous will.
Which will you be ?

Why does it matter to you since you believe you're already righteous?

If you are really aware of the severity and gravity of sin, wouldn't you like to stop committing sin ?

You do realize that this is the same kind of loaded question like "have you stopped cheating on your spouse?" To answer your question, I don't pretend that I have no sin, nor do I try to justify myself, I confess my sins like the tax collector and pray for God's intercession.

Not at all.
I credit the Lord with making me anew so I can obey His commandments.

No you don't. You discredit the Lord for his atonement on the cross by shamelessly claiming you're already sinless.

If my posts exhorting obedience to God are sinful, what do you suppose your posts that defend sin are ?

Your posts only show your sin of pride, none of them exhort any obedience to God. If you were obedient to God you'd stop promoting the heresy of sinless perfection and repent your sin of promoting it.

He died we too could die and be reborn of Father's seed.
Those reborn of God have no sinful nature.
Only those not born of God have a sinful nature.

Then you're still following Nietzsche who taught sinless nature, not Jesus who died for our sinful nature. Keep denying it as you want.

It is either dead in sin, or alive in Christ..in Whom is no sin.

Christ doesn't boast he has no sin, even though he indeed has no sin.

Is it easier to chasten the ones being obedient to God than those who openly defend sin ?

I'm chastening you who refuse God's chastening for you by claiming you have no sin and no need for disciplining.

Didn't He also say what their actions would warrant ?
Not heaven.

It's not "their action". It's OUR action. We're living in an age of Laodicea where the whole church is being complacent with this attitude. As long as you pretend this is written to somebody else and irrelevant to you, you have no ear to hear.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The tax collector confesses his sin, he doesn't deceive himself by claiming he's sinless, and the text never says he went home sinless, it only says he went home justified.

It was still in the OT.
They all walked in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

Why does it matter to you since you believe you're already righteous?

You brought it up.

You do realize that this is the same kind of loaded question like "have you stopped cheating on your spouse?" To answer your question, I don't pretend that I have no sin, nor do I try to justify myself, I confess my sins like the tax collector and pray for God's intercession.

Do you want to quit sinning ?
God doesn't here sinners, (John 9:31), so unless your repentance is permanent, it won't be heard.

No you don't. You discredit the Lord for his atonement on the cross by shamelessly claiming you're already sinless.

Already?
It only came about because I obeyed Peter's exhortation from Acts 2:38.
The same freedom is available to all who will obey Peter.

Your posts only show your sin of pride, none of them exhort any obedience to God. If you were obedient to God you'd stop promoting the heresy of sinless perfection and repent your sin of promoting it.

Obedience to God is not a heresy.
Why would God say..."Be ye holy for I am Holy", if it were heretical to comply ?
You are asserting that obedience to God's commandment is heretical !

Then you're still following Nietzsche who taught sinless nature, not Jesus who died for our sinful nature. Keep denying it as you want.

I know nothing of the man.
I know that at out death with Christ, at His crucifixion, we can shed the old man and be reborn of God's seed to walk in newness of life.
A life walked in the Spirit, and not in and after the "flesh",

Christ doesn't boast he has no sin, even though he indeed has no sin.

Agreed.
I can only state what He allowed us to do "in Him".
Be free !

I'm chastening you who refuse God's chastening for you by claiming you have no sin and no need for disciplining.

I was killed for my sins.
Isn't that enough for you ?

It's not "their action". It's OUR action. We're living in an age of Laodicea where the whole church is being complacent with this attitude. As long as you pretend this is written to somebody else and irrelevant to you, you have no ear to hear.

Who was Jesus speaking about ?
The Laodiceans.
They are a pattern we are not to follow.
They were given the same way of escape from certain destruction that we were given.
Repentance from sin.
If man won't turn from sin, his fate is sealed.

Is it forbidden by you to say "I have availed myself of the repentance from sin that the Laodiceans were given" ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It was still in the OT.
They all walked in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

No, that's from the NT.

You brought it up.

To debunk your heresy that we're already righteous.

Do you want to quit sinning ?
God doesn't here sinners, (John 9:31), so unless your repentance is permanent, it won't be heard.

God came down from heaven for sinners, he died for sinners. "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick." (Matt. 9:12) Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

Already?
It only came about because I obeyed Peter's exhortation from Acts 2:38.
The same freedom is available to all who will obey Peter.

What freedom? Freedom to promote the heresy of sinless perfection? Freedom to equate yourself with Jesus?

Obedience to God is not a heresy.
Why would God say..."Be ye holy for I am Holy", if it were heretical to comply ?
You are asserting that obedience to God's commandment is heretical !

No, obedience to God is not a heresy, "sinless perfection" is.

I know nothing of the man.
I know that at out death with Christ, at His crucifixion, we can shed the old man and be reborn of God's seed to walk in newness of life.
A life walked in the Spirit, and not in and after the "flesh",

Then why are you still promoting the heresy of sinless perfection? Why did you take a good look at the OP?

Agreed.
I can only state what He allowed us to do "in Him".
Be free !

Those are are in Him are empowered to overcome sin, not become totally sinless, for no one is sinless but Jesus.

I was killed for my sins.
Isn't that enough for you ?

No you're not. You're still boasting with pride. You're still looking down at other people as sinners. You're still pointing finger at the speck in my eye when there's a plank in your own eye. You're still behaving like that Pharisee.

Who was Jesus speaking about ?
The Laodiceans.
They are a pattern we are not to follow.
They were given the same way of escape from certain destruction that we were given.
Repentance from sin.
If man won't turn from sin, his fate is sealed.

Is it forbidden by you to say "I have availed myself of the repentance from sin that the Laodiceans were given" ?

You do realize you're asking a lot of rhetorical questions, right? That shows you're talking with yourself, to reassure yourself and justify your position by taking verses out of context. You're trying hard to convince yourself, not me. When there's a portion of the bible that challenges your heresy, you just pretend that it's speaking to somebody else, not you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, that's from the NT.

The NT didn't start until Jesus announced it at the last supper.
The parable's tax collector didn't have access to Jesus' death and resurrection.
He couldn't be perfect until being "immersed" into His death and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)

To debunk your heresy that we're already righteous.

It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)
Don't you have faith ?
Don't you believe ?
If you do, that righteousness is available to you now.

God came down from heaven for sinners, he died for sinners. "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick." (Matt. 9:12) Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

You could have just said "No, I don't want to quit sinning."
Jesus came to free us from sin. (Luke 1:73-75)
You are, in essence, denying Him that success.

What freedom? Freedom to promote the heresy of sinless perfection? Freedom to equate yourself with Jesus?

Freedom from service to sin.
It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."(John 8:34)

No, obedience to God is not a heresy, "sinless perfection" is.

Ever heard of the word "synonym" ?

Then why are you still promoting the heresy of sinless perfection? Why did you take a good look at the OP?

The ability to obey God perfectly isn't a heresy.
It is a commandment from Jesus. (Matt 5:48)
It is accomplished according to the exhortations of Peter, (Acts 2:38), and Paul, (Rom 6:3-7)

Those are are in Him are empowered to overcome sin, not become totally sinless, for no one is sinless but Jesus.

Only empowered 10 % ?
50 % ?
God is able to make us 100% cleansed of sin.
If we keep walking in the light, (1 John 1:5,7), we can stay as clean as He commands.

No you're not. You're still boasting with prided.

God made the way for all men to kill the old man and be raised with Christ walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
A life of obedience to God.
Some rejoice at that good news and embrace it.
Others shun it in favor of continued service to sin.
Some want to be known for their love and others are not afraid to be known for their sins.

You're still looking down at other people as sinners. You're still pointing finger at the speck in my eye when there's a plank in your own eye. You're still behaving like that Pharisee.

Others look at me like I am coming with a life preserver, while they are drowning.
Everyone has their own opinion.

You do realize you're asking a lot of rhetorical questions, right? That shows you're talking with yourself, to reassure yourself and justify your position by taking verses out of context. You're trying hard to convince yourself, not me. When there's a portion of the bible that challenges your heresy, you just pretend that it's speaking to somebody else, not you.

As long as you know the answers to the questions, and don't waste time accusing the deliverer of the message of things to avoid the answers, you just might grow from where you are now to something much more grand.
If the Laodiceans didn't repent of their wickedness they, and all men, will be lost. (Rev 3:3)

It is written..."Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev 3:4-5)

Look at that !
Even in Laodicea some were walking perfectly !
If they can, why can't we ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The NT didn't start until Jesus announced it at the last supper.
The parable's tax collector didn't have access to Jesus' death and resurrection.
He couldn't be perfect until being "immersed" into His death and raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)

The bible I read and everybody else reads starts from Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;" The NT starts from Matt. 1:1 - "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham." You are a heretic as you pick and choose what you like and ignore what you don't like.

It is written..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)
Don't you have faith ?
Don't you believe ?
If you do, that righteousness is available to you now.

I do, you don't. You ignore the passages in the bible you don't like by deceiving yourself that those are for the "sinners", not you. What is manifested in you is SELF righteousness, not God's righteousness.

You could have just said "No, I don't want to quit sinning."
Jesus came to free us from sin. (Luke 1:73-75)
You are, in essence, denying Him that success.

You're the one who denies him by claiming you have no sin, not me.

Freedom from service to sin.
It is written..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."(John 8:34)

Then why are you sinning with your prideful attitude? Why are you grieving the Holy Spirit by ignoring the word of God? According to you, "the NT didn't start until Jesus announced it at the last supper," well how do you know that's the "last supper" if you had never read any previous contents? How do you know who Jesus is, who the disciples are and what Passover is if you start from Matt. 26 with no knowledge of anything before that?

Only empowered 10 % ?
50 % ?
God is able to make us 100% cleansed of sin.
If we keep walking in the light, (1 John 1:5,7), we can stay as clean as He commands.

But you don't. You're walking in darkness by promoting a ridiculous heresy, and you refuse to listen because you prefer your heresy rather than sound teaching.

God made the way for all men to kill the old man and be raised with Christ walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
A life of obedience to God.
Some rejoice at that good news and embrace it.
Others shun it in favor of continued service to sin.
Some want to be known for their love and others are not afraid to be known for their sins.

You're still the old man. If you were truly born again in spirit, you'd confess your own sins and confronts the sins of this world, not praising yourself as sinless and gaslighting me that sin doesn't exist, for the Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." (Jn. 16:8)

Others look at me like I am coming with a life preserver, while they are drowning.
Everyone has their own opinion.

Nobody looks at you in that way. You're an arrogant heretic.

Look at that !
Even in Laodicea some were walking perfectly !
If they can, why can't we ?

Because you don't have an ear to hear. And don't speak in terms of "we", it's just you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The bible I read and everybody else reads starts from Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;" The NT starts from Matt. 1:1 - "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham." You are a heretic as you pick and choose what you like and ignore what you don't like.

Was circumcision still necessary for salvation on the day Jesus had His last supper ?

I do, you don't. You ignore the passages in the bible you don't like by deceiving yourself that those are for the "sinners", not you. What is manifested in you is SELF righteousness, not God's righteousness.

If you do, why do you fight so hard against... "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

You're the one who denies him by claiming you have no sin, not me.

Only "in Him" can a man be free from sin.
Without Him, all men would still be serving sin.

Then why are you sinning with your prideful attitude?

Show a single post where I have bragged about something Jesus accomplished in me.

Why are you grieving the Holy Spirit by ignoring the word of God?

Only sin grieves the Holy Spirit.

According to you, "the NT didn't start until Jesus announced it at the last supper," well how do you know that's the "last supper" if you had never read any previous contents? How do you know who Jesus is, who the disciples are and what Passover is if you start from Matt. 26 with no knowledge of anything before that?

I am beginning to see the source of your disbelief.
You just don't seem to believe what is written on any topic.

But you don't. You're walking in darkness by promoting a ridiculous heresy, and you refuse to listen because you prefer your heresy rather than sound teaching.

If one is still sinning, they are denying the Lord a victory in their lives over sin.

You're still the old man. If you were truly born again in spirit, you'd confess your own sins and confronts the sins of this world,

Done.

not praising yourself as sinless and gaslighting me that sin doesn't exist, for the Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." (Jn. 16:8)

Haven't done.

Nobody looks at you in that way. You're an arrogant heretic.

You are entitled to your own opinion.
What matters to me is how Jesus and our Father see me.

Because you don't have an ear to hear. And don't speak in terms of "we", it's just you.

It is written..."Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (Matt 5:6)

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:20)

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matt 6:33)

"The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life." (Luke 1:73-75)

"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35)

"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." (Rom 5:17)

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." (Rom 6:13)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)

Do you identify with any of these verses on righteousness ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Was circumcision still necessary for salvation on the day Jesus had His last supper ?

Does the bible start from Genesis 1:1 or the last supper? And what does circumcision have anything to do with that?

If you do, why do you fight so hard against... "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

"... all them that believe," that doesn't seem to include you who don't believe any parts of the bible that is contrary to your heresy. You think 1 Jn. 1:8 doesn't apply to you even though it's clearly written to "us", not them, not the sinners, not the pharisees, not any pagans because of your disbelief.

Only "in Him" can a man be free from sin.
Without Him, all men would still be serving sin.

Then why are you still serving the sin of pride? Why are you deceiving yourself by claiming you have no sin?

Show a single post where I have bragged about something Jesus accomplished in me.

Every single post where you promote the heresy of sinless perfection.

Only sin grieves the Holy Spirit.

Therefore you're not sinless.

I am beginning to see the source of your disbelief.
You just don't seem to believe what is written on any topic.

That's your disbelief of any inconvenience portions of the Scripture which you don't like. I believe in the whole bible, you only select a few to promote your heresy of sinless perfection.

Done.

Nope.

Haven't done.

You're in denial.

You are entitled to your own opinion.
What matters to me is how Jesus and our Father see me.

"Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you." THat's how Jesus and the Father see you.

Do you identify with any of these verses on righteousness ?

HIS righteousness, not your own. I seek HIS righteousness, not yours, for you have none.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Does the bible start from Genesis 1:1 or the last supper? And what does circumcision have anything to do with that?

The bible does start at Gen 1:1.
Circumcision was of the OT.

"... all them that believe," that doesn't seem to include you who don't believe any parts of the bible that is contrary to your heresy.

If you "believe", the righteousness of God can be yours.
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

You think 1 Jn. 1:8 doesn't apply to you even though it's clearly written to "us", not them, not the sinners, not the pharisees, not any pagans because of your disbelief.

It doesn't apply to anyone who walks in God, as there is no sin in God .

Then why are you still serving the sin of pride?

I'm not, thanks be to God.
Everything I have since my turn from sin is of Hm.

Why are you deceiving yourself by claiming you have no sin?

I repented of sin.
I was washed of all my past sins.
That makes one a clean ex-sinner.
It worked for me.

Every single post where you promote the heresy of sinless perfection.

It is not a heresy.
As written above..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)
Aren't you a believer ?

Therefore you're not sinless.

Were I not sinless, and still walking in darkness, you would be right.
But God has freed me from the past way I lived life.
That freedom is available to you too.

That's your disbelief of any inconvenience portions of the Scripture which you don't like. I believe in the whole bible, you only select a few to promote your heresy of sinless perfection.

I am glad God furnished multiple verses from multiple authors to verify the works of Jesus Christ on earth.
Verses like..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

Nope.

Yup.

You're in denial.

I am in Arizona.

"Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you." THat's how Jesus and the Father see you.

My repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins, and the destruction of the old man, and rebirth from God' seed, have delivered me from that state.
Thanks be to God !

HIS righteousness, not your own. I seek HIS righteousness, not yours, for you have none.

If you have His righteousness, you are righteous !
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Rejoice in the freedom from sin in Christ !

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The bible does start at Gen 1:1.
Circumcision was of the OT.

But didn't you say that it started with the last supper? And again, what does circumcision have anything to do with it? I never mentioned that. Distraction doesn't work.

If you "believe", the righteousness of God can be yours.
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

It is not a heresy.
As written above..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)
Aren't you a believer ?

Again, I believe in God's righteousness, not your self righteousness. You are no believer since you reject sound teaching about the gravity and deadliness of sin.

It doesn't apply to anyone who walks in God, as there is no sin in God .

No, but there is sin in this world, and you and I are affected. You think it doesn't apply because of your denial.

I'm not, thanks be to God.
Everything I have since my turn from sin is of Hm.

You're as sinful as that pharisee in Luke 18.

I repented of sin.
I was washed of all my past sins.
That makes one a clean ex-sinner.
It worked for me.

Then why are you still denying the word of God and preaching a heresy?

Were I not sinless, and still walking in darkness, you would be right.
But God has freed me from the past way I lived life.
That freedom is available to you too.

Walking in light means being empowered with the Holy Spirit to overcome sin, which is a lifelong journey, that's not what you're doing. You're not walking anywhere, you believe the journey is over and sin doesn't exist, while in fact the journey has just begun and sin is all around.

I am glad God furnished multiple verses from multiple authors to verify the works of Jesus Christ on earth.
Verses like..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

You have no relationship with Christ as long as you claim you have no sin and thus no need for salvation.

Yup.

I am in Arizona.

See, you're still in this world, you're transformed into glorious new being yet, you're still in your sinful flesh.

My repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins, and the destruction of the old man, and rebirth from God' seed, have delivered me from that state.
Thanks be to God !

If your old man is gone, then why are you still in Arizona instead of heaven?

If you have His righteousness, you are righteous !
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Rejoice in the freedom from sin in Christ !

You're deceiving yourself.

 

[Corinth77777]

There is a false teaching that has infected some here and on other boards. here are some scriptural vaccines against it.
from TGC Australia edition;
How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical​

However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too​

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

Hi, for sake of argument:
And I can say I've not made it.

But I would never say what God can or cannot do.
Just because it is wriiten that no one is without sin. Does that mean they are remaining in a state of sin after receiving the Spirit. Has not one been Judicially declared righteous. And on that thought given what we need to grow up?

I heard hopeful or somebody's name like that preaching this. And what I grasp was seeing there is no sin in Christ. One is either operating in belief or unbelief.

If one is in Christ, and there is no condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit. And the person has peace with God because they are trusting Jesus then why can't they make the claim they are sinless. Sinless in my opinion is a place of a clear conscience before God. Does not scripture say if by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live?


While one's bodies may still be waiting redemption. Isn't that one key that God wants to preserve the whole body soul and Spirit on the day of His coming.

I also look at Enoch and Elijah or those who walked with God that did not die but were taken. Does scripture say what happened to them?

So I am not one to say what God can do when we remain in His Love. One might argue the meaning of sinless perfection.
Since perfection in my memory means mature or fully grown.
Fully grown in Love, or having a mature character.

In 2 Corinthians or Ephesians it says: 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Is this suppose to happen after we are physically dead? Or as we present our bodies in this life as dead to sin and alive to God?

If we think we are going to sin then doesn't that also eradicate faith, as one still trys to work and think of what we can do in our own ability? Denying then what God can do?

Anyway just trying to see another side, don't eat me alive.

 

[Corinth77777]

Hi, for sake of argument:
And I can say I've not made it.

But I would never say what God can or cannot do.
Just because it is wriiten that no one is without sin. Does that mean they are remaining in a state of sin after receiving the Spirit. Has not one been Judicially declared righteous. And on that thought given what we need to grow up?

I heard hopeful or somebody's name like that preaching this. And what I grasp was seeing there is no sin in Christ. One is either operating in belief or unbelief.

If one is in Christ, and there is no condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit. And the person has peace with God because they are trusting Jesus then why can't they make the claim they are sinless. Sinless in my opinion is a place of a clear conscience before God. Does not scripture say if by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live?


While one's bodies may still be waiting redemption. Isn't that one key that God wants to preserve the whole body soul and Spirit on the day of His coming.

I also look at Enoch and Elijah or those who walked with God that did not die but were taken. Does scripture say what happened to them?

So I am not one to say what God can do when we remain in His Love. One might argue the meaning of sinless perfection.
Since perfection in my memory means mature or fully grown.
Fully grown in Love, or having a mature character.

In 2 Corinthians or Ephesians it says: 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Is this suppose to happen after we are physically dead? Or as we present our bodies in this life as dead to sin and alive to God?

If we think we are going to sin then doesn't that also eradicate faith, as one still trys to work and think of what we can do in our own ability? Denying then what God can do?

Anyway just trying to see another side, don't eat me alive.

I have an upcoming favorite scripture from Hebrews :
Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

 

[Corinth77777]

Hey All,
Reddogs, I don't believe in probation. I believe Iwas saved the moment Jesus came into my heart. Jesus promised He would never throw me away.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I trust His promise.

Keep walking everybody.
Taz

I heard somone say that one can be saved from the penalty, presence, and power of sin.
So which one Josef are you referring to?

 

[Corinth77777]

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Dang is this really where we are?
The Form would be a belief that something is true without intentions to follow. Therefore Can one trully claim Christianity without following? Is there Christianity that doesn't include the making of a disciple?

Sound like we need to turn away from ourselves. Still fixed on running our own lives.

 

[Josef]

I heard somone say that one can be saved from the penalty, presence, and power of sin.
So which one Josef are you referring to?

Hey All,
All!

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

All unrighteousness.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Corinth77777]

Hey All,
All!

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

All unrighteousness.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,

Reddogs, I don't believe in probation. I believe Iwas saved the moment Jesus came into my heart. Jesus promised He would never throw me away.

 

[Josef]

The tax collector confesses his sin, he doesn't deceive himself by claiming he's sinless, and the text never says he went home sinless, it only says he went home justified.

Why does it matter to you since you believe you're already righteous?

You do realize that this is the same kind of loaded question like "have you stopped cheating on your spouse?" To answer your question, I don't pretend that I have no sin, nor do I try to justify myself, I confess my sins like the tax collector and pray for God's intercession.

No you don't. You discredit the Lord for his atonement on the cross by shamelessly claiming you're already sinless.

Your posts only show your sin of pride, none of them exhort any obedience to God. If you were obedient to God you'd stop promoting the heresy of sinless perfection and repent your sin of promoting it.

Then you're still following Nietzsche who taught sinless nature, not Jesus who died for our sinful nature. Keep denying it as you want.

Christ doesn't boast he has no sin, even though he indeed has no sin.

I'm chastening you who refuse God's chastening for you by claiming you have no sin and no need for disciplining.

It's not "their action". It's OUR action. We're living in an age of Laodicea where the whole church is being complacent with this attitude. As long as you pretend this is written to somebody else and irrelevant to you, you have no ear to hear.

Hey All,
Carry_Your_Name, may I just add:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

To Corith77777, and Hopeful 2, and anyone else that holds to this false teaching of sinless perfection:

If we are sinless why do we have need of an advocate?
Why does John give a solution for a problem if it never happens?
Why does John include himself in the problem if he never experienced sin?
Are you saying you are better than John in your understanding of what sin is?

I also call it false because of what John wrote, and how he wrote it.

John wrote what the Holy Spirit told him to. (Or actually as the Holy Spirit moved him. [2 Peter 1:21] How cool would that have been?)

So what you are saying (Corith77777, and Hopeful 2) goes against known Scripture.

As such, it goes against what the Holy Spirit taught us through John.
This is why I am having trouble with what you guys are saying.
I cannot accept what Scripture clearly tells me is not true.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Corinth77777]

Hey All,
Carry_Your_Name, may I just add:

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

To Corith77777, and Hopeful 2, and anyone else that holds to this false teaching of sinless perfection:

I'd rather you respond to what I wrote to explain where my fslse teaching is.
Especially sense I do not even know where I stand.
And in order to know where one stands, I figure one might want to define "Sinless Perfection."
People might want to have all the information before they figure out what they stand on or deny something that speaks possibilities.

For me if I do not even enquire in on this subject it does not make me or break me. But why do you suppose many people do not post that might be interested? Just maybe people like you are ready to attack them for just seeking an answer. One could say your thought is the "H" word. Because you are saying the word does not mean what it says. "Sin not" are you telling me He is saying don't go practice sin? Plz answer here

If we are sinless why do we have need of an advocate?

Apart from being in Christ , and having received the Spirit of God how could one even Claim maturiy: telio One is brought into the body of Christ when they have believed. And the Spirit teaches us to remain in Him where He has given us everything we need pertaining to life and Godliness

Why does John give a solution for a problem if it never happens?
Why does John include himself in the problem if he never experienced sin?

""If"" is a Hypothetical word.

And no one is saying you don't need to be in Christ, For we cannot do anything without Him. If we are walking in the light the blood of Jesus cleanses us. And this is what gives us a clear conscience before God. For if you are cleansed you have peace with God, and can be in fellowship with Him maybe through the Saints He resides in Himself.

Are you saying you are better than John in your understanding of what sin is?

I already said I haven't made it...lol

I also call it false because of what John wrote, and how he wrote it.

John wrote what the Holy Spirit told him to. (Or actually as the Holy Spirit moved him. [2 Peter 1:21] How cool would that have been?)

Yeay but it says " if you sin" Does that have to mean they are going to? Nope! And scripture He wrote is still true.

So what you are saying (Corith77777, and Hopeful 2) goes against known Scripture.

No not for me, and I doubt you even read what I said. But what you say does. You are saying scripture does not say what it means..When He says. " be perfect as I am perfect", or "sin not"
You are saying God is telling a fib, that He is telling us something we really cannot do with the Spirit.

As such, it goes against what the Holy Spirit taught us through John.
This is why I am having trouble with what you guys are saying.

You did not read what I said, nor does the Hypothetical "if" word saying that a person is going to sin. That person could get saved and get hit by a bull right after Jesus "came into His heart."

I cannot accept what Scripture clearly tells me is not true.

I don't know how you can use a Hypothetical statement and most definitely believe that the use of it means the person is going to sin.

Thats like telling your wife "if" I get in a car accident while driving to work, I wont go to work. DOES THAT SHOW FOR SURE HE WILL BE IN AN ACCIDENT THAT DAY? Um of course not.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Corith77777,

I apologize for including you in post #258.
I made a mistake.

I may have misunderstood you.
There is a post, #257, that has you quoting me twice. But there is no commentary attached to the quote. It is below where I addressed you directly #256. (I tried to get it wholly into this post but I failed. So I will add it manually.)

"Hey All,
All!

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

All unrighteousness.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,"

Plus this from an earlier post to reddogs was also quoted.

"Josef said

Reddogs, I don't believe in probation. I believe Iwas saved the moment Jesus came into my heart. Jesus promised He would never throw me away."

So I read both quotes and tried to figure out if I said something contradictory, or just flat out wrong. I could not see it.

My mistake was not asking you what you meant. Instead, I incorrectly lumped you in with hopeful 2. I am sorry about that. Please forgive me.

Actually, in a way way watered down way, we are showing a relationship type of forgiveness.(presuming of course that you forgive me)
We are brothers, or brother/sister in Christ. I have sinned against you making you out to be something you are not. Your option, as a believer, is to either accept my forgiveness, or reject it.

This is also what I mean when I say sinless perfection is not possible in this flesh. I didn't set out to hurt your feelings Corinth77777. But I did.
I believe God left us like this, having a sin nature, for a reason.

Agape is God's love toward us. When we forgive others, that is when believers can experience Agape for ourselves. That is the witness of the believer.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz