There Are No Atheists

[Brother Mike]

Is that what you think God thinks, that He doesn't need to prove Himself?

I actually posted scripture Deborah. What are you on about now?

 

[Milk-Drops]

As you mentioned and I said, a whole lot of complex thinking has to go into someone being self deceived. There should be no argument that creates a logic trap to start.

The logic trap is that the Bible states that everyone really believes in God and are just lying. The backing arguments is that the Bible has to be true, the reason is because the Bible says so. That is the trap. Things can prove themselves.

As for people that claim the don't believe in a god. The Word of God can not be proved to be by the Holy Spirit. They are ignorant of the fact that God does not have to prove anything.

Those are 2 separate arguments. God not having to prove himself does not mean that people believe he is actually there.

Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
(1Th 5:19-21)

We are told to prove.

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
(Psa 34:8)

We are told to step out and taste.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
(Joh 17:20)

The problem is that God is undefinable, so it is technically no one can really believe or disbelieve in him because no one really can solidly define what God is, so God seems to be more a collection of concepts than an actual being. So if you accept a concept, then technically you accept that god exists, but then it becomes so semantic and legalistic that means everyone believes in everything and nothing at the same time. It takes all the meaning out of words.

We are told to believe on Jesus through the Word.

So if you don't accept that the word is true, then you don't believe in Jesus, so boom, Atheists exist.

The acid test to know Our God is real, is if our God does what he said he would do in His Word. We have to activate those test ourselves and choose to believe first.

Hindus and Muslims use the same tests. In Hinduism Krishna ( a descended god of Vishnu) uses the same argument that Paul uses to say that all know the true way to Nirvana and Karma in their heart. Therefore everyone believes in the Hindu god Krishna. Both you and the Hindus will just claim the other is deceived. Its a logic trap.

If the manual said plug this in, and push this button, make sure that is on correctly and we don't do what the manual said, then it's ignorance that takes the product back claiming it don't work.

The manual example is bad because the Manual is used on the outside source ( the machine). The Bible is claiming that God is real because the Bible says that he is true.

Ignoring the manual I am talking about will cost you more than just a product not working.A cost you can't recover, or afford.

Mike

Here is another problem with our analogy. even If I don't have the manual, I still have the object. I don't need the manual to prove the object exists, I can show the object refereed to in the manual to people. We can hold it, we can touch it, we can taste it, we can see it. You are referring to action when you are defining God. You are attributing things to God. Proving a thing doesn't make God more probable.


This is the confusion. Lets use an argument from Paul. Paul states we know in our hearts god is real due to our moral compass. Paul is attributing Morality to God. Paul says that a fool knows that in his heart that God exists, the problem is that Paul is switching morality and God. They become interchangeable in Paul's argument so Paul has created a diversion ( I don't think on purpose, its just a flaw in human thinking that was figured out by the greek masters) so that instead of demonstrating God, he tries to get the person to try and claim that people don't have a moral compass


That is why I don't accept the claim that no atheists exist.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Sounds like you never were quickened..

tob

How would even verify that? This would mean no one in my State is quickened and that causes a massive problem because that would lead to no one really knowing if they are right or wrong. These types of arguments make it impossible to then be a Christian. There will always be an excuse.

 

[turnorburn]

How would even verify that? This would mean no one in my State is quickened and that causes a massive problem because that would lead to no one really knowing if they are right or wrong. These types of arguments make it impossible to then be a Christian. There will always be an excuse.

What do you think is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

tob

 

[Brother Mike]

The logic trap is that the Bible states that everyone really believes in God and are just lying. The backing arguments is that the Bible has to be true, the reason is because the Bible says so. That is the trap. Things can prove themselves.

Those are 2 separate arguments. God not having to prove himself does not mean that people believe he is actually there.

The problem is that God is undefinable, so it is technically no one can really believe or disbelieve in him because no one really can solidly define what God is, so God seems to be more a collection of concepts than an actual being. So if you accept a concept, then technically you accept that god exists, but then it becomes so semantic and legalistic that means everyone believes in everything and nothing at the same time. It takes all the meaning out of words.

So if you don't accept that the word is true, then you don't believe in Jesus, so boom, Atheists exist.

Hindus and Muslims use the same tests. In Hinduism Krishna ( a descended god of Vishnu) uses the same argument that Paul uses to say that all know the true way to Nirvana and Karma in their heart. Therefore everyone believes in the Hindu god Krishna. Both you and the Hindus will just claim the other is deceived. Its a logic trap.

The manual example is bad because the Manual is used on the outside source ( the machine). The Bible is claiming that God is real because the Bible says that he is true.

Here is another problem with our analogy. even If I don't have the manual, I still have the object. I don't need the manual to prove the object exists, I can show the object refereed to in the manual to people. We can hold it, we can touch it, we can taste it, we can see it. You are referring to action when you are defining God. You are attributing things to God. Proving a thing doesn't make God more probable.


This is the confusion. Lets use an argument from Paul. Paul states we know in our hearts god is real due to our moral compass. Paul is attributing Morality to God. Paul says that a fool knows that in his heart that God exists, the problem is that Paul is switching morality and God. They become interchangeable in Paul's argument so Paul has created a diversion ( I don't think on purpose, its just a flaw in human thinking that was figured out by the greek masters) so that instead of demonstrating God, he tries to get the person to try and claim that people don't have a moral compass


That is why I don't accept the claim that no atheists exist.

The manual example is bad because the Manual is used on the outside source ( the machine). The Bible is claiming that God is real because the Bible says that he is true.

We are not using the manual to prove something is real, you missed my point. I said if God is real, and you follow the manual you will get results that normally could not be obtained.

 

[Deborah13]

I actually posted scripture Deborah. What are you on about now?

The question does not dispute any of your scriptures that say what we are suppose to do.
I was just asking you to explain what you meant by that statement, but forget I asked.

 

[Milk-Drops]

What do you think is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

tob

That didn't solve the problem of it being Impossible to be a Christian. Its just saying that some will think they are Christian when they aren't but it doesn't explain how someone is a Christian. The next argument is the fruits argument which is vague and up for interpretation, but there still isn't anything to judge it by.

 

[turnorburn]

That didn't solve the problem of it being Impossible to be a Christian. Its just saying that some will think they are Christian when they aren't but it doesn't explain how someone is a Christian. The next argument is the fruits argument which is vague and up for interpretation, but there still isn't anything to judge it by.

It solves the problem quite remarkably what does the second verse say?

tob

 

[Milk-Drops]

We are not using the manual to prove something is real,

You were saying earlier that you were using scripture to variety the existence of God.

you missed my point.

Because your point is muddled in an example that doesn't fit.

I said if God is real, and you follow the manual you will get results that normally could not be obtained.

I'm going to try and show you what this argument would look like to an atheist.

Lets say I went over to your house and you told me about this awesome toast you enjoy eating. We walk into your kitchen and you point to an empty space on your counter and you say that there is a toaster there. I don't see a toaster. I wave my hand in the area and check the lighting, but I still can't find any toaster. You then hand me a manual for this toaster and tell me if I follow it I will get my toast. I read the manual ( I've read the Bible front to back several times ) and do the actions the manual says. Yet no toaster appears or does toast come out. I point this out and you refer to parts of the manual that claim that I believe there is a toaster and I'm just lying. At that point the toaster existing doesn't even matter, the toaster doesn't really mean anything, its a vehicle for a larger concept. Its a paradox, there is both a toaster and not a toaster because no one can define the toaster. Its a waste of time and energy.

 

[Milk-Drops]

It solves the problem quite remarkably what does the second verse say?

tob

That Jesus will depart from them, still doesn't prove that Jesus/ God is actually there or that people do believe in him.

I'm an Atheist because no one can demonstrate that God is actually there. If you can demonstrate God without using an abstraction, then you would have an actual argument. Otherwise you just have a metaphorical toaster.

 

[turnorburn]

That Jesus will depart from them, still doesn't prove that Jesus/ God is actually there or that people do believe in him.

I'm an Atheist because no one can demonstrate that God is actually there. If you can demonstrate God without using an abstraction, then you would have an actual argument. Otherwise you just have a metaphorical toaster.

That's the second time you left out the most important part, read the entire verse, what does it say?

tob

 

[Milk-Drops]

What do you think is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?

People will claim to know God.
I already acknowledged this. Twice.

and in thy name have cast out devils?

People will think they did God's work.
You still need to answer my question, how do you know they are doing God's work?

and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Same as above, How do you differentiate? How do you know that you aren't deceived?

23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

tob

Yep I already acknowledged this as well. It says Jesus will turn those away who do not truly follow hims. Yet no one in my 26 years of being alive been able to do the simplest thing.

What does it objectively mean to be a Christian and follow Jesus/God, how do we even know he is there?

I'm still an Atheist because every answer turns into a circular argument or an abstraction. Its Impossible to demonstrate Jesus/God or know if you are actually doing it right because your own scripture says that they won't know until the end.

Its Impossible. You may as well trying to get rich playing roulette at a casino.

 

[turnorburn]

People will claim to know God.
I already acknowledged this. Twice.
People will think they did God's work.
You still need to answer my question, how do you know they are doing God's work?

Same as above, How do you differentiate? How do you know that you aren't deceived?

[qutoe]23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

tob

Yep I already acknowledged this as well. It says Jesus will turn those away who do not truly follow hims. Yet no one in my 26 years of being alive been able to do the simplest thing.

What does it objectively mean to be a Christian and follow Jesus/God, how do we even know he is there?

I'm still an Atheist because every answer turns into a circular argument or an abstraction. Its Impossible to demonstrate Jesus/God or know if you are actually doing it right because your own scripture says that they won't know until the end.

Its Impossible. You may as well trying to get rich playing roulette at a casino.[/QUOTE]

Your an Atheist because you don't want to know him..

tob

 

[Milk-Drops]

At the end of the day, I'm just trying to show how some arguments are bad. If you guys believe in God/Jesus. That is awesome, good for you, no sarcasm. Its just that no matter what Paul or Si says, there are in fact people who do not believe in God/Jesus. Millions, if not Billions actually.

 

[turnorburn]

At the end of the day, I'm just trying to show how some arguments are bad. If you guys believe in God/Jesus. That is awesome, good for you, no sarcasm. Its just that no matter what Paul or Si says, there are in fact people who do not believe in God/Jesus. Millions, if not Billions actually.

Adam and Eve really messed things up didn't they..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

You are a sandwich. You are yet you don't accept it. Its impossible for you to not know you are a sandwich. Why can't you accept being a sandwich?

Welcome to the stalemate, I can twist it around to mean you are a sandwich. That is the flaw in your argument, it can be used with anything and doesn't accomplish anything.

You can't know him because you are like the rest of us were "dead in trespasses and sins"

tob

 

[turnorburn]

i can't edit that last post to include this..

Ephesians 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

tob

 

[jasonc]

what is the point? he has said he doesn't believe. sometimes walking away is the best thing we can do. honeslty I wasn't saved by any logical argument . im not against apolegetics but the man isn't going to see it , prayer will change that. but let him be.

of the two here that have responded to him. I have debated him, hurt him, been hurt as well. so I do think I might know him a bit.

 

[turnorburn]

i know Jason that's exactly what i did but when i see there's a bridge out ahead that leads to eternal damnation i try my best to send up as many warning flares that i can..

tob

 

[jasonc]

i know Jason that's exactly what i did but when i see there's a bridge out ahead that leads to eternal damnation i try my best to send up as many warning flares that i can..

tob

you have already told him. did jesus say much to the Pharisees? it bet its less then 5 times in the record. he might have said more but he is recorded of saying it five times.

ever heard of casting your pearls? I have seen my brother do this and argue. I told him, ban them trolls you are feeding them. what milk drops is posting is tame to what my brother had to deal with and it was done politely to him. for every argument you have you will also feed them material to dissect and defeat. that is where we must walk away.