There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Dmytro]

That is a flat out lie and purposeful misrepresentation of my position.


Faith in three gods, which contradicts Scripture's repeated claim there is only one God.


Not at all a double standard. You said that only the Father is Yahweh, but you cannot provide a verse which states that. I said that God is tri-personal--three divine, coequal, coeternal persons within the one being that is God--for which I provided verses showing the three divine persons. That there is only one being that is God goes without saying, even though I repeated it multiple times and provided verses for that as well.


Exactly! I provided exactly what you asked for--verses showing the three divine persons. Do you think the Trinity is some sort of three-headed being? It seems like you want a verse that shows that, which is why you will never get one. Again:

1. There always has been and ever will be one being that is God.
2. Only God can have the nature that makes God who he is, which is implied by monotheism.
3. As you have correctly stated, the Son and Holy Spirit are coequal in nature with God.
4. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons.

Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that there are three coequal, coeternal, divine persons within the one being that is God. Logically and biblically they cannot be three completely separate coequal beings, as that would be three gods.


They, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are one being in three distinct persons.


Again, a flat out lie.


My reasoning is sound, based on all that God reveals of himself in Scripture.


How do you know what they thought? They were monotheists, which meant they believed in only one God, not three.


What you’re implying is a violation of the ToS.


Very. And, based on that, let me make myself clear: you’re on thin ice with your continued violations of the ToS (three in that post).


I have never said anything about a fourth being, because there isn't one. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I have stated.

I asked you to provide a verse describing trinitarian tri-personal being and you instead of that provided verses showing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - three beings. These are exactly who I believe in and it doesn’t make any sense for us to continue this argument.

 

[Consecrated Life]

God, who cannot lie, in His Word has declared they are all God.
God says He will not share His Glory with any other.

Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...

By definition then, Jesus claiming He shares the Glory of God the Father, the Glory which God says in Isaiah 42:8 He shares with no one, Jesus is either God or a Liar ?

Jhn 17:5
O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus is either liar or God ?
Those are the only two options in answer to Jesus's claim of having the Glory of the Father before the world began.

this is the full verse:

Isa. 42:8
I am Jehovah, this is My name, And Mine honour to another I give not, Nor My praise to graven images.

By Your substituting the word "honour" for "Glory" you have removed all previous question of who was the liar, Jesus or the Father that the word "Glory" presented.
By God the Father Himself saying He gives "Honour" to the Son you have now removed Jesus from the equation altogether.
By your surreptitious switching of the Word "honour" for "Glory" in a feeble misguided attempt to nullify Jesus's claim of having God's Glory , you are now making God who says He gives "honour" to the Son a liar.

Psalm 91:15
..... I will deliver him, and honour him.

I don't believe it is possible to dig the hole you have dug for yourself any deeper in the spiritual sense, how do you top pointing out God to be a liar in His own Word by manipulating scripture I don't know, but I am confident if anyone can do so it is you .
So please , go on .

 

[Mustard Seed]

of course Sir

I asked you to provide a verse describing trinitarian tri-personal being and you instead of that provided verses showing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - three beings. These are exactly who I believe in and it doesn’t make any sense for us to continue this argument.

Thank you, Sir. I know you are juggling many responses, I went on ahead and posted the first question... Link to First Question, 199, :The most adherent to Canonical Doctrine Theologians refer to the visible presence of God in the Old Testament as "Pre-Incarnate Christophanies". Are you familiar with this term?

 

[Free]

I asked you to provide a verse describing trinitarian tri-personal being and you instead of that provided verses showing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - three beings.

Because, as I have repeatedly stated, including in the post you quoted, there is only one being that is God, which means there is only one being that has the nature of God. If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all coequal, coeternal, divine persons, and they are, then it necessarily follows that all three persons are the one being--a tri-personal being.

These are exactly who I believe in

No, you believe in three completely separate divine beings which makes you a tritheist, and that goes against the Bible and orthodox Christian theology.

 

[sandyj]

I believe Jesus is worthy because, first of all, he’s God by nature equal to the Father, and second, how committed and faithful he was, even to the death, while completing the Father’s works.

I've followed you please feel free to follow me back.

 

[Dmytro]

Would you be willing to answer a few questions, so I can better understand what you are suggesting? I believe there are a few theological facts that may allow you to express what you are expressing with sharper definitive language, but I don't want to assume that I fully understand your intended position on these matters.

Need some time to check your quotes. Let’s continue tomorrow :yes

 

[Mustard Seed]

... there is only one being that is God, ...

You have the courage to proof that the Paraclete is the indwelling of "The Holy Ghost of Jesus Christ" which is a very shocking matter to some. I respect this and appreciate your quoted verses, here:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (ESV)

Compare that with what Paul says in Galatians 4:

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (ESV)

Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (ESV)

And, very importantly, in 1 Peter we see that the OT prophets prophesied by the "Spirit of Christ":

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)


There are two very significant things going on in those passages. First, the Holy Spirit is not only called the Spirit of God, he is also called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of his Son. Second, Peter clearly states that it was by the Spirit of Christ that the OT prophets prophesied about Christ.

 

[Dmytro]

What is the Ancient Greek word for person?

The philosophical concept of person arose, taking the word "prosopon" (Ancient Greek: πρόσωπον, romanized: prósōpon) from the Greek theatre

“prosopon” in Scripture means “face”. It might be said that everyone with a face is a person.
So, I’m wondering why Jesus, who had a human face would not be a human person.

Makes sense. I would say also that everyone with a face is a being. It’s strange to me how someone who saw Jesus could not consider him a being. To claim he isn’t simply means to deny his existence. Arguing about this is like arguing whether the sky is blue.

 

[LeviR]

Makes sense. I would say also that everyone with a face is a being. It’s strange to me how someone who saw Jesus could not consider him a being. To claim he isn’t simply means to deny his existence. Arguing about this is like arguing whether the sky is blue.

The word “person” means “face” as it refers to humans. If you say you saw someone “in person” it means you saw their face.
If you identify someone, some person, you do so by seeing their face. To speak person to person is to speak face to face.
Each individual person is an individual face.
Therefore, to see the human face of Jesus was to see a person. A human person.

This the Biblical meaning. And how it was first understood.

Trinitarians invented a new idea for person to make a distinction between their God. Which distinction they still haven’t figured out.

 

[sandyj]

The word “person” means “face” as it refers to humans. If you say you saw someone “in person” it means you saw their face.
If you identify someone, some person, you do so by seeing their face. To speak person to person is to speak face to face.
Each individual person is an individual face.
Therefore, to see the human face of Jesus was to see a person. A human person.

This the Biblical meaning. And how it was first understood.

Trinitarians invented a new idea for person to make a distinction between their God. Which distinction they still haven’t figured out.

I never thought about it like that but it makes sense to differentiate between a person and a deity.

 

[LeviR]

I never thought about it like that but it makes sense to differentiate between a person and a deity.

Jesus said that the pure in heart would see God. To see God is to see his person or to see His face. Same thing.

 

[sandyj]

Jesus said that the pure in heart would see God. To see God is to see his person or to see His face. Same thing.

Does that mean god saw himself as a person? As one of us?

 

[LeviR]

Does that mean god saw himself as a person? As one of us?

God has a face, therefore He is a person. if He had no face, we could not say He is a person. It’s the glory of the face that makes the difference.

 

[Randy]

Surely I am. But unlike you I make different conclusions. I believe Jesus is divine and the Holy Spirit is a divine person different from the Father. I just don't believe in trinity and consider this doctrine unbiblical.

There is only one God and one Spirit. I can see the Spirit as a person. The person of the Father. In a believer the Spirit, sent in Jesus name, conveys the will and presence of Christ so in that context the person of Christ. What I don't see is the Spirit having a separate distinct mind from the Father. He speaks only what He hears. He intercedes according to the will of the mind of God. He searches and knows the deep thoughts of God. The Father alone states "My Spirit" hence the Spirit of God. The Fathers Spirit would have His nature.

If you believe in one God and the Father, Son and Spirit as all divine persons how do they differ? Why are the Spirit and the Son not the true God, (singular), as well? And how do you state one God as in what makes all 3 persons in your belief the only "one" God?

In regard to the Son do you believe He is eternally begotten of the Father alone before all things? True God "from" True God. That Jesus as we call Him now has always been the Son. That the Spirit proceeds from the Father (eastern church) That the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son (western church)_

 

[Randy]

Does that mean god saw himself as a person? As one of us?

to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

You can see this in Jesus's interactions with those who loved Him vs those who sought to kill and trap Him.

 

[Dmytro]

The word “person” means “face” as it refers to humans. If you say you saw someone “in person” it means you saw their face.
If you identify someone, some person, you do so by seeing their face. To speak person to person is to speak face to face.
Each individual person is an individual face.
Therefore, to see the human face of Jesus was to see a person. A human person.

This the Biblical meaning. And how it was first understood.

Trinitarians invented a new idea for person to make a distinction between their God. Which distinction they still haven’t figured out.

they usually use ‘hypostasis’ instead of ‘person’ in eastern tradition. Westerns use ‘person’. It used to encourage me some time ago, I used to thought in this way they express they recognise our Saviour, his Father and the Holy Spirit as real persons but I was wrong.

 

[Dmytro]

There is only one God and one Spirit. I can see the Spirit as a person. The person of the Father. In a believer the Spirit, sent in Jesus name, conveys the will and presence of Christ so in that context the person of Christ. What I don't see is the Spirit having a separate distinct mind from the Father. He speaks only what He hears. He intercedes according to the will of the mind of God. He searches and knows the deep thoughts of God. The Father alone states "My Spirit" hence the Spirit of God. The Fathers Spirit would have His nature.

If you believe in one God and the Father, Son and Spirit as all divine persons how do they differ? Why are the Spirit and the Son not the true God, (singular), as well? And how do you state one God as in what makes all 3 persons in your belief the only "one" God?

In regard to the Son do you believe He is eternally begotten of the Father alone before all things? True God "from" True God. That Jesus as we call Him now has always been the Son. That the Spirit proceeds from the Father (eastern church) That the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son (western church)_

Some of your phrases were delight:yes I believe what I see and hear. I see three divine persons and beings. The Father is the only true God. ‘God’ is kind of title. Jesus is God by nature the same as the Father, separate divine being. He, like the Father, always was. I personally prefer ‘monogenes’ to be translated like ‘one and only’ not ‘only begotten’ because Jesus, I believe, wasn’t literally born from the Father. He always was the Son, but was manifested as a Son through the resurrection. The Father shows all he’s going to do to Jesus and Jesus implements that in a perfect way, this is why the Father is well pleased with him. When Jesus was among us he spoke and did only what was revealed to him by the Father so seeing him was like seeing the Father himself. Then Jesus died for us, was raised up from the dead by the Father and snatched to his throne in the heavens and now them two are sitting there. From the Father he sent his Spirit who is at the same time the Spirit of the Father, third divine person, to us to not leave us as orphans, to guide, sanctify us and to give us strength to do his works and even greater than the ones he used to do. The Holy Spirit while being with us and in us conveys Jesus’ will and presence :yes. In this way God the Father, Jesus his Son, the Holy Spirit and the chosen ones are in perfect unity. Hope I answered at least something.

 

[Runningman]

Luke 10:18
.... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

What does that mean to you?

 

[sandyj]

What does that mean to you?

Fallen angel who kept falling to hell

 

[Runningman]

Jesus’ pre existence is based on his words and it requires nothing. You either believe or not.

Neither Jesus or the rest of the Bible says Jesus pre-existed. Likewise, you will either believe it or not.

So I guess there isn't really a doctrine for the pre-existence of Jesus and I am comfortable with that. I don't require Jesus be God for him to be my Lord and Savior.