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There is no Second Coming

Originally posted by walter
See, this is what I have a problem with. Word games. With all due respect, in either sense both definitions require touching the other person and why in the world would Jesus tell them to not be clingy?

I have to agree with parousia on this one. In context, Jesus was essentially telling the woman to not "hold Him up" time wise (i.e. "I have to take care of some business woman, so don't bother me right now" :D just kidding). But Jesus was basically saying; "please don't delay me" - "please don't hold me up"). It was indeed a completely different situation with Thomas.
 
Benoni said:
The day you show me that God is made up of "three persons" using God's Word is the day I will agree with you. God is one.

God does not change.
Easy enough

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)
1. Jesus
2. The Spirit decending in the form of a dove
3. The Father speaking from heaven.
 
Sometimes I think you see a post by FoC and just try to find a reason to correct me without even comprehending if the point is relevant or not.
... and you disregard all the other people I ask to stay on topic. So, touche. :fencing

:D
 
Osgiliath said:
Originally posted by walter
See, this is what I have a problem with. Word games. With all due respect, in either sense both definitions require touching the other person and why in the world would Jesus tell them to not be clingy?

I have to agree with parousia on this one. In context, Jesus was essentially telling the woman to not "hold Him up" time wise (i.e. "I have to take care of some business woman, so don't bother me right now" :D just kidding). But Jesus was basically saying; "please don't delay me" - "please don't hold me up"). It was indeed a completely different situation with Thomas.


Now you see? Your explaination sheds new light on what parousia said. I have to apologize. I am at a college library that logs me off every 30 mins so sometimes I don't read as well as I should. No worries!
 
There is a coming of the Lord as a thief. That is not a coming or an appearing that is before the public. It is not an unveiling before the multitudes. A thief does not go down to the public square with a trumpet and say, "I'd like to make an announcement. At three o'clock in the morning I'm going to visit the wealthiest man in this town and I'm going to steal everything I can get my hands on." He doesn't do that.

He comes at the darkest part of the night. He comes with softest tread, without noise, without light, without warning. He comes as silently and stealthily as possible, unobserved by the sleepers. He comes to rob. He comes to take away everything that he can. He is after gold and pearls and jewels of great price. Men are unaware of the event until he has come and gone and the items of value to the owner have disappeared with him. The Lord Jesus Himself says that HE WILL COME AS A THIEF. God’s Word is written to us the believers; not the heathen.

As a thief! Can the natural mind even fathom the depths of a truth so eternal and sublime? This statement plainly indicates the manner of the Lord's coming. It shows that He is present unseen, doing a work of which men are for a time entirely unaware. His working is therefore in a quiet manner, unobserved and entirely unknown until the discovery is made in consciousness of the handiwork He has wrought in secret. His arising steals its way upon us as the dawning of the day.

Put away your charts and timetables and calculations and dates; for they have all failed miserably and none will ever be right. Thank God that He delivers us from all this fantastic nonsense! And in its place He directs our attention to what HE is doing, yes, that which HE IS BECOMING and FULFILLING in His elect. We look, indeed, for HIS GLORIOUS APPEARING, and rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory wherein He has appeared unto us, and in the glory in which He shall yet appear in surpassing splendor, praise His wonderful name!

Before the Lord Jesus Christ departed from this visible world, He said, "I will come again." He, as the glorified Christ, repeated these words to John on the lonely island of Patmos. Here He sharpened His promise and delivered it in a dramatic way. "And, behold, I come QUICKLY; and My reward is with Me" (Rev. 22:12).

This word "quickly" is from the Greek TACHU meaning shortly, without delay, soon. Why would Christ say He was coming QUICKLY, SHORTLY, SOON AND WITHOUT DELAY if two long milleniums of time were to stretch out between His promise and its fulfillment? If such was the case, He either lied, deceived, or was mistaken.

Two thousand years are N-O-T SOON, SHORTLY OR WITHOUT DELAY by the stretch of anybody's imagination His last word to the Churches is: "I am coming quickly," and this is the testimony of the One who is Faithful and true. He makes His coming to be the "NEXT THING" for the Christian. He sets up neither time nor event between Himself and His body.

He takes special pains to assure His people that there is no required delay, no parenthesis of time between Him and the saints. He uses a word which from the earliest days of classic Greek signifies "without delay." When therefore, He says, "I am coming (for He uses the present tense),"He says actually, "I am coming, I am already in the process of coming, and there SHALL BE NO DELAY." It would be impossible to use language which could more adequately, and without reserve, teach that the coming of Christ is a PRESENT AND CONTINUOUS EVENT. An aged minister once said that he did not believe the Lord was coming for 60,000 years. I concluded that he COULD NOT BE WATCHING FOR IT!

We dare not lose sight of the fact that our Lord has already had many comings, many appearing. We have limited the comings of Jesus strictly to two because of our unscriptural and extra-biblical terms "first coming" and "second coming," but the truth is that He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; He will continue to come! JEby
 
Originally posted by Benoni
He takes special pains to assure His people that there is no required delay, no parenthesis of time between Him and the saints.

But there is.

He makes His coming to be the "NEXT THING" for the Christian. He sets up neither time nor event between Himself and His body.

But He does.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


This subject of these verses is our "gathering together unto Christ". It clearly says "that day" (we gather unto Christ) shall not come except (UNTIL) there come a falling away (apostasy) first, and that man of sin; the son of perdition; who exalts himself, and claims to be God is revealed. How do you explain this if individual believers continually gather unto Christ? Is this just some fancy way of saying that we all conquer our own demons? Is "that day" spoken of different for everyone? Are the Seals, Trumpets, and Vial judgments that precede "the Lord’s Day" simply personal, individual "trials" we must all face before Jesus "reveals Himself" to us? Does this "man of sin" have to repeat this "appearance" in the "temple" over and over; to billions of individuals; at billions of different points in time?
 
Both parties are correct and both are wrong, because you guys are actually each trying to tell the other about one "second coming" , whereas the Bible talks of TWO.

First one: G5319
ÆανεÃÂÃ΃
phaneroÃ…Â
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).

This is the coming of Jesus IN us. In other words, its His manifestation in the believer. (John 16 , Jesus talks about this "coming". Its also this phaneroo, that is happening in Rev 12 (man child, is the phaneroo)

Then there is the literal coming of the Lord with the saints. This is His physical return and this word is:

G3952
ÀαÃÂοÅÃία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ ) ; (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
 
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

That word "cometh" is present continues tense. It is talking about the process that proceeds and finally will end in the phaneroÃ…Â. The "cometh" is happening now and began in the time of the disciples.The phaneroÃ…Â has not happened yet.
 
The disciples asked Jesus about the parousia, but He answered them about the phaneroÃ…Â

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?

Here they expect Jesus to tell them about the parousia, but Jesus had to tell them about the phaneroo first, because that happens first and that is also the time when we will SEE Him again. They wanted to know when we will SEE Jesus again. Jesus is now telling them about Him manifesting in His saints, and that is when we shall SEE Him again.

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

Compare this now:

Rev 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child

Surely you can see that Jesus was talking about the same thing, as is Rev 12 ?

Its the manifesting of Christ Jesus IN us. Its the phaneroo happening.

We have been taught a lie by the church and we have believed it. We even defend it, but the truth is much more wonderful and powerful. Jesus is coming IN us, before He is coming FOR us.

 
Originally posted by Cornelius
Surely you can see that Jesus was talking about the same thing, as is Rev 12 ?

Surely I can't. I'm not big on the New Age over-spiritualizing fad. Never much into the church either. I'm a Bible purist I guess, and try to use common sense.

Anyway, apply your explanation to my questions specifically. This was really meant for Benoni, but I'm curious as to how you would "Scripturally" apply this to my questions, being specific.
 
Osgiliath said:
Originally posted by Cornelius
Surely you can see that Jesus was talking about the same thing, as is Rev 12 ?

Surely I can't. I'm not big on the New Age over-spiritualizing fad. Never much into the church either. I'm a Bible purist I guess, and try to use common sense.

Anyway, apply your explanation to my questions specifically. This was really meant for Benoni, but I'm curious as to how you would "Scripturally" apply this to my questions, being specific.

I am sharing what I understand, and I am not here to argue or convince :)

We all need to ask the Lord about wisdom and understanding.
 
Cornelius said:
Both parties are correct and both are wrong, because you guys are actually each trying to tell the other about one "second coming" , whereas the Bible talks of TWO.

I just want to clarify: This statement is not meant for anybody specifically, but is meant to say: Both views that people have. (View 1: There is no second coming View2: There IS a second coming..)

This thread is obviously about the two views

C
 
Originally posted by Cornelius
I just want to clarify: This statement is not meant for anybody specifically, but is meant to say: Both views that people have. (View 1: There is no second coming View2: There IS a second coming..)

This thread is obviously about the two views

I have no desire to argue either, especially over a benevolent subject like this (and you seem like a nice guy - I've read your posts). But I do think it would be courteous to provide a thorough explanation when you tell someone they are simultaneously right and wrong. :confused

Anyway, I don't want my question to get lost in the heap before Benoni has a chance to answer. :D
 
Osgiliath said:
Originally posted by Cornelius
I just want to clarify: This statement is not meant for anybody specifically, but is meant to say: Both views that people have. (View 1: There is no second coming View2: There IS a second coming..)

This thread is obviously about the two views

I have no desire to argue either, especially over a benevolent subject like this (and you seem like a nice guy - I've read your posts). But I do think it would be courteous to provide a thorough explanation when you tell someone they are simultaneously right and wrong. :confused

Anyway, I don't want my question to get lost in the heap before Benoni has a chance to answer. :D

Right and wrong, simply means that both views are correct in "half a manner" (if you get my drift) We need to add the other person's understanding as well, and then we have the truth.

One understanding is: There is no second coming (because they see the phaneroÃ…Â )
The second is saying there is a second coming , because they see the parousia

Now add the two together and you will see the phaneroo is true AND the parousia.


So each view is correct, but also a little wrong (because it leaves out either the phaneroo or the parousia)
I hope that makes it more clear. :)
 
I don't want to clutter this, so I will wait for Benoni to answer after this post :)

Just to clarify a little more: The Bible has two "second comings"
1) One is spiritual (a manifestation in us)
2)Then we have a real one, where its a physical second coming.
 
Cornelius said:
I don't want to clutter this, so I will wait for Benoni to answer after this post :)

Just to clarify a little more: The Bible has two "second comings"
1) One is spiritual (a manifestation in us)
2)Then we have a real one, where its a physical second coming.



And...I believe that's the winner!!! :clap :lol
 
Originally posted by Cornelius
Just to clarify a little more: The Bible has two "second comings"
1) One is spiritual (a manifestation in us)
2)Then we have a real one, where its a physical second coming.

Ok. But isn't that a gimme? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what almost all Christians (aside from our full-preterist friends - as far as the physical second coming) have always believed? Wouldn't really be classified as "Christian" without that "spiritual manifestation"; would you?
 
No where in the Bible does is say there is one second coming let alone two; there are many comings of the Lord; not two. Read my first post.

The word or even idea of a second coming comes from religous doctrine not God's Word.

No one is saying Jesus is not coming; I am just saying I will not limit His comings by these two unscritural religious words, "rapture" and or "second coming".



whirlwind said:
Cornelius said:
I don't want to clutter this, so I will wait for Benoni to answer after this post :)

Just to clarify a little more: The Bible has two "second comings"
1) One is spiritual (a manifestation in us)
2)Then we have a real one, where its a physical second coming.



And...I believe that's the winner!!! :clap :lol
 
I believe the son of perdition is the religious Babylonian system of man; there has been a great falling away when men reject the Christ (anointing) for they have lost their first love and are following another.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD..." (I Thes. 4:16).

"Because the Lord Himself, IN a shout, IN the voice of a chief-messenger, and IN the trump of God, shall come down from heaven." The Lord does not come "with" the trump of God, but "in" the trump of God. If, therefore, we can know what the trump of God is, and are able to recognize its sound, we will have assurance that the Lord Himself has descended from heaven and is present, for He comes to us IN the trump of God.

It is strange what odd notions some people get concerning the meaning of scriptures they read in the Bible. For instance, I was brought up under ministries who taught that every word in the Bible was to be taken literally, and that the word "trumpet," as used in our subject, and also in the book of Revelation and elsewhere, referred to the Lord blowing a literal trumpet when He crashes down through the clouds at the end of this age, a trumpet blast so piercing and electrifying that it would actually awaken the dead bodies in the cemeteries. Nothing, of course, could be farther from the truth than such a strange notion. When Jesus said that He was the vine and His disciples were the branches, He certainly did not mean that He was a literal vine and they were literal branches. When He told His followers they were the salt of the earth, He certainly did not mean that they were literally sodium chloride. The Bible is full of symbols and figures of speech, of which these are but a few. The greatest danger, when we come to the Word of God, is not in "spiritualizing" it away, but in "carnalizing" it away! "The words that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they ARE LIFE," Jesus said.

On one occasion Jesus said, "Behold, I come as a thief" (Rev. 16:15). Paul explained that the Lord would come in a "shout," also in the "voice of the archangel," and in the "trump of God." Certainly thieves do not blow trumpets and shout, nor did Jesus blow a trumpet or shout when He departed from the mount of Olives; although the scripture assures us that He comes "in like manner" even as He went into heaven. But these are not contradictions. They are but word pictures to help our minds comprehend more clearly some of the great factors in the coming of Christ and what the various facets of His coming mean to us spiritually. We know something about the manner of a thief's coming. We know a little concerning the purpose of blowing trumpets. We are familiar with shouts of command. We know something of the characteristics of clouds and what they specify. When we put all these together and add to them the many other illustrations of the scriptures pertaining to Christ's coming, we begin to understand that what we are to look for is not a human being coming down through the rain-clouds tooting a horn, but a series of MIGHTY MANIFESTATIONS OF THE CHRIST IN GREAT SPIRITUAL POWER AND GLORY, shaking everything that is earthly, quickening all that is dead, and transforming men and nations until the prayer is fully answered, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven." In each case the language is metaphorical; of necessity heavenly things are described to us under earthly imagery, otherwise we who have been subjected to this gross material realm, and who speak the language of this world, could not understand them.

The word "trumpet" appears approximately one hundred times in the Bible. In the Old Testament the word is found about eighty-five times while in the New Testament it occurs only about fifteen times. The first use of the term is recorded in Exodus, the last in the book of Revelation. To get the spiritual meaning of trumpets we need to establish something of their typological significance. The meaning of the trumpet is made crystal clear in a number of scriptures. Isaiah said, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up T-H-Y V-O-I-C-E LIKE A TRUMPET, and show My people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins" (Isa. 58:1). Here the voice bearing God's message to His people is likened unto the sounding of a trumpet.

One day as the beloved apostle John trod the burning sands of the desolation of Patmos, he was suddenly caught away in the spirit and immediately, "I heard behind me a great V-O-I-C-E, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:10-11). Here, Christ's voice, as John heard it, is compared to a trumpet. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first V-O-I-C-E which I heard was as it were a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will show you things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1). Notice this trumpet-voice told him to come up higher, so he could see the things God wanted to show him. God's trumpet-message is always to come up higher. It is sent because that is the great need of the saints and of all mankind, to come up into the higher realms of the spirit, for we cannot see the glorious spiritual truths nor behold the wondrous heavenly things from the lowlands of our carnal mind and nature. Normally we "hear" a voice, but John said of the trumpet-voice that penetrated his spiritual consciousness, "And I turned to SEE THE VOICE that spake with me. And being turned, I SAW seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks ONE like unto the Son of man..." (Rev. 1:12-13). The One who spoke with a "voice" as of a "trumpet" was IN the trumpet voice, and it was IN THE MESSAGE OF THE VOICE that this glorious One was revealed. I do not hesitate to tell you that this was the revelation of Jesus Christ as He appeared to John IN THE TRUMP OF GOD!

Isaiah foretells many things pertaining to the day of the Lord, this day in which we live. The trumpet that shall be blown is none other than the voice of God sounding forth. It is His word, His message going out to the people. "And He shall send His angels with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat. 24:31). Now if HE sends HIS messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, it must be HIS TRUMPET they are sounding; His word they are giving out. His mighty message gathers together in the spirit His elect. It brings them from the low places of spiritual experience, to high ones. Oh! think of the power the sound of His trumpet carries to lift men from corruption into His pure divine nature!

"God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET" (Ps. 47:5). When a rising time is due for God's people, it may be said that God is "gone UP," as taken from the lesson that He moved in a pillar of cloud and fire to lead His ancient people, Israel. "With the sound of a trumpet" signifies that His voice is being heard. God's VOICE and His TRUMPET are ore and the same. It is the sounding forth of His Word. Many messengers (His many-membered body) add volume to the sound of that trumpet. Rev. 1:15 says, "...His voice as the sound of MANY WATERS." John also tells us in Rev. 17:15 that waters means multitudes of peoples. So God's trumpet voice is sounding through many people, "many waters." "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a multitude, and as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (Rev. 19:5-6). John heard coming from the throne (divine authority) a message which he said was a voice of a "multitude," of "many waters," and of "mighty thunderings," saying, "Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." It was one trumpet message with many voices adding volume to it. It was ONE MESSAGE, but being trumpeted by many voices, so that it became as the voice of a "great thunder." This shows the beautiful unity in Christ and His many-membered body.

There need be no question in the mind of anyone but that God's "trumpet" is a MESSAGE given to a person or persons and sounded out to the people. The word of the Lord came to the prophet Ezekiel saying, "Son of man, SPEAK to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: if when he see the sword come upon the land, he blow the TRUMPET, and warn the people; then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. SO THOU, O son of man, I have set THEE A WATCHMAN unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at My mouth, and warn them from Me...therefore ... SPEAK unto the house of Israel, saying..." (Eze. 33:2-10).
How clear that the Holy Spirit here equates the VOICE of God's prophet, bearing the Lord's MESSAGE to the house of Israel, with the SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPET of the watchman. The trumpet bespeaks a clear word of God from the Spirit appointed and Spirit anointed messengers, His ministers. Trumpets are words, clear words, living words. The trumpet of God is His voice, His voice from heaven, His voice in the saints; even the voice of the Holy Spirit through the consecrated priests of the Most High. The voice of the Lord is the trumpet-sound and the trumpet-voice, the divine message of His truth and life. The trumpet is the revelation of the Lord speaking through His true ministries in an oracle of the Spirit. The sound of the trumpet is simply the PROCLAMATION OF A MESSAGE!

With a simple knowledge like this we should have no trouble at all in understanding that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos of God, is Himself the trumpet, the message, the revelation! In type, Jesus is the trumpet of God, delivering a clear sound, a living word, and introducing us to the reality of the perfection and incorruptible life of which He is the beginning. Praise God, it is the LORD HIMSELF who comes in the trumpet (message), and at the sound of His voice we are CAUGHT UP with Him to share the glory of His sphere of life. The Lord Himself descends out from the highest realms of our heavens (spirit) into the lower realm of our earth. We are the creatures God is creating to express His nature, power and glory unto creation. His purpose for coming out of the realm of spirit into your earth is to catch your whole being up into the realm of spirit, to swallow up all death into HIS LIFE. And He accomplishes this by coming to us IN A TRUMPET MESSAGE. He comes in a shout, in a voice of command, and in the trump of God because though we are hungry for God and desire more of Him, because of our flesh and the control of the carnal mind we are not easily alerted or moved.

Too numerous to mention have been the things God has taught us as we have walked in the light of His ever-increasing truth. Our minds have often been staggered by the wonderful things we have seen and heard and our ambitions have been raised as we have gazed into the promised land of the Spirit and have seen the innumerable and wonderful glories that lie before us in the fullness of our sonship. We are undoubtedly standing at the threshold of a new dimension in God, a higher realm in the Spirit, and a new level of experience. When we come to a time like this, many will refuse to go on. There is some strange thing inherent in all men that makes them reluctant to leave the security of their fixed abode to press forward into the challenge of the new. They feel that they have journeyed far enough and that the effort to press into the new and more wonderful realm is too great a risk. We tend to become rigid, settled, self confident and and crystallized, - fixed in our gaze and in our pose. In order for us not to miss the next phase of the unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ, God has to sound a shrill trumpet into our hearts that we might be alerted. God is wanting to say and do a NEW THING. It is time to go forward. It is the hour to arise to the battle and possess our land, our full inheritance in God. It is time to leave the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and GO ON TO PERFECTION. It is time to put on the mind of Christ and be transformed by the renewing of our mind. It is time to live and not die. So the Lord descends from heaven in a battle alarm, in the electrifying sound of a trumpet-message, to stimulate, to arouse, to alert and challenge you to get ready for the battle of the ages and the victory of victories that follows!

Today God is trumpeting a message into our hearing. He is projecting into our thinking a realm beyond the feasts of Passover and Pentecost, yea, beyond anything we have heretofore seen, heard, or experienced. He is projecting the fullness of salvation, the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, the King-Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, maturity in the nature and power of sonship and the dynamic realities of the Most Holy Place into us. No matter what our spiritual understanding has been, we are finally being made aware that we are now living in the most momentous hour imaginable. There is an awakening among the elect of the Lord that transcends human knowledge. He is putting into the hearts of His chosen people the desire to ready themselves for the sonship prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

The trumpet-message is alerting our minds to the fact that the sons of God who are being prepared to restore creation are not just ordinary Christians with ordinary experiences. We have tasted of the earnest of our inheritance, and it is now time to arise and enter an entirely new realm of experience in God. I am speaking of the realm which is in truth the realm of the fullness of God, the realm far above all heavens, the realm of incorruptible life and glory, and the realm of the Kingdom in authority and power. Furthermore I am convinced that those who have ears to hear the sound of the trumpet in this hour will attain to the glory of that new realm while the rest of the church world go on as usual in the old realm and on the old planes. Jesus is the revelation of this realm of which I speak because He came forth as the Pattern Son and He spoke a clear sounding word. He is the pattern of this heavenly sonship and He is the Alpha and the Omega of it. He is the beginning of the new creation of God, but you and I are following the forerunner, and just as He trumpeted a clear sounding word, you and I are going to trumpet a clear sounding word to the elect in this generation.

We need to take heed to how we hear, and how we speak and what we speak. The order of man is passing. How? BY THE SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPET! By the very word of your mouth, because of Him who speaks out of you. We might compromise the message and bear a message of appeasement to the old order of the religious systems, but what would that accomplish? I hear the voice of the Lord calling and commanding us today, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand" (Joel 2:1). It has been prophesied that a trumpet would be sounding at this time. If a trumpeter blows an uncertain sound, how will you know to prepare? If the trumpeter has no message, how is he going to speak? God has commanded us to blow a trumpet in Zion and sound an alarm in His holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand. Our job is to sound an alarm in Zion and awaken His people, arouse His elect and let them know THE DAY OF THE LORD IS HERE!

JEby
 
Benoni said:
I believe the son of perdition is the religious Babylonian system of man; there has been a great falling away when men reject the Christ (anointing) for they have lost their first love and are following another.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD..." (I Thes. 4:16).

"Because the Lord Himself, IN a shout, IN the voice of a chief-messenger, and IN the trump of God, shall come down from heaven." The Lord does not come "with" the trump of God, but "in" the trump of God. If, therefore, we can know what the trump of God is, and are able to recognize its sound, we will have assurance that the Lord Himself has descended from heaven and is present, for He comes to us IN the trump of God.

It is strange what odd notions some people get concerning the meaning of scriptures they read in the Bible. For instance, I was brought up under ministries who taught that every word in the Bible was to be taken literally, and that the word "trumpet," as used in our subject, and also in the book of Revelation and elsewhere, referred to the Lord blowing a literal trumpet when He crashes down through the clouds at the end of this age, a trumpet blast so piercing and electrifying that it would actually awaken the dead bodies in the cemeteries. Nothing, of course, could be farther from the truth than such a strange notion. When Jesus said that He was the vine and His disciples were the branches, He certainly did not mean that He was a literal vine and they were literal branches. When He told His followers they were the salt of the earth, He certainly did not mean that they were literally sodium chloride. The Bible is full of symbols and figures of speech, of which these are but a few. The greatest danger, when we come to the Word of God, is not in "spiritualizing" it away, but in "carnalizing" it away! "The words that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they ARE LIFE," Jesus said.

On one occasion Jesus said, "Behold, I come as a thief" (Rev. 16:15). Paul explained that the Lord would come in a "shout," also in the "voice of the archangel," and in the "trump of God." Certainly thieves do not blow trumpets and shout, nor did Jesus blow a trumpet or shout when He departed from the mount of Olives; although the scripture assures us that He comes "in like manner" even as He went into heaven. But these are not contradictions. They are but word pictures to help our minds comprehend more clearly some of the great factors in the coming of Christ and what the various facets of His coming mean to us spiritually. We know something about the manner of a thief's coming. We know a little concerning the purpose of blowing trumpets. We are familiar with shouts of command. We know something of the characteristics of clouds and what they specify. When we put all these together and add to them the many other illustrations of the scriptures pertaining to Christ's coming, we begin to understand that what we are to look for is not a human being coming down through the rain-clouds tooting a horn, but a series of MIGHTY MANIFESTATIONS OF THE CHRIST IN GREAT SPIRITUAL POWER AND GLORY, shaking everything that is earthly, quickening all that is dead, and transforming men and nations until the prayer is fully answered, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven." In each case the language is metaphorical; of necessity heavenly things are described to us under earthly imagery, otherwise we who have been subjected to this gross material realm, and who speak the language of this world, could not understand them.

The word "trumpet" appears approximately one hundred times in the Bible. In the Old Testament the word is found about eighty-five times while in the New Testament it occurs only about fifteen times. The first use of the term is recorded in Exodus, the last in the book of Revelation. To get the spiritual meaning of trumpets we need to establish something of their typological significance. The meaning of the trumpet is made crystal clear in a number of scriptures. Isaiah said, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up T-H-Y V-O-I-C-E LIKE A TRUMPET, and show My people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins" (Isa. 58:1). Here the voice bearing God's message to His people is likened unto the sounding of a trumpet.

One day as the beloved apostle John trod the burning sands of the desolation of Patmos, he was suddenly caught away in the spirit and immediately, "I heard behind me a great V-O-I-C-E, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:10-11). Here, Christ's voice, as John heard it, is compared to a trumpet. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first V-O-I-C-E which I heard was as it were a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will show you things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1). Notice this trumpet-voice told him to come up higher, so he could see the things God wanted to show him. God's trumpet-message is always to come up higher. It is sent because that is the great need of the saints and of all mankind, to come up into the higher realms of the spirit, for we cannot see the glorious spiritual truths nor behold the wondrous heavenly things from the lowlands of our carnal mind and nature. Normally we "hear" a voice, but John said of the trumpet-voice that penetrated his spiritual consciousness, "And I turned to SEE THE VOICE that spake with me. And being turned, I SAW seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks ONE like unto the Son of man..." (Rev. 1:12-13). The One who spoke with a "voice" as of a "trumpet" was IN the trumpet voice, and it was IN THE MESSAGE OF THE VOICE that this glorious One was revealed. I do not hesitate to tell you that this was the revelation of Jesus Christ as He appeared to John IN THE TRUMP OF GOD!

Isaiah foretells many things pertaining to the day of the Lord, this day in which we live. The trumpet that shall be blown is none other than the voice of God sounding forth. It is His word, His message going out to the people. "And He shall send His angels with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat. 24:31). Now if HE sends HIS messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, it must be HIS TRUMPET they are sounding; His word they are giving out. His mighty message gathers together in the spirit His elect. It brings them from the low places of spiritual experience, to high ones. Oh! think of the power the sound of His trumpet carries to lift men from corruption into His pure divine nature!

"God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET" (Ps. 47:5). When a rising time is due for God's people, it may be said that God is "gone UP," as taken from the lesson that He moved in a pillar of cloud and fire to lead His ancient people, Israel. "With the sound of a trumpet" signifies that His voice is being heard. God's VOICE and His TRUMPET are ore and the same. It is the sounding forth of His Word. Many messengers (His many-membered body) add volume to the sound of that trumpet. Rev. 1:15 says, "...His voice as the sound of MANY WATERS." John also tells us in Rev. 17:15 that waters means multitudes of peoples. So God's trumpet voice is sounding through many people, "many waters." "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a multitude, and as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (Rev. 19:5-6). John heard coming from the throne (divine authority) a message which he said was a voice of a "multitude," of "many waters," and of "mighty thunderings," saying, "Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." It was one trumpet message with many voices adding volume to it. It was ONE MESSAGE, but being trumpeted by many voices, so that it became as the voice of a "great thunder." This shows the beautiful unity in Christ and His many-membered body.

There need be no question in the mind of anyone but that God's "trumpet" is a MESSAGE given to a person or persons and sounded out to the people. The word of the Lord came to the prophet Ezekiel saying, "Son of man, SPEAK to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: if when he see the sword come upon the land, he blow the TRUMPET, and warn the people; then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. SO THOU, O son of man, I have set THEE A WATCHMAN unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at My mouth, and warn them from Me...therefore ... SPEAK unto the house of Israel, saying..." (Eze. 33:2-10).
How clear that the Holy Spirit here equates the VOICE of God's prophet, bearing the Lord's MESSAGE to the house of Israel, with the SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPET of the watchman. The trumpet bespeaks a clear word of God from the Spirit appointed and Spirit anointed messengers, His ministers. Trumpets are words, clear words, living words. The trumpet of God is His voice, His voice from heaven, His voice in the saints; even the voice of the Holy Spirit through the consecrated priests of the Most High. The voice of the Lord is the trumpet-sound and the trumpet-voice, the divine message of His truth and life. The trumpet is the revelation of the Lord speaking through His true ministries in an oracle of the Spirit. The sound of the trumpet is simply the PROCLAMATION OF A MESSAGE!

With a simple knowledge like this we should have no trouble at all in understanding that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos of God, is Himself the trumpet, the message, the revelation! In type, Jesus is the trumpet of God, delivering a clear sound, a living word, and introducing us to the reality of the perfection and incorruptible life of which He is the beginning. Praise God, it is the LORD HIMSELF who comes in the trumpet (message), and at the sound of His voice we are CAUGHT UP with Him to share the glory of His sphere of life. The Lord Himself descends out from the highest realms of our heavens (spirit) into the lower realm of our earth. We are the creatures God is creating to express His nature, power and glory unto creation. His purpose for coming out of the realm of spirit into your earth is to catch your whole being up into the realm of spirit, to swallow up all death into HIS LIFE. And He accomplishes this by coming to us IN A TRUMPET MESSAGE. He comes in a shout, in a voice of command, and in the trump of God because though we are hungry for God and desire more of Him, because of our flesh and the control of the carnal mind we are not easily alerted or moved.

Too numerous to mention have been the things God has taught us as we have walked in the light of His ever-increasing truth. Our minds have often been staggered by the wonderful things we have seen and heard and our ambitions have been raised as we have gazed into the promised land of the Spirit and have seen the innumerable and wonderful glories that lie before us in the fullness of our sonship. We are undoubtedly standing at the threshold of a new dimension in God, a higher realm in the Spirit, and a new level of experience. When we come to a time like this, many will refuse to go on. There is some strange thing inherent in all men that makes them reluctant to leave the security of their fixed abode to press forward into the challenge of the new. They feel that they have journeyed far enough and that the effort to press into the new and more wonderful realm is too great a risk. We tend to become rigid, settled, self confident and and crystallized, - fixed in our gaze and in our pose. In order for us not to miss the next phase of the unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ, God has to sound a shrill trumpet into our hearts that we might be alerted. God is wanting to say and do a NEW THING. It is time to go forward. It is the hour to arise to the battle and possess our land, our full inheritance in God. It is time to leave the first principles of the doctrine of Christ and GO ON TO PERFECTION. It is time to put on the mind of Christ and be transformed by the renewing of our mind. It is time to live and not die. So the Lord descends from heaven in a battle alarm, in the electrifying sound of a trumpet-message, to stimulate, to arouse, to alert and challenge you to get ready for the battle of the ages and the victory of victories that follows!

Today God is trumpeting a message into our hearing. He is projecting into our thinking a realm beyond the feasts of Passover and Pentecost, yea, beyond anything we have heretofore seen, heard, or experienced. He is projecting the fullness of salvation, the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, the King-Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, maturity in the nature and power of sonship and the dynamic realities of the Most Holy Place into us. No matter what our spiritual understanding has been, we are finally being made aware that we are now living in the most momentous hour imaginable. There is an awakening among the elect of the Lord that transcends human knowledge. He is putting into the hearts of His chosen people the desire to ready themselves for the sonship prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

The trumpet-message is alerting our minds to the fact that the sons of God who are being prepared to restore creation are not just ordinary Christians with ordinary experiences. We have tasted of the earnest of our inheritance, and it is now time to arise and enter an entirely new realm of experience in God. I am speaking of the realm which is in truth the realm of the fullness of God, the realm far above all heavens, the realm of incorruptible life and glory, and the realm of the Kingdom in authority and power. Furthermore I am convinced that those who have ears to hear the sound of the trumpet in this hour will attain to the glory of that new realm while the rest of the church world go on as usual in the old realm and on the old planes. Jesus is the revelation of this realm of which I speak because He came forth as the Pattern Son and He spoke a clear sounding word. He is the pattern of this heavenly sonship and He is the Alpha and the Omega of it. He is the beginning of the new creation of God, but you and I are following the forerunner, and just as He trumpeted a clear sounding word, you and I are going to trumpet a clear sounding word to the elect in this generation.

We need to take heed to how we hear, and how we speak and what we speak. The order of man is passing. How? BY THE SOUNDING OF THE TRUMPET! By the very word of your mouth, because of Him who speaks out of you. We might compromise the message and bear a message of appeasement to the old order of the religious systems, but what would that accomplish? I hear the voice of the Lord calling and commanding us today, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand" (Joel 2:1). It has been prophesied that a trumpet would be sounding at this time. If a trumpeter blows an uncertain sound, how will you know to prepare? If the trumpeter has no message, how is he going to speak? God has commanded us to blow a trumpet in Zion and sound an alarm in His holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand. Our job is to sound an alarm in Zion and awaken His people, arouse His elect and let them know THE DAY OF THE LORD IS HERE!

JEby

J. Preston Eby, "Looking For His Appearing, Part 48, Coming As A Thief." Kingdom bible Studies in End-Time Revelation, Part Forty-Eight, Watching For His Appearing." http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/ ... look41.htm

Benoni: I am a writer. As you probably know, writing is hard work. Nothing disturbed me more than posters using other people's work without acknowledging the author. I appreciate that you have at least indicated Eby's name at the bottom of your post. But I must admit, that I missed it entirely and was about to accuse you of plagiarism! If you are to submit such a large portion of someone else's work, I believe it proper to give the exact location of that work. The author deserves no less, right? Without a link to the author's entire work, someone could easily take his words out of context!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34
 
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