If you are unable to show some fourth being except them three then I’m right: there are three separate and so on divine beings clearly depicted in gospels: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and trinitarian tri-personal god is just a doctrine, interpretation of scriptures.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.
- Thread starter Dmytro
- Start date
What is the Ancient Greek word for person?
The philosophical concept of person arose, taking the word "prosopon" (Ancient Greek: πρόσωπον, romanized: prósōpon) from the Greek theatre
“prosopon” in Scripture means “face”. It might be said that everyone with a face is a person.
So, I’m wondering why Jesus, who had a human face would not be a human person.
Could Jesus be said to be the greatest Actor of all time?
Consecrated Life
Member
God, who cannot lie, in His Word has declared they are all God.
God says He will not share His Glory with any other.
Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...
By definition then, Jesus claiming He shares the Glory of God the Father, the Glory which God says in Isaiah 42:8 He shares with no one, Jesus is either God or a Liar ?
O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus is either liar or God ?
Those are the only two options in answer to Jesus's claim of having the Glory of the Father before the world began.
Could it mean the glory He has will always remain with Him. That He will not relinquish His glory to another.God, who cannot lie, in His Word has declared they are all God.
God says He will not share His Glory with any other.
Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...
By definition then, Jesus claiming He shares the Glory of God the Father, the Glory which God says in Isaiah 42:8 He shares with no one, Jesus is either God or a Liar ?
Jhn 17:5
O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus is either liar or God ?
Those are the only two options in answer to Jesus's claim of having the Glory of the Father before the world began.
Christ could be given the glory of the Father without the Father relinquishing His own.
I think it means God gave him the glory as he suffered for all men and the father won't relinquish the glory as all men are here today due to Jesus suffering for us all and therefore deserves the glory.
Sandy
Mustard Seed
Member
John the Revelator is our second highest voice on these matters, in the sense that he is a very specific type of apologist about who Jesus is. Obviously, the most potent answers to this discussion are found in Red Letters.
Paul is the third highest voice in these matters. I will first offer this as a hopeful assist to this discussion. It is a collection of some of the most important scriptures on these matters... free and clear of commentary or exegesis, yet ordered in a scripturally logical fashion, only repeated to assist in building on the fore discussed points.
Genesis 1:2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water.
Genesis 3:8 During that day’s cool evening breeze, they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the Lord God in the middle of the garden’s trees.
Genesis 22:12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.”
15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring[b] all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”
Genesis 32:28 “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” He said. “It will be Israel[a] because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked Him, “Please tell me Your name.” But He answered, “Why do you ask My name?” And He blessed him there.
30 Jacob then named the place Peniel, “For I have seen God face to face,” he said, “and I have been delivered.”
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
1 Samuel 8:6 But the Lord told him, “Listen to the people and everything they say to you. They have not rejected you; they have rejected ME as their King.
Exodus 33:18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens
Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24 Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He [d]troubled the army of the Egyptians
Exodus 33:8 Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people would stand up, each one at the door of his tent, and they would watch Moses until he entered the tent. 9 When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and remain at the entrance to the tent, and the Lord would speak with Moses. 10 As all the people saw the pillar of cloud remaining at the entrance to the tent, they would stand up, then bow in worship, each one at the door of his tent. 11 The Lord spoke with Moses face to face, just as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his assistant, the young man Joshua son of Nun, would not leave the inside of the tent.
Numbers 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. 12 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them.” 13 These are the waters of Meribah,[a] where the people of Israel quarreled with the Lord, and through them he showed himself holy.
Exodus 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, so that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.
Continued on next post...
Mustard Seed
Member
1 Samuel 8:6 But the Lord told him, “Listen to the people and everything they say to you. They have not rejected you; they have rejected me as their king.
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior".
Isaiah 63:9 In all their distress he too was distressed,
and the angel of his presence saved them.[a]
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.
10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a. son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being. interpreted is, God with us.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,[a]
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.
4 Life was in Him,[b]
and that life was the light of men.
14 The Word became flesh[k]
and took up residence[l] among us.
We observed His glory,
the glory as the One and Only Son[m] from the Father,
full of grace and truth.
18No one has ever seen God.[n]
The One and Only Son[o]—
the One who is at the Father’s side[p]—
He has revealed Him.
Colossians 1:13 For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
John 14:8 “Lord,” said Philip, “show us the Father, and that’s enough for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe[a] because of the works themselves.
John 14:23 Yeshua answered him, “If someone loves me, he will keep my Word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 16:7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send him to you.
John 12:32 As for me, when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[a] When he had said this, he breathed his last.
1 Peter 3:18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,[s]
the righteous for the unrighteous,[t]
that He might bring you[u] to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm[v]
but made alive in the spiritual realm.[w]
Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split
1 Peter 3:19 In that state[x] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[y] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared.
Ephesians 4:8 For it says:
When He ascended on high,
He took prisoners into captivity;[a]
He gave gifts to people.[b]
Continued on next post....
Mustard Seed
Member
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends[b] of the earth.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
1 John 3:8 The one who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s works.
Revelation 12:5 But she gave birth to a Son—a male who is going to shepherd[d] all nations with an iron scepter—and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[a] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like that of a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were staying. 3 And tongues, like flames of fire that were divided, appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 Then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them ability for speech.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed.
Acts 7:55 But Stephen, filled by the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven. He saw God’s glory, with[a] Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said,
Acts 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I AM Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.
Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the effulgence of His glory, and [a]the very image of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
Spoiler
Philippians 2:5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.[a]
7 Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form,
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,[b]
to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 22:12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes,[f] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you[g] for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star.”
17 Both the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Anyone who hears should say, “Come!” And the one who is thirsty should come. Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift.
this is the full verse:God, who cannot lie, in His Word has declared they are all God.
God says He will not share His Glory with any other.
Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...
By definition then, Jesus claiming He shares the Glory of God the Father, the Glory which God says in Isaiah 42:8 He shares with no one, Jesus is either God or a Liar ?
Jhn 17:5
O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus is either liar or God ?
Those are the only two options in answer to Jesus's claim of having the Glory of the Father before the world began.
Isa. 42:8
I am Jehovah, this is My name, And Mine honour to another I give not, Nor My praise to graven images.
Here as I understand Yahweh speaks about idolatry. You trinitarians speaking like you haven’t known Jesus, really. You cannot grasp that Jesus not being Yahweh God the Father is equal to him. He’s not another, not a mare man or some human made image or human invented doctrine. He’s worthy to share the Father’s glory. Read the gospels not your writings, listen to Jesus’s words, observe his works and you’ll love him and will abandon your futile reasoning exactly the same like that of the Jews who killed Jesus and maybe will understand that he’s worthy.
definitely. The Father SHARED his glory with Jesus because he is worthy of it.
That is a flat out lie and purposeful misrepresentation of my position.
Faith in three gods, which contradicts Scripture's repeated claim there is only one God.
Not at all a double standard. You said that only the Father is Yahweh, but you cannot provide a verse which states that. I said that God is tri-personal--three divine, coequal, coeternal persons within the one being that is God--for which I provided verses showing the three divine persons. That there is only one being that is God goes without saying, even though I repeated it multiple times and provided verses for that as well.
Exactly! I provided exactly what you asked for--verses showing the three divine persons. Do you think the Trinity is some sort of three-headed being? It seems like you want a verse that shows that, which is why you will never get one. Again:
1. There always has been and ever will be one being that is God.
2. Only God can have the nature that makes God who he is, which is implied by monotheism.
3. As you have correctly stated, the Son and Holy Spirit are coequal in nature with God.
4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons.
Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that there are three coequal, coeternal, divine persons within the one being that is God. Logically and biblically they cannot be three completely separate coequal beings, as that would be three gods.
They, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are one being in three distinct persons.
Again, a flat out lie.
My reasoning is sound, based on all that God reveals of himself in Scripture.
How do you know what they thought? They were monotheists, which meant they believed in only one God, not three.
What you’re implying is a violation of the ToS.
Very. And, based on that, let me make myself clear: you’re on thin ice with your continued violations of the ToS (three in that post).
I have never said anything about a fourth being, because there isn't one. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I have stated.
No. The Son shared in the glory of the Father because he is a divine person equal to the Father, being of the same substance and having the same nature, meaning he is also the one God along with the Father and the Spirit. That is the only way that Jesus's claim makes sense.
Joh 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (ESV)
Mustard Seed
Member
Would you be willing to answer a few questions, so I can better understand what you are suggesting? I believe there are a few theological facts that may allow you to express what you are expressing with sharper definitive language, but I don't want to assume that I fully understand your intended position on these matters.
I believe Jesus is worthy because, first of all, he’s God by nature equal to the Father, and second, how committed and faithful he was, even to the death, while completing the Father’s works.
Mustard Seed
Member
Adding Scriptural support to your statement.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,[a]
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.
4 Life was in Him,[b]
and that life was the light of men.
14 The Word became flesh[k]
and took up residence[l] among us.
I believe it’s God’s Spirit which gives Him His glory. Called “the Spirit of the LORD” or “the Spirit of God” .
For example, He created the heavens and earth by His Spirit. And He performed all sorts of miracles by His Spirit. The Scripture was ultimately written by His Spirit.
God could give a measure of His Spirit without diminishing His Spirit.
God can also give a full measure of His Spirit without diminishing His own.
God gives a full measure of His Spirit to His son only. In that way the son would share in the same glory as God.
Mustard Seed
Member
Alright... I'll just say it....
The most adherent to Canonical Doctrine Theologians refer to the visible presence of God in the Old Testament as "Pre-Incarnate Christophanies". Are you familiar with this term?
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (ESV)
Compare that with what Paul says in Galatians 4:
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (ESV)
Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (ESV)
And, very importantly, in 1 Peter we see that the OT prophets prophesied by the "Spirit of Christ":
1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)
There are two very significant things going on in those passages. First, the Holy Spirit is not only called the Spirit of God, he is also called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of his Son. Second, Peter clearly states that it was by the Spirit of Christ that the OT prophets prophesied about Christ.