There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Consecrated Life]

The that fact that none of the three had a beginning, ....

fact. Worthy to mention that you’ve just broken Athanasian creed stating ‘yet there are not three eternal beings but one’ and hence, according to it, you cannot be saved. Glory to God he doesn’t judge according to human seemingly biblical writings.

Athanasian ought to familiarize himself with God's Word .

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Dmytro]

Accusing you of what, polytheism? Do you prefer tritheism? That is precisely what you believe. You believe in three completely separate, coequal, divine beings,

Yes, right.

which is the definition of tritheism.

You label me the same as Arians who don’t believe Jesus is divine while I believe he’s a divine person which is exactly what was shown to us by our Heavenly Father. Frankly saying I don’t care about labels but I’ll then in return label you a modalist because trinitarian ‘persons’ since they are not beings are almost indistinctive from ‘modes’.

Do not misrepresent others' positions. I have never said that nor would I. I told you that Jesus, the Son, is a divine person HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE, for instance.

I clearly don’t misrepresent. Could you provide some quotes from NT stating the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are not beings?

 

[Dmytro]

Athanasian ought to familiarize himself with God's Word .

Do you believe Jesus who gave his life to save us from our sins, died for us according to the will of the Heavenly Father and sent to us the Holy Spirit to lead us, to give us power to testify about him are divine persons/ beings or trinitarian ‘persons’/ modes?

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Dmytro]

Mat 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (ESV)
Jhn 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Jhn 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Jhn 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Jhn 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Jhn 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. (ESV)

Let’s take Matthew 3:16. I see only the Father speaking from the heavens, Jesus on the river bank and the descending Holy Spirit here. Seems like you see someone else. Could you highlight particular words depicting that person you see?

 

[Dmytro]

Do you believe Jesus who gave his life to save us from our sins, died for us according to the will of the Heavenly Father and sent to us the Holy Spirit to lead us, to give us power to testify about him are divine persons/ beings or trinitarian ‘persons’/ modes?

need to correct… sorry for poor English

Do you believe Jesus who gave up his life to save us from our sins, died for us according to the will of the Heavenly Father and sent to us the Holy Spirit to lead us, to give us power to testify about him is a divine person/ being or trinitarian ‘person’/ mode?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Do you believe Jesus who gave his life to save us from our sins, died for us according to the will of the Heavenly Father and sent to us the Holy Spirit to lead us, to give us power to testify about him are divine persons/ beings or trinitarian ‘persons’/ modes?

How can He who had no beginning be anything less than Divine ?
Please explain ?

Luke 10:18
.... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[Runningman]

If God took upon himself human flesh, a human mind and a human will, could He pretend to be a human person?

Or maybe he isn't God then? I think a simple thought experiment should suffice. Put a hundred men in a room with Jesus. Now point at who is God. Could you?

 

[Runningman]

Because that is begging the question. You’re beginning with the premise that Jesus is only human.


Since Jesus was also a human person, why would you expect to find him doing or saying anything before his birth? Rather, believe what Jesus says when he says he existed with the Father prior to creation (as the Son). Believe what John says, that the Word was the preincarnate Son who existed in intimate communion with God and was also God in nature, proving it by stating everything that was ever created came into existence through the Word. Believe Paul when he says that the Son was in nature God before he became human, and when he also says that the Son was involved in the creation of everything that came into existence. Believe the writer of Hebrews when he says that the Son was involved in the creation of everything, and when he has the Father quoting Psalm 102:25-27 and saying it is about the Son.

Everywhere the OT says YHWH, that includes the preincarnate Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' alleged pre-existence requires examples of what he was doing as God for the interpretation to be literal.

Psalm 102:25-27 isn't about Jesus. It's about the God who anointed the Son in Hebrews 1:9. That means Jesus isn't YHWH either.

The entire context of the chapter is loud about Jesus not being the Lord God Almighty. See Hebrews 1:5,13 and compare those to their constituent Old Testament verse.

 

[Runningman]

definitely not the same. Jeremiah was foreknown, planned, predestined, appointed before his birth while Jesus according to his words WAS before his birth and before the creation of the world with the Father and was in glory. He was before Abraham was and through him all was created. Seems like I’m the only one here believing in Jesus as a divine person all the other either don’t believe he’s divine or don’t believe he’s a person in a regular sense.

Why can't it be the same with Jesus?

I believe everyone here believes Jesus is a divine person including myself. God isn't the only sort of divine person there is and neither is Jesus. How could there many sons of God who are not themselves divine?

 

[LeviR]

Or maybe he isn't God then? I think a simple thought experiment should suffice. Put a hundred men in a room with Jesus. Now point at who is God. Could you?

A hundred with the mortal Jesus or the immortal Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

A hundred with the mortal Jesus or the immortal Jesus?

Either one you wish.

 

[Dmytro]

How can He who had no beginning be anything less than Divine ?
Please explain ?

Luke 10:18
.... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

where I said he’s not divine? no more questions

 

[Dmytro]

Jesus' alleged pre-existence requires examples of what he was doing as God for the interpretation to be literal.

Jesus’ pre existence is based on his words and it requires nothing. You either believe or not.

Psalm 102:25-27 isn't about Jesus. It's about the God who anointed the Son in Hebrews 1:9. That means Jesus isn't YHWH either.

The entire context of the chapter is loud about Jesus not being the Lord God Almighty. See Hebrews 1:5,13 and compare those to their constituent Old Testament verse.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus' alleged pre-existence requires examples of what he was doing as God for the interpretation to be literal.

Luke 10:18
.... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[Free]

You label me the same as Arians who don’t believe Jesus is divine while I believe he’s a divine person which is exactly what was shown to us by our Heavenly Father. Frankly saying I don’t care about labels but I’ll then in return label you a modalist because trinitarian ‘persons’ since they are not beings are almost indistinctive from ‘modes’.

Except that you would be wrong because Trinitarianism is not Modalism, whereas believing in three completely separate, coequal, divine beings is, by definition, tritheism.

I clearly don’t misrepresent.

But you did.

Could you provide some quotes from NT stating the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are not beings?

No. You’re asking the entirely wrong question because of your denial that only God can have the nature that makes him God, contrary to Scripture. There is one being that is God and only he has the nature that belongs to him. That is what we need to make sense of and that is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account the full revelation of God—three divine, coequal, coeternal persons within the one being that is God.

 

[Free]

Let’s take Matthew 3:16. I see only the Father speaking from the heavens, Jesus on the river bank and the descending Holy Spirit here. Seems like you see someone else. Could you highlight particular words depicting that person you see?

You can’t be serious.

 

[Free]

Jesus' alleged pre-existence requires examples of what he was doing as God for the interpretation to be literal.

Jesus’s own word isn’t good enough? Of course, your argument is fallacious.

Psalm 102:25-27 isn't about Jesus. It's about the God who anointed the Son in Hebrews 1:9. That means Jesus isn't YHWH either.

No, Heb 1:10-12 clearly has the Father applying Psalm 102:25-27 to the Son. That is the only way that can be understood.

The entire context of the chapter is loud about Jesus not being the Lord God Almighty. See Hebrews 1:5,13 and compare those to their constituent Old Testament verse.

Except that isn’t the context at all. The clear context is the Son’s superiority to the angels. That the Son is God is shown in 1:2-3, 10-12.

 

[Dmytro]

You can’t be serious.

So you can’t. Ok, that’s all what is needed.

 

[Free]

So you can’t. Ok, that’s all what is needed.

Because your question is nonsense; it is not based on anything I have stated or implied. You first asked: “Could you please quote some verse from the gospels depicting that tri-personal being speaking or acting in some other way.” And I gave that passage in response, showing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You respond by asking me to highlight the words showing some supposed fourth person that I supposedly believe in. But there is simply no way to come to that conclusion from anything I have stated. It seems as though you are intent on continually misrepresenting my position.

 

[Dmytro]

Except that you would be wrong because Trinitarianism is not Modalism,

no significant difference. You both deny the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

whereas believing in three completely separate, coequal, divine beings is, by definition, tritheism.

it’s simply faith in them three.

But you did.


No. You’re asking the entirely wrong question because of your denial that only God can have the nature that makes him God, contrary to Scripture. There is one being that is God and only he has the nature that belongs to him. That is what we need to make sense of and that is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account the full revelation of God—three divine, coequal, coeternal persons within the one being that is God.

Double standards Free. When you were demanding from me to provide just one verse stating only the Father is Yahweh it was ok and in no way motivated by your trinitarianism, right? Wrong.
When I ask you to show your tri-personal god in gospels all you are able to show is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. You say they are not beings but gospels depicts all three and disciples spent blessed three years witnessing, listening to, touching the one who is not a being according to you. But what you believe is a being exists only in your theories and is simply invisible in the gospels. So you have no real proofs except your doctrines, reasoning and false interpretation of scriptures.
For apostles Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit undisputedly were separate beings and the Father was the only true God. They were sane Jews that believe in what they see and hear and not in their fantasies and doctrines like Gentiles with their tendency towards philosophy and futile thinking. I hope I was clear.