There Are No Atheists

[Milk-Drops]

Thank you for sharing that, but I never experienced the loss and issues you had. Lot's of situations it looked like it might end up like that.

There is a difference in actually Knowing the Lord, and just learning about the Lord though knowledge. One is personal, one is not.

It's not possible to pass off some things I went though as coincidence and it would have worked out anyway. It's not possible to hear God and follow though and have it end up Like God said, when things don't look like it would work out at all.

I am sorry you got stuck in religion that is powerless, but that is not God's fault. We have all kinds of posters here that have very little power of the Holy Spirit in their life.

But when God says turn right, and I am driving left, and tells me to go down this street, now slow down look for a man, and I do.
Find out the man was looking for his lost nephew in tears and handing out flyers. Then the Lord tells me, "Tell him, His nephew is safe, He will be found tomorrow, and the Nephew is found the next day." With lots of examples of this.

Then saying there is no God, must mean your very Wrong, or a few of us are crazy and have some physic abilities with the power to heal, and we just call it God.

Understand my position.

I think a God makes the most sense to you and that is why you believe what you believe. The current concept of God or gods don't make sense to me and that is why I don't believe. I don't blame god for anything because I simply don't believe that he is there, or is what we have described him/it. whatever as.

 

[Eugene]

What do you think is Jesus saying here?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

tob

Dear Brother turnorburn, Jesus here is speaking of judging our brother, and of course I realize you don’t believe in the eternal security of the believer, but considering OSAS the church is first to receive judgment as recorded in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.
1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Now I ask what is available to the believer worthy of reward, and it is the proximity (Round about, and in the midst of the throne), the promise (Ruling, reigning, and being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world) , and most of all becoming the bride of Christ (Php 3:8). Not all believers qualify!

E.g., Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready (Rev 19:7) went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven (Some remain on earth – Ten were virgin, but only five qualified to even be at the wedding); but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[turnorburn]

Judaism from being from its inception at Horeb. I'm giving that as that where the torah was written.that takes faith but the chassidics do teach that concept of limited free will.I would have to read what the vah is again

What happened to your earlier statement Jason?

what is the point? he has said he doesn't believe. sometimes walking away is the best thing we can do. honeslty I wasn't saved by any logical argument . im not against apolegetics but the man isn't going to see it , prayer will change that. but let him be.

of the two here that have responded to him. I have debated him, hurt him, been hurt as well. so I do think I might know him a bit.

tob

 

[turnorburn]

Dear Brother turnorburn, Jesus here is speaking of judging our brother, and of course I realize you don’t believe in the eternal security of the believer, but considering OSAS the church is first to receive judgment as recorded in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.
1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Now I ask what is available to the believer worthy of reward, and it is the proximity (Round about, and in the midst of the throne), the promise (Ruling, reigning, and being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world) , and most of all becoming the bride of Christ (Php 3:8). Not all believers qualify!

E.g., Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready (Rev 19:7) went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven (Some remain on earth – Ten were virgin, but only five qualified to even be at the wedding); but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Who told you i didn't believe in the eternal security of a believer Eugene?

tob

 

[Milk-Drops]

This is what I was getting at. Atheists simply redefine what they aren't supposed to believe exists in the first place.

Not really. Many of my friends and I simply don't believe in the concept of God put forth by christianity. I definitely don't believe in an all powerful being that has a personal interest in human lives. I don't think the God of the Bible actually exists, I think we as humans invented him to explain what we didn't understand at the time and many of the Biblical stories started out as stories and parables, but became very much ingrained into the culture that they became defacto explanations of how things happened.

When it comes right down to it, they don't truly believe that there is nothing outside of this creation.

I actually know a few people that don't believe in anything past our observed existence. They usually just don't get involved with debates because they just plain out don't care.

What they are is actually more agnostic than they are atheist. Agnostics simply don't know. But an atheist claims he knows. But I've never met an atheist who knew there was no God. I've met lots who say they don't know and, therefore, don't think so.

The term agnostic is sticky because in philosophy agnosticism isn't a position itself but a descriptor. An agnostic can lean more theist or atheist depending on their position on knowledge. A gnostic atheist would be someone who definitively says there is no God and give a reason. An agnostic Atheist is someone who is convinced there isn't a God based on a lack of evidence but is willing to listen to arguments and be persuaded. There is a reason I jumped to computer science instead of perusing religious studies.

 

[Milk-Drops]

That is not a statement an atheist would make. That is a statement an agnostic would make. For that matter, Jews, Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists "aren't convinced by Christian apologetic."

As I mentioned above to Jethro, Agnosticism is more of an additional clarification than a position itself.

It is true that no one can demonstrate the existence of God. Likewise, no one can demonstrate the non-existence of God.

Logically a negative is impossible to prove because of probability. The burden of proof lies with the person making the positive claim. Otherwise its a fruitless argument. I don't go around yelling God doesn't exist because it solves nothing. I ask people why they believe and then discuss the positive assertion.

However, anyone can evaluate the evidence and arguments and make an informed leap of faith in one direction or the other. Some people find the evidence and arguments for God compelling and become believers. Some find the evidence and arguments compelling in the other direction and become atheists. Some don't find the evidence and arguments compelling in either direction and remain agnostics.

Being convinced leads to Gonsticism and being skeptical leads to Agnosticism. I really don't miss philosophy class.

The quotes from Si Robertson are simply silly. Of course there are atheists - people who have seriously evaluated the evidence and arguments and come to deeply believe that the materialistic paradigm is the best explanation for reality. There are, of course, also "pretend" atheists who really haven't given much thought to the issue at all but adopt an atheist pose to irritate Christians, shock their parents, seem hip, or whatever; ditto for pretend Christians who have their own agendas and motives.

I fall into the former because I reached my position through study and eventually apathy after spending a lot of time and just reaching the point where It stopped being interesting.

There are "gut-level" atheists and believers as well - they don't really give much thought to the matter one way or the other but intuitively believe or disbelieve ... or have been brainwashed since childhood or college into believing or disbelieving ... or whatever.

In my experience, people who say they aren't convinced by Christian apologetics - or say they don't believe in UFOs or ghosts, for that matter - have seldom done the legwork to be able to make such a statement. To be blunt, they really don't know what they are talking about. They have simply landed within a particular community of skeptics, debunkers or non-believers and learned to parrot what the leaders of that community say. It's the easy way out, but it seldom leads to Truth.

I read pretty much every holy book known to man and did a lot of research and work in College in Biology labs and kept up with a lot of topics and took several high level science courses. None of my classes made claims for or against god's existence, we all pretty much formed our own thoughts.

Milk-Drop, you sound to me like Bart Ehrman and a host of others for whom Christianity "didn't live up to its billing" and thus you threw out Baby Jesus with the bathwater and adopted an atheist/agnostic stance. What passes for Christianity in America and most other places absolutely doesn't live up to its billing; I don't believe it has much of anything at all to do with what Jesus was talking about. If Christianity "living up to its billing" were my criterion for being a Christian, I would've joined the agnostics or become a Buddhist long ago. Ditto for "the world not being the way I would design it if I were God" - everyone is troubled by the state of the world, but Christianity has what seems to me to be a more convincing explanation than materialism or any other religion.

Well, I'm tired of trying to convince people about what I actually think because I don't think most even listen to me when I try to explain. I think many are just ready to file others away in simple boxes because its easier. Believe it or not I really don't define myself as Atheist outside of religous boards because its not a fully descriptive term. I'm more of a Secular Humanist or Objectivist. Mainly because these lables are actually descriptive of what I believe.

For me, the equation is simply (1) I believe the best evidence points toward consciousness existing independently of the brain and surviving bodily death and toward humans being created beings existing within a created reality (which gets me to Some Sort of God); (2) I believe Christianity provides the best explanation for the reality I experience and observe on a daily basis (which gets me to Christianity); and (3) having made the leap of faith into Christianity, I believe I have seen its reality unfold in my life (in truly "miraculous" ways that would otherwise be very difficult to explain). You might do the same legwork I've done over the past 50 years, never get past stage 1 and remain a convinced atheist - who knows? But if your current stance is more in the vein of thinking that Christianity didn't live up to its billing or that the world you have experienced doesn't mesh with the one you think God should have created, I hope you'll keep digging for answers and won't be satisfied with your current stance just because you've become comfortable in it.

Have a good night.

 

[Eugene]

Who told you i didn't believe in the eternal security of a believer Eugene?
tob

Hi brother turnorburn, from discussions over the years even on different forums I was of that opinion. If I am incorrect it is of utmost pleasure I am so, and apologize.

 

[jasonc]

What happened to your earlier statement Jason?

what is the point? he has said he doesn't believe. sometimes walking away is the best thing we can do. honeslty I wasn't saved by any logical argument . im not against apolegetics but the man isn't going to see it , prayer will change that. but let him be.

of the two here that have responded to him. I have debated him, hurt him, been hurt as well. so I do think I might know him a bit.

tob

I made a statement of verification that Christianity isn't the only the religion with free will. he responded to that statement. I then said im going from their point of start. that is all.

 

[jasonc]

What happened to your earlier statement Jason?

what is the point? he has said he doesn't believe. sometimes walking away is the best thing we can do. honeslty I wasn't saved by any logical argument . im not against apolegetics but the man isn't going to see it , prayer will change that. but let him be.

of the two here that have responded to him. I have debated him, hurt him, been hurt as well. so I do think I might know him a bit.

tob

I made a statement of verification that Christianity isn't the only the religion with free will. he responded to that statement. I then said im going from their point of start. that is all.

 

[Lewis]

If you really want to blow your mind, consider what was before there was something created. What did God do before that? Where did he come and go forth from? What occupied his mind when there was nothing?

I have blown fuses for years trying to figure that out or picture nothingness or how did God come into being. Now the thing is He always was, and trying to figure out that God has no beginning will make you pop your transitors

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't blame god for anything because I simply don't believe that he is there, or is what we have described him/it. whatever as.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
I can tell you sense the very thing the atheist is sure does not exist.
I see this all the time.

 

[Lewis]

Why when atheists, are thrown of clifs or fall out of a 20 stiry window, they scream God's name ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you missed the whole 7 years of being a devote Christian and wanting to possibly become a pastor. I don't think you realize what all I did or went through. I think you want a quick answer where these is none. There wasn't one thing that deconverted me, there wasn't a single event. There wasn't a single argument. Little things over several years chipped away at my faith.

The thing that a lot of people don't understand is that faith is not 'not knowing but deciding it's true anyway'. Faith is the sure conviction of God's forgiveness offered to the world. Faith in God means KNOWING he has forgiven your sins through Jesus Christ.

That being said, I find it amazing that people who say they had faith (knew their sins were forgiven) and walked accordingly, and may have even received a spiritual gift, then abandon it in favor of going back to the things and ways of the world.

The older I get the more I see the futility of the things of the world. I don't grow fonder of them. I personally can't imagine giving up the forgiveness of my sins and reconciliation with God to go back to the temporary, ultimately unfulfilling and frustrating ways of the world. That's why former believers intrigue me. I don't know why someone would abandon eternal treasure in favor of temporary fleshly satisfaction. But I know many do.