There Are No Atheists

[Kenny_ms]

What Paul said is sort of complex, but he stated.
1) They clearly did see
2) God did reveal to them
3) All things made that are invisible, are Clearly understood by the things made.
4) They have no excuse, did not retain God in Knowledge, despite creation itself screaming "There is A God!!!!"

I was thinking along the lines of one or more of those verses when I read the title of this post. I found the Duck guy (don't watch the show) hard to listen so didn't get that far in the video.

Okay.

 

[Brother Mike]

The question does not dispute any of your scriptures that say what we are suppose to do.
I was just asking you to explain what you meant by that statement, but forget I asked.

I think it was along the lines of God having to prove to someone He is real. For years I begged Jesus to show me he was real, no results. It was not until I got in serious trouble and facing 18-90 years in prison, then I started to get in the Word. I stopped on the unjust Judge Parable, and just read that over and over for 7 months, no proof of God at all, but I found in scripture what I really needed.

The Word is confirmed by signs following......................... No faith in Word, no confirmation.

That is what I was saying.

 

[Brother Mike]

You were saying earlier that you were using scripture to variety the existence of God.

Because your point is muddled in an example that doesn't fit.

I'm going to try and show you what this argument would look like to an atheist.

Lets say I went over to your house and you told me about this awesome toast you enjoy eating. We walk into your kitchen and you point to an empty space on your counter and you say that there is a toaster there. I don't see a toaster. I wave my hand in the area and check the lighting, but I still can't find any toaster. You then hand me a manual for this toaster and tell me if I follow it I will get my toast. I read the manual ( I've read the Bible front to back several times ) and do the actions the manual says. Yet no toaster appears or does toast come out. I point this out and you refer to parts of the manual that claim that I believe there is a toaster and I'm just lying. At that point the toaster existing doesn't even matter, the toaster doesn't really mean anything, its a vehicle for a larger concept. Its a paradox, there is both a toaster and not a toaster because no one can define the toaster. Its a waste of time and energy.

Ok, lets make it more simple................ What Scripture did you believe God for, that God did not perform or help you with.

Where did God fail on His part in your life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Milk-Drops , perhaps there is a misunderstanding.
It's not that atheists really do believe in the God of the Bible when they say they don't. I think the proper argument is that atheists know there is a superior intelligence out there, but what they don't do, or can't do, is define that being according to the Bible. I for one am not arguing that all atheists know that God, as Christians define him, truly exists. No. My experience has shown that atheists know there is someone out there controlling all this but have chosen not to understand him according to what the Bible says.

Just curious, did you have an actual experience with something that fueled the extent to which you were involved with Christianity in the past? Or was it simply a pure blind faith thing?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Milk-Drops , perhaps there is a misunderstanding.
It's not that atheists really do believe in the God of the Bible when they say they don't. I think the proper argument is that atheists know there is a superior intelligence out there, but what they don't do, or can't do, is define that being according to the Bible. I for one am not arguing that all atheists know that God, as Christians define him, truly exists. No. My experience has shown that atheists know there is someone out there controlling all this but have chosen not to understand him according to what the Bible says.

Just curious, did you have an actual experience with something that fueled the extent to which you were involved with Christianity in the past? Or was it simply a pure blind faith thing?

I was saved after I had a breakdown in the 5th grade. I suffered from some child abuse from 2 teachers and became a recluse and socially withdrawn. I went to a christian School from 5th grade onward and was very involved in the church, learned a lot and it helped me deal immensely with a lot of my issues caused by the abuse. I thought I had a calling and wanted to help others. I still help others today but due to some life events that happened post puberty combined with my obsession with studying and reading. I eventually fell away after some things stopped meshing and I couldn't reconcile it anymore.

To me and many of my non believer friends, we don't believe in the Christian God because he doesn't make any sense to us. We are open to the possibility of a god existing, but just not convinced by Christian apologetic. Most of us have moved past the word god because the term itself has a ton of baggage attached to it.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Ok, lets make it more simple................ What Scripture did you believe God for, that God did not perform or help you with.

Where did God fail on His part in your life.

Its not really that simple. There was a ton of stuff that ticked away until eventually I just couldn't believe it all anymore.
Some of it was due to logical falacies, reading the whole thing and then also reading several other holy books, the deeper I learned and explored physics, biology, and chemistry, breaking away from a heavily isolated evangelical church and meeting people that were atheists that were not these devil people i was told they were. Delving into philosophy. learning about historical inconsistencies with the Bible and how other cultures developed and have completely independent concepts of the world. Most churches I've ever been to having corruption or attracting narcissists that claimed to be true speakers of God and ended up hurting people I know with legit psychological and social disorders. Not to mention using their power to sleep around with 16 and 17 year old girls.

There are a lot of things, not just one or 2.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Most churches I've ever been to having corruption or attracting narcissists that claimed to be true speakers of God and ended up hurting people I know with legit psychological and social disorders. Not to mention using their power to sleep around with 16 and 17 year old girls.

From what I read, you are knowledgeable of the Bible so you must know, even the Bible admits people like that will always be around?....we despise them too but their actions hardly disprove God being what he is or from being at all.

Matter of fact they prove God is the God of the Bible, the one that lets us do as we please for the most part, at least for now. You know as well as we, he doesn't make puppets.

 

[Brother Mike]

Its not really that simple. There was a ton of stuff that ticked away until eventually I just couldn't believe it all anymore.
Some of it was due to logical falacies, reading the whole thing and then also reading several other holy books, the deeper I learned and explored physics, biology, and chemistry, breaking away from a heavily isolated evangelical church and meeting people that were atheists that were not these devil people i was told they were. Delving into philosophy. learning about historical inconsistencies with the Bible and how other cultures developed and have completely independent concepts of the world. Most churches I've ever been to having corruption or attracting narcissists that claimed to be true speakers of God and ended up hurting people I know with legit psychological and social disorders. Not to mention using their power to sleep around with 16 and 17 year old girls.

There are a lot of things, not just one or 2.

I have no idea what other churches doing wrong have to do with Scriptures. You lost me there.

OK, so you never enacted the Word to believe what God said with any scripture. That is not God's fault. You instead examine scripture with so called history and other things God never mentioned to do.

So your lack of following direction and getting zero results means there is no God.................... Not very smart, is that.

Man gets along OK, until man runs into something man can't solve. Like my son having terminal cancer, and my list is long.

 

[Milk-Drops]

From what I read, you are knowledgeable of the Bible so you must know, even the Bible admits people like that will always be around?....we despise them too but their actions hardly disprove God being what he is or from being at all.

Oh, I know that people being bad people don't disprove God or Christianity. I was just pointing out that a ton of stuff contributed to me leaving first the Church, Christianity, Religion, and then reevaluating how I classify myself. Some of this stuff made me doubt, some of this stuff made me search out other churches or denominations, and some of this blew my mind. Like I said a lot of stuff contributed.

Matter of fact they prove God is the God of the Bible, the one that lets us do as we please for the most part, at least for now. You know as well as we, he doesn't make puppets.

Until I started looking into other religions and history of religions, I used to think Christianity was unique this way, but there are several religions that have free will as their center. The whole free will thing is actually a modern apologetic.

 

[jasonc]

Oh, I know that people being bad people don't disprove God or Christianity. I was just pointing out that a ton of stuff contributed to me leaving first the Church, Christianity, Religion, and then reevaluating how I classify myself. Some of this stuff made me doubt, some of this stuff made me search out other churches or denominations, and some of this blew my mind. Like I said a lot of stuff contributed.

Until I started looking into other religions and history of religions, I used to think Christianity was unique this way, but there are several religions that have free will as their center. The whole free will thing is actually a modern apologetic.

one being Judaism.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I have no idea what other churches doing wrong have to do with Scriptures. You lost me there.

Well, If scripture says real christians act a certain way, and I have never met anyone who actually acts the way scripture commands, it questions scripture.

OK, so you never enacted the Word to believe what God said with any scripture.

I did from the ages 11 to 18.

That is not God's fault.

I don't blame something I don't believe in for that.

You instead examine scripture with so called history and other things God never mentioned to do.

Anything else in our lives, if we didn't take into historical or logical consideration, we'd get conned. You are aware that every major holy book all claim that their holy book is all you need right?

So your lack of following direction and getting zero results means there is no God....................

I think you missed the whole 7 years of being a devote Christian and wanting to possibly become a pastor. I don't think you realize what all I did or went through. I think you want a quick answer where these is none. There wasn't one thing that deconverted me, there wasn't a single event. There wasn't a single argument. Little things over several years chipped away at my faith.

Not very smart, is that.

Well, Ill put it this way. If everyone in town told you that you could get ice cream and love by standing by a door down the road, and you went and stood by the door and a person comes out and beats you with a baseball bat and tells you its your fault. Then your group tells you you just have to have faith and keep trying. Eventually you are going to wonder if there is anything more than the Baseball bat. It could work out for some people and they could be very happy. Christianity stopped making sense to me and lets just say that quite a few parts of my life improved when I left.

Man gets along OK, until man runs into something man can't solve. Like my son having terminal cancer, and my list is long.

I watched several relatives die of cancer. I've been on suicide hotlines at 4 in the morning in desperate fear, rejection, and agony because I couldn't understand why God couldn't make me not like other men the way my male friends liked women. I've seen congregations run people out who had legit mental disorders because the only explanation was that they didn't have enough faith in God. I've seen some horrible stuff and lived in a shack without electricity or water for several months. I've lived through some pretty horrible stuff as well, and I am not here to get into a peeing match about it. Lets just say that I used religion to talk myself out of suicide, but the thing is that it was also a small factor in why I ended up there in the first place.

I don't fault people for being religious and I don't harass them about it. I respect their wishes if they don't want to talk about it and I don't go around antagonizing street preachers or the like because I just simply don't care. I have personal reasons for being an atheist, and I don't expect others to come to my side just because of my personal story. I just give my 2 cents and usually leave it at that. I just felt like sharing today because I had a rough week and just wanted to get my mind off of some of my problems. Peace.

 

[Milk-Drops]

one being Judaism.

That depends on whether we are talking about before or after it was reformed from being poly theistic.

 

[jasonc]

That depends on whether we are talking about before or after it was reformed from being poly theistic.

Judaism from being from its inception at Horeb. I'm giving that as that where the torah was written.that takes faith but the chassidics do teach that concept of limited free will.I would have to read what the vah is again

 

[Kenny_ms]

Until I started looking into other religions and history of religions, I used to think Christianity was unique this way, but there are several religions that have free will as their center. The whole free will thing is actually a modern apologetic.

This doesn't help any I know but for some reason I never even considered ways other than the Biblical.

Too simple minded maybe, that or just satisfied.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well, If scripture says real christians act a certain way, and I have never met anyone who actually acts the way scripture commands, it questions scripture.

I did from the ages 11 to 18.

I don't blame something I don't believe in for that.

Anything else in our lives, if we didn't take into historical or logical consideration, we'd get conned. You are aware that every major holy book all claim that their holy book is all you need right?

I think you missed the whole 7 years of being a devote Christian and wanting to possibly become a pastor. I don't think you realize what all I did or went through. I think you want a quick answer where these is none. There wasn't one thing that deconverted me, there wasn't a single event. There wasn't a single argument. Little things over several years chipped away at my faith.

Well, Ill put it this way. If everyone in town told you that you could get ice cream and love by standing by a door down the road, and you went and stood by the door and a person comes out and beats you with a baseball bat and tells you its your fault. Then your group tells you you just have to have faith and keep trying. Eventually you are going to wonder if there is anything more than the Baseball bat. It could work out for some people and they could be very happy. Christianity stopped making sense to me and lets just say that quite a few parts of my life improved when I left.

I watched several relatives die of cancer. I've been on suicide hotlines at 4 in the morning in desperate fear, rejection, and agony because I couldn't understand why God couldn't make me not like other men the way my male friends liked women. I've seen congregations run people out who had legit mental disorders because the only explanation was that they didn't have enough faith in God. I've seen some horrible stuff and lived in a shack without electricity or water for several months. I've lived through some pretty horrible stuff as well, and I am not here to get into a peeing match about it. Lets just say that I used religion to talk myself out of suicide, but the thing is that it was also a small factor in why I ended up there in the first place.

I don't fault people for being religious and I don't harass them about it. I respect their wishes if they don't want to talk about it and I don't go around antagonizing street preachers or the like because I just simply don't care. I have personal reasons for being an atheist, and I don't expect others to come to my side just because of my personal story. I just give my 2 cents and usually leave it at that. I just felt like sharing today because I had a rough week and just wanted to get my mind off of some of my problems. Peace.

Thank you for sharing that, but I never experienced the loss and issues you had. Lot's of situations it looked like it might end up like that.

There is a difference in actually Knowing the Lord, and just learning about the Lord though knowledge. One is personal, one is not.

It's not possible to pass off some things I went though as coincidence and it would have worked out anyway. It's not possible to hear God and follow though and have it end up Like God said, when things don't look like it would work out at all.

I am sorry you got stuck in religion that is powerless, but that is not God's fault. We have all kinds of posters here that have very little power of the Holy Spirit in their life.

But when God says turn right, and I am driving left, and tells me to go down this street, now slow down look for a man, and I do.
Find out the man was looking for his lost nephew in tears and handing out flyers. Then the Lord tells me, "Tell him, His nephew is safe, He will be found tomorrow, and the Nephew is found the next day." With lots of examples of this.

Then saying there is no God, must mean your very Wrong, or a few of us are crazy and have some physic abilities with the power to heal, and we just call it God.

Understand my position.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I think you missed the whole 7 years of being a devote Christian and wanting to possibly become a pastor.

Good point.

Wish I understood it all enough to give reasons when things like that happen but I don't, I just try to keep the faith but at the same time I know just how flaky that can sound to someone who seems to have done just that without result.

Been there myself as a Christian and still have my moments.....often

Maybe that's why one of my favorite verses are:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. You know the one.

I have to hold on to something and this doesn't help either but this one just makes sense to me, it "seems right" from the gut.

One might say (You didn't) that folks that just buy that stuff without question are simple minded but being that saves me a lot of grief and concern/confusion over what is what, It'll either serve me well in the end or not, I'm betting on it will, but hey, what have I really got to loose? If there turns out to be no God at all in the end, will any of us have lived just like we should have? Will any of us have gotten it right when there was nothing to get right?...

I'll be fine with what I was or strived to be, no matter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Most of us have moved past the word god because the term itself has a ton of baggage attached to it.

This is what I was getting at. Atheists simply redefine what they aren't supposed to believe exists in the first place. When it comes right down to it, they don't truly believe that there is nothing outside of this creation. What they are is actually more agnostic than they are atheist. Agnostics simply don't know. But an atheist claims he knows. But I've never met an atheist who knew there was no God. I've met lots who say they don't know and, therefore, don't think so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Its not really that simple. There was a ton of stuff that ticked away until eventually I just couldn't believe it all anymore.
Some of it was due to logical falacies, reading the whole thing and then also reading several other holy books, the deeper I learned and explored physics, biology, and chemistry, breaking away from a heavily isolated evangelical church and meeting people that were atheists that were not these devil people i was told they were. Delving into philosophy. learning about historical inconsistencies with the Bible and how other cultures developed and have completely independent concepts of the world. Most churches I've ever been to having corruption or attracting narcissists that claimed to be true speakers of God and ended up hurting people I know with legit psychological and social disorders. Not to mention using their power to sleep around with 16 and 17 year old girls.

None of this, as true as some or all of this is, can compel me to abandon the forgiveness of sins that I have received from God. This is why I asked you about your experience with God. I'm guessing it was not centered around a profound experience of having your sins forgiven.

You're prolly one of the nicest 'atheists' I've ever known, and trust me I have no animosity or hatred toward you, nor any desire to attack you, but I do want to be blunt and suggest you've never truly entered into God's forgiveness. Either that or it just didn't mean that much to you. Only you know. But the point is, the staying power of faith is the treasure of having one's sins forgiven and being free of the guilt and condemnation and eternal consequence of sin. When that's the most valuable thing in life you cling to it no matter what philosophy or reasoning or so-called proof comes along to tempt you to abandon it. With each passing year I realize all the more how there is nothing worth more in this life--love, sex, money, fame, etc.--than the forgiveness of my sins I have received through Jesus Christ.

 

[Runner]

To me and many of my non believer friends, we don't believe in the Christian God because he doesn't make any sense to us. We are open to the possibility of a god existing, but just not convinced by Christian apologetic. Most of us have moved past the word god because the term itself has a ton of baggage attached to it.

That is not a statement an atheist would make. That is a statement an agnostic would make. For that matter, Jews, Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists "aren't convinced by Christian apologetic."

It is true that no one can demonstrate the existence of God. Likewise, no one can demonstrate the non-existence of God. However, anyone can evaluate the evidence and arguments and make an informed leap of faith in one direction or the other. Some people find the evidence and arguments for God compelling and become believers. Some find the evidence and arguments compelling in the other direction and become atheists. Some don't find the evidence and arguments compelling in either direction and remain agnostics.

The quotes from Si Robertson are simply silly. Of course there are atheists - people who have seriously evaluated the evidence and arguments and come to deeply believe that the materialistic paradigm is the best explanation for reality. There are, of course, also "pretend" atheists who really haven't given much thought to the issue at all but adopt an atheist pose to irritate Christians, shock their parents, seem hip, or whatever; ditto for pretend Christians who have their own agendas and motives.

There are "gut-level" atheists and believers as well - they don't really give much thought to the matter one way or the other but intuitively believe or disbelieve ... or have been brainwashed since childhood or college into believing or disbelieving ... or whatever.

In my experience, people who say they aren't convinced by Christian apologetics - or say they don't believe in UFOs or ghosts, for that matter - have seldom done the legwork to be able to make such a statement. To be blunt, they really don't know what they are talking about. They have simply landed within a particular community of skeptics, debunkers or non-believers and learned to parrot what the leaders of that community say. It's the easy way out, but it seldom leads to Truth.

Milk-Drop, you sound to me like Bart Ehrman and a host of others for whom Christianity "didn't live up to its billing" and thus you threw out Baby Jesus with the bathwater and adopted an atheist/agnostic stance. What passes for Christianity in America and most other places absolutely doesn't live up to its billing; I don't believe it has much of anything at all to do with what Jesus was talking about. If Christianity "living up to its billing" were my criterion for being a Christian, I would've joined the agnostics or become a Buddhist long ago. Ditto for "the world not being the way I would design it if I were God" - everyone is troubled by the state of the world, but Christianity has what seems to me to be a more convincing explanation than materialism or any other religion.

For me, the equation is simply (1) I believe the best evidence points toward consciousness existing independently of the brain and surviving bodily death and toward humans being created beings existing within a created reality (which gets me to Some Sort of God); (2) I believe Christianity provides the best explanation for the reality I experience and observe on a daily basis (which gets me to Christianity); and (3) having made the leap of faith into Christianity, I believe I have seen its reality unfold in my life (in truly "miraculous" ways that would otherwise be very difficult to explain). You might do the same legwork I've done over the past 50 years, never get past stage 1 and remain a convinced atheist - who knows? But if your current stance is more in the vein of thinking that Christianity didn't live up to its billing or that the world you have experienced doesn't mesh with the one you think God should have created, I hope you'll keep digging for answers and won't be satisfied with your current stance just because you've become comfortable in it.

 

[Milk-Drops]

This doesn't help any I know but for some reason I never even considered ways other than the Biblical.

Too simple minded maybe, that or just satisfied.

I don't think you are simple minded. I just started reading because I love to read. I'm vastly interested in learning things and that is what compelled me to keep searching for answers. To me Christianity had a threshold where you pretty much had to stop learning certain things without having to go into double think or that some stuff made no sense when the Bible says one thing, but the research says something else.