There is no Second Coming

[Vic C.]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Just to clarify a little more: The Bible has two "second comings"
1) One is spiritual (a manifestation in us)
2)Then we have a real one, where its a physical second coming.

Ok. But isn't that a gimme? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what almost all Christians (aside from our full-preterist friends - as far as the physical second coming) have always believed? Wouldn't really be classified as "Christian" without that "spiritual manifestation"; would you?

Yes, it is a "gimmie". It's just semantics. C is correct if what he is saying is; the spiritual coming is personal and the physical is a coming w/ a large, general resurrection/"rapture"/transformation and gathering of all the saints, past and present. There's no need to argue over the extreme finer points of all that. ;)

Hebrews 9:28 ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

I forgot about that one entirely.
And boom..the OP is refuted in one little verse....

I agree, unless we are squabbling over the usage of the word "appear", which again would be words games. This one verse should have put this issue to rest. No offense, but all I'm seeing is a bunch of words attempting to disprove this one clear verse and as we who believe in the Second Advent know, thare are many more verses.

 

[candypain1]

Maybe a second coming. Maybe a rapture. Neither or Both. Regardless, we can tell that the end times are nigh. Doe's Account demonstrates science has deomstrated the afterlife conclusively.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C
Yes, it is a "gimmie". It's just semantics. C is correct if what he is saying is; the spiritual coming is personal and the physical is a coming w/ a large, general resurrection/"rapture"/transformation and gathering of all the saints, past and present. There's no need to argue over the extreme finer points of all that.

Agreed. That's what I thought. :P

 

[Benoni]

I am an Illustrator my self and agree with what you are saying. J Preston Eby is his name and can be found on the Web. J Preston does not sell his work He freely gives it away. I have always posted his name when I post his writings.

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/ ... look41.htm

Benoni: I am a writer. As you probably know, writing is hard work. Nothing disturbed me more than posters using other people's work without acknowledging the author. I appreciate that you have at least indicated Eby's name at the bottom of your post. But I must admit, that I missed it entirely and was about to accuse you of plagiarism! If you are to submit such a large portion of someone else's work, I believe it proper to give the exact location of that work. The author deserves no less, right? Without a link to the author's entire work, someone could easily take his words out of context!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34[/quote]

 

[Cornelius]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Just to clarify a little more: The Bible has two "second comings"
1) One is spiritual (a manifestation in us)
2)Then we have a real one, where its a physical second coming.

Ok. But isn't that a gimme? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what almost all Christians (aside from our full-preterist friends - as far as the physical second coming) have always believed? Wouldn't really be classified as "Christian" without that "spiritual manifestation"; would you?

Well, in my experience, its not a "gimme" because it is seldom preached at all. Who nowadays preach the manifestation of Christ in His body of believers and equate it to His coming in His people? Most will tell you Rev 12 talks about Israel. They have no idea that it is about the church at all. The church as a whole is definitely not waiting for the manifestation of Christ in His body of believers.Most are waiting to fly away any minute now.

I am not saying that nobody believes it. A few on this forum has stated that they take it as a given, so that must mean that you belief it. I think if we talk about it, we will find that most will have a different opinion of the the extent of His appearing.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
The church as a whole is definitely not waiting for the manifestation of Christ in His body of believers.Most are waiting to fly away any minute now.

This is true. That's the "Trouble With Pre-Tribbles" :D ..........they're everywhere.

 

[Aurora]

Seems to me the leaven comes from the people who have to make up non scriptural words like second coming and rapture and call it truth at the same time rejecting the multiple different ways God’s Word not made up words declares his return.
.

Or it could come from those who like to play semantics games with phrases like 'second coming'....and 'trinity'...rather than simply accepting that those are OUR phrases that are used to EXPRESS ideas and concepts presented in the scriptures...

Oh my!
Well being new here I'll start at the last post, for times sake.

The word Rapture is scriptural, and is found in the Greek as Harpazo, then Latin as rapturos, then to our english as Rapture, or catching away.
I may not have spelled all words right, but you can look up Harpazo on the net, and get more info.
Naturally some positive, and some argumentative. As usual.

1Thes. 4:16-17- 18 speaks of our catching away to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
His, Jesus, second coming is found in Revelation 19:1-16 where he comes to earth riding on a white horse.
King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.
Our concepts and faith are very much based on Gods word, and is solid as his word, For God said in Psalms 138:2 that he magnify' his word above all his name.

The God head, 3 in one ,is also mentioned, and the word trinity is simply to explain the truth of the 3 in one.....Translation does that.
There are three that bare witness in heaven, the word says, The Father ,the word, and the Holy Ghost.
1John 5:7
Matthew 28:19 Go Ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. :amen

 

[Cornelius]

There are three that bare witness in heaven, the word says, The Father ,the word, and the Holy Ghost.
1John 5:7

1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

 

[Aurora]

Yes, Amen!
And I believe that is here on Earth also.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Seems to me the leaven comes from the people who have to make up non scriptural words like second coming and rapture and call it truth at the same time rejecting the multiple different ways God’s Word not made up words declares his return.
.

Or it could come from those who like to play semantics games with phrases like 'second coming'....and 'trinity'...rather than simply accepting that those are OUR phrases that are used to EXPRESS ideas and concepts presented in the scriptures...

Oh my!
Well being new here I'll start at the last post, for times sake.

The word Rapture is scriptural, and is found in the Greek as Harpazo, then Latin as rapturos, then to our english as Rapture, or catching away.
I may not have spelled all words right, but you can look up Harpazo on the net, and get more info.
Naturally some positive, and some argumentative. As usual.

1Thes. 4:16-17- 18 speaks of our catching away to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
His, Jesus, second coming is found in Revelation 19:1-16 where he comes to earth riding on a white horse.
King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.
Our concepts and faith are very much based on Gods word, and is solid as his word, For God said in Psalms 138:2 that he magnify' his word above all his name.

The God head, 3 in one ,is also mentioned, and the word trinity is simply to explain the truth of the 3 in one.....Translation does that.
There are three that bare witness in heaven, the word says, The Father ,the word, and the Holy Ghost.
1John 5:7
Matthew 28:19 Go Ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. :amen

Greetings and welcome, Aurora! What do you mean by OUR and WE in 1 Thessalonians 4? Do you mean WE of our age today? If YOU can use those terms to refer to YOUR contemporary generation, why cannot Paul?

Paul was addressing those very Thessalonians of his day in a personal letter to THEM. When he said "we," he meant it to be understood in exactly the same way you expect us to understand "we." That is the meaning of Paul's words when he said, "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus WE shall ever be with the Lord." Do these things not have application to us today? Of course they do. We will all meet our Lord when we leave this world. But Paul clearly meant himself and those of his day, when he said "WE." That gathering together was a special event for THEM. You intended those words that way and so did he. It amazes me that Christians today proclaim "the Lord is coming soon," while denying that same meaning when it was used in the NT by Jesus and His inspired writers.

Nonbelieversforum ends his post with a statement concerning THIS generation being the one when the Lord will return. Yet when our Lord HIMSELF used that expression, futurists twist His words to mean THAT generation or some generation of a fig tree! If we want to use words in their simple, everyday, common usage in our own conversations and expect others to accept them at face value, should we not give the same consideration to the writers of the Bible?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Aurora]

Paul was addressing those very Thessalonians of his day in a personal letter to THEM. When he said "we," he meant it to be understood in exactly the same way you expect us to understand "we." That is the meaning of Paul's words when he said, "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus WE shall ever be with the Lord." Do these things not have application to us today? Of course they do. We will all meet our Lord when we leave this world. But Paul clearly meant himself and those of his day, when he said "WE." That gathering together was a special event for THEM. You intended those words that way and so did he. It amazes me that Christians today proclaim "the Lord is coming soon," while denying that same meaning when it was used in the NT by Jesus and His inspired writers.

Nonbelieversforum ends his post with a statement concerning THIS generation being the one when the Lord will return. Yet when our Lord HIMSELF used that expression, futurists twist His words to mean THAT generation or some generation of a fig tree! If we want to use words in their simple, everyday, common usage in our own conversations and expect others to accept them at face value, should we not give the same consideration to the writers of the Bible?

No problem there......I'm sure Paul felt they would see the rapture.
Each generation since then feels this is the generation, but we have an advantage, we can look back, in light of prophecy and know that the generation that was being talked about was after a long dispersion of the Jewish nation, and when we see the Fig tree bud again, or the Jews become a nation again, it is this generation that will see his return.
We are that generation.........For about 2000 years, the Jewish people had no home, then in 1948 was made a nation again. This is the factor no other time has had.
God gave me a vision of his coming, in 1967, right at the time of the 6 day war.
Which I also feel is significant....but also feel that was for my personal edification, and comfort.
I was being abused ,and my children at the time, and feel God was saying it wont be long, your hope is sure.
My hope is sure, for we are at the very thresh hold of his return.
The stage is set, and the curtain about to rise......well , we will anyway! :yes :amen

 

[Cornelius]

"We" simply means believers, Christians. We and "them" (unbelievers)

 

[Cornelius]

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

Its simple to understand. Its normal language and there is nothing odd about it. Paul is simply stating a fact about the Christians that will be alive in the time of the coming of the Lord.

 

[Aurora]

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

Its simple to understand. Its normal language and there is nothing odd about it. Paul is simply stating a fact about the Christians that will be alive in the time of the coming of the Lord.

Amen Cornelius, Even so,Lord, Come.

WE desire to be with you. :amen :yes

 

[MMarc]

Rev 12 I believe refers to the spiritual birth of Jesus, the rest of her seed comes later.

To come like lighning is to come down as a spirit in a specific vessel or new wine skin.

The one whom you seek will suddenly come into His temple...

The manchild I believe is a physical man (born of water) and spiritual child.

"And a child shall lead them" I doubt we will follow a physical child, but a spiritual one.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Seems to me the leaven comes from the people who have to make up non scriptural words like second coming and rapture and call it truth at the same time rejecting the multiple different ways God’s Word not made up words declares his return.
.

Or it could come from those who like to play semantics games with phrases like 'second coming'....and 'trinity'...rather than simply accepting that those are OUR phrases that are used to EXPRESS ideas and concepts presented in the scriptures...

I think Howard gets the vote for this one.......

 

[Osgiliath]

I think Howard gets the vote for this one.......

I'm surprised anyone even bothered replying to Benoni's Baloney. Good Lord!

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I think Howard gets the vote for this one.......

I'm surprised anyone even bothered replying to Benoni's Baloney. Good Lord!

I have never read any of his/her other posts,,,,,this must be a regular occurance ay....

 

[Start the fire]

Ask yourself is this post just another sign of the time?

 

[MMarc]

I agree that Christ has come to us in many ways, and that John 14 is all about His preparing places in the body for His disciples in which He and the Father would reside. That happened on that special day of Pentecost.

But it is also true, that Jesus is going to return in the same resurrected body in which He departed.

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.†Acts 1:9-11

As Jesus was lifted up the disciples saw a cloud take Him out of their sight. Was that a cloud as we know a cloud? Or was it a group of people or angels? There is no reason to speculate that it was the latter. As a wise old Mennonite man said, "If the literal sense makes sense, then it makes no sense to take it in any other sense." The two men in white robes, most likely angels, told the disciples that Jesus would come in the same way as they saw Him go. In what way did they see Him go? They saw Him go in His resurrected body. Therefore He will come in His resurrected body!

Benoni wrote that Jesus came as lightning. That is not what was written in Matthew 24:27. First, the Greek word means "lighting" not "lightning". This is a broader term than "lightning", although it is sometimes used to refer to lightning. In one New Testament passage, it refers to the lighting which comes from a lamp.

Secondly, He doesn't come as lighting. Rather His coming is being compared to lighting. What lighting would that be?

Matthew 24:27 For as the lighting comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.

Matthew compares the coming of Christ to the lighting which comes from the east and shines as far as the west. It can refer only to the lighting of the sun. It is the sun that rises in the east and shines to the west. Lightning doesn't necessarily come from the east. It can come from any direction, and it doesn't shine to the west. Rather it flashes in any old direction.

When the sun rises and shines throughout the sky, everyone is aware of it. So will it be when Christ returns. It won't be a secret coming ---- a rapture. He won't be found in secret chambers or in the desert. Rather "Every eye shall see Him". All people will be just as aware of His presence as they are of the lighting from the sun.

Hey Paidion,

You can also see this as the gospel or word of God "your word is like a lamp"

Or in John 1 Jesus is compared to the light of the world but the world did not understand the light...
If you track the gospel through the last 2000 years, it went mostly west North west and now it is invading China, India and the middle east. Full circle. Like the light of the sun (son).