There is no such place as " Hell " according to Holy Scripture... Part 1

[reba]

2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussion of these doctrines are is fine, as long as the beliefs foreign to Christianity (as defined above) are not actively promoted or held in balance with orthodox Christianity. This includes Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine where discussion is limited to and only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.

Do not reply to this post in this thread

 

[smaller]

Could you help me then. What do the verses mean thst I quoted, if not as they read?

I don't know why ANY serious Christian has any problem whatsoever with the devil and his messengers landing in the Lake of Fire forever and ever in eternal conscious torment. Matt. 23:33, Matt. 25:41, Rev. 14:10-11, Rev. 20:10, etc.

This should not present any theological problems to any Christian.

 

[Free]

How could any one love a God who is the creator of humanity, yet brings the vast majority into being only to live for a relatively short period of time, and then suffer conscious eternal torment?
I can't!
And, praise God, the inspired Scriptures when properly translated decry such a thing.

I believe that there is something that needs addressing before we proceed too far, a belief that is common on all sides of the issue but is not correct. This is the idea, as you have stated, that all in hell will "suffer conscious eternal torment." While I believe all in hell will likely be there for all eternity, hence the punishment being eternal, I do not think the Bible teaches "eternal torment," or as most people use that phrase to mean, eternal physical torture and pain.

Here is a key Bible passage that doesn't get brought up often. In fact, I've never seen anyone else bring it up (not that I'm big into this particular subject nor all that well read on it), so I could be wrong about it.

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

It seems to me that while the Bible teaches the punishment in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers; different levels of reward for believers.

So I do not agree that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

 

[Jim Parker]

I like universalism, ....

So did Origen based on the scriptural doctrine of the restoration of all things (Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:28) but he didn't make an issue of his idea and it was never an Orthodox doctrine.
Neither has it been rejected in so many words or declared heresy by the Orthodox church.
There's a good presentation of universalism (Apocatastasis) at http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/12108/universalism-in-the-orthodox-church

I subscribe to the Greek Orthodox view that heaven and hell aren't separate places but conditions--if you've rejected God, you'll experience His presence as all-consuming fire.

As presented in “THE RIVER OF FIRE” by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS?
I think he's probably got it right.

I think damnation is something we do to ourselves.

Absolutely.
We can repent and believe the Gospel or we can reject the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus and choose eternal death separated from Christ Jesus in whom is life.


iakove the fool

 

[Free]

For example: Christ's sacrifice on the cross is for all mankind: John 1:29 "...John seeth Jesus...and saith, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD, WHICH TAKETHAWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." KJV, etc.
John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
John 12:47 ..."I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
1Tim 2:3,4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1 Tim 4:10 "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
These are just a few that tell me that God's grace is greater than all our sins.

If you think the Bible teaches that everyone will eventually saved, it doesn't. And don't promote that on these forums as it is a violation of the TOS. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that not everyone will be saved.

Could you help me then. What do the verses mean thst I quoted, if not as they read?

Firstly, any doctrine of salvation must take into account all that the Bible says, and make sense of all of it. This is the larger context. We cannot say that such verses as you have given above somehow override all other verses that show otherwise. So the first thing we must do is consider all passages on this subject, such as the following (not exhaustive; all ESV):

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
...
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Just as an aside, Matthew uses the same word for "eternal" for both punishment and life. The only conclusion then is that if the punishment isn't eternal, and there will very clearly be punishment for those who reject Christ in this life, then the life for believers isn't eternal either.

2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

There are, of course, many other passages that need to be considered as well.

So when we then consider the passages you have given, we need to make sense of all of it. We cannot say that the passages you have given somehow override the ones I have given, or vice versa. But let's consider what we do know to be true:

1. There will be punishment in hell.
2. The punishment is not the same for all in hell.
3. That punishment will last as long as life for the believers.

When we look at John 12:32, is there a way in which we can understand it and be consistent with the points above? Sure. Looking at the context, we see in verse 20 that there were Greeks as well as Jews in Jesus' audience. We can see then that "all people" likely means "all kinds of people," that is, people from every nation and of every status. And I think this would be the same for verse 47. The early passages in John that I provided support this idea quite strongly.

Regarding 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it cannot mean that all will be saved, none of the verse you have provided can, as this would contradict the other passages that show not all will be saved. The ESV renders those verses as follows:

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And it is important to note that throughout the rest of 1 Tim., Paul strongly suggests that not all will be saved:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1Ti 5:24 The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

As to 1 Tim. 4:10, there are several possible understandings of that verse, none of which is that it teaches all will be saved. For instance, it could be saying that salvation is made available to all but that only some will receive it. Or, a legitimate translation could be "the Savior of all people, namely, those who believe" (from the study notes in my ESV Study Bible).

And similarly for 1 John 2:2. It likely means that although Jesus' sacrifice is made available to the whole world, only those who believe and repent will be saved. There are several other passages in 1 John that indicate only those who repent will be saved, which supports the previous point.

 

[Bick]

Firstly, any doctrine of salvation must take into account all that the Bible says, and make sense of all of it. This is the larger context. We cannot say that such verses as you have given above somehow override all other verses that show otherwise. So the first thing we must do is consider all passages on this subject, such as the following (not exhaustive; all ESV):

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
...
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Just as an aside, Matthew uses the same word for "eternal" for both punishment and life. The only conclusion then is that if the punishment isn't eternal, and there will very clearly be punishment for those who reject Christ in this life, then the life for believers isn't eternal either.

2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

There are, of course, many other passages that need to be considered as well.

So when we then consider the passages you have given, we need to make sense of all of it. We cannot say that the passages you have given somehow override the ones I have given, or vice versa. But let's consider what we do know to be true:

1. There will be punishment in hell.
2. The punishment is not the same for all in hell.
3. That punishment will last as long as life for the believers.

When we look at John 12:32, is there a way in which we can understand it and be consistent with the points above? Sure. Looking at the context, we see in verse 20 that there were Greeks as well as Jews in Jesus' audience. We can see then that "all people" likely means "all kinds of people," that is, people from every nation and of every status. And I think this would be the same for verse 47. The early passages in John that I provided support this idea quite strongly.

Regarding 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it cannot mean that all will be saved, none of the verse you have provided can, as this would contradict the other passages that show not all will be saved. The ESV renders those verses as follows:

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And it is important to note that throughout the rest of 1 Tim., Paul strongly suggests that not all will be saved:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1Ti 5:24 The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

As to 1 Tim. 4:10, there are several possible understandings of that verse, none of which is that it teaches all will be saved. For instance, it could be saying that salvation is made available to all but that only some will receive it. Or, a legitimate translation could be "the Savior of all people, namely, those who believe" (from the study notes in my ESV Study Bible).

And similarly for 1 John 2:2. It likely means that although Jesus' sacrifice is made available to the whole world, only those who believe and repent will be saved. There are several other passages in 1 John that indicate only those who repent will be saved, which supports the previous point.

Yes, it would seem there are controversies. But since I believe there are none, there must be an explanation, and there is, not in the bulk of the English Versions, but in literal translations.
I.E., you have quoted many verses where "eternal punishment" or judgment in hell. Now, this can't be true, because all those will be raised to be judged before the Great White throne; therefore, it was mot "eternal", it was for a given time (an eon or age). And that is what the originsl Greek word means.
All for now, it is late.

 

[Jim Parker]

the Great White throne;

The "Great White Throne judgment" is mentioned once at Rev 20:11. It is the writer's best effort to relate in human language the ecstatic, apocalyptic visions he experienced.
And a whole section of Christianity has now made up a "new revelation" of what that "really" means but which no one knew anything about for 1800 years before John Darby came on the scene.

The historical christian teaching, from the beginning of the church, is that Jesus is coming back ONE time to judge ALL the living and ALL the dead. That is what has been taught since the first Pentecost.

However, there were some very important early church leaders who believed in universal salvation. It just never became an official doctrine but neither was it officially rejected.

It's a mystery and we don't need to know what's going to happen after the last days. We just need to know what God desires of us and to do it.

 

[smaller]

The "Great White Throne judgment" is mentioned once at Rev 20:11. It is the writer's best effort to relate in human language the ecstatic, apocalyptic visions he experienced.
And a whole section of Christianity has now made up a "new revelation" of what that "really" means but which no one knew anything about for 1800 years before John Darby came on the scene.

E.O. has "a version" of possibility. But I would not call that sight as one universally held by the church whatsoever. Nor is John Darby's version accurate. To me, not accurate at all.

What we DO have in Rev. is a lot of symbology/similitude to wade through. Sights from the realm of the Spirit or how the Spirit sees things, which obviously is not the same way we see things through the fleshly senses.

There is no way for us to picture a "Lake of Fire." And to say, as the E.O. does, that the Lake of Fire is God is to me a bit of a stretch. Rev. 14:10-11, Rev. 20:10.

We do know that the wicked will find their place therein, but to even think this FIRE is LIGHT is not necessarily true, for example, here:

Rev. 22:
15 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matt. 8:12 and Matt. 25:30 show this as "outer darkness."

Scriptures also describe the above as an OUTSIDE state or a "without" state. Nothing that 'defiles' will enter:

Rev. 21:
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

(we should not take the above sight as literal dogs, so obviously this entire string of text has to be seen spiritually.)

And the notions that such will no longer exist is simply not true. Here we are shown that they will continue to be 'unjust and filthy.'

Rev. 21:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The historical christian teaching, from the beginning of the church, is that Jesus is coming back ONE time to judge ALL the living and ALL the dead. That is what has been taught since the first Pentecost.

Few believers disagree with that. It is only the particulars that vary.

However, there were some very important early church leaders who believed in universal salvation. It just never became an official doctrine but neither was it officially rejected.

True on that as well. And surprisingly a small amount of determinists such as K. Barth came to a "similar conclusion" that it can't be ruled out. Not that he or they you speak of above actually held the sight other than as a possibility, and a limited sight at that, for example, not extending to Satanic salvation.

It's a mystery and we don't need to know what's going to happen after the last days. We just need to know what God desires of us and to do it.

True. Whatever any of us sees now is supposed and meant to be fuzzy. That's why I reject the notions of any sect claiming to have 'all truth.' Everyone sees only "in part" so "all truth" is off the table. If a person has any form of "all truth" part of that includes seeing only "in part." It's a vicious paradox and a logical fallacy to fall into the deception of having all truth without the fact of partial sight. 1 Cor. 13:12.

Church leaders of orthodoxy don't even realize how lame their claims are when they claim to have "all truth" but only see "in part." ding!

 

[smaller]

Yes, it would seem there are controversies. But since I believe there are none, there must be an explanation, and there is, not in the bulk of the English Versions, but in literal translations.
I.E., you have quoted many verses where "eternal punishment" or judgment in hell. Now, this can't be true, because all those will be raised to be judged before the Great White throne; therefore, it was mot "eternal", it was for a given time (an eon or age). And that is what the originsl Greek word means.
All for now, it is late.

Scriptures assuredly show eternal torment for Satan. Rev. 20:10.

Deal with that fact and the balance will fall into place.

 

[JohnDB]

What I am confident of about Heaven and Hell is that I don't know much...And that I can't know much.

What I mean by that is I was studying some of the implications of the Higgs-Boson particles and the multiverse theories.

If the laws of physics that apply to this "dimension" of universe don't really apply to others...Then things like time, before, after, and now aren't relevant. And all my thoughts are bound by those concepts.

I do understand and am positive that good VX bad will definitely exist.

So I know that I want Heaven. I don't want hell or death.
And where metaphoric languages are descriptive...They are lacking in scientific precision. So to try and force a scientific precision on a ton of metaphors and allegory for a universe that likely has none of the same laws of physics...Kinda is rather ironic...

 

[smaller]

What I am confident of about Heaven and Hell is that I don't know much...And that I can't know much.

What I mean by that is I was studying some of the implications of the Higgs-Boson particles and the multiverse theories.

If the laws of physics that apply to this "dimension" of universe don't really apply to others...Then things like time, before, after, and now aren't relevant. And all my thoughts are bound by those concepts.

I do understand and am positive that good VX bad will definitely exist.

So I know that I want Heaven. I don't want hell or death.
And where metaphoric languages are descriptive...They are lacking in scientific precision. So to try and force a scientific precision on a ton of metaphors and allegory for a universe that likely has none of the same laws of physics...Kinda is rather ironic...

Try to even begin to imagine a state or condition where there are no powers whatsoever. Our minds can't even begin to wrap our heads around that matter:

Yet, that IS where we are being taken:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Think of it as molecular DE-adhesion.

 

[Free]

Yes, it would seem there are controversies. But since I believe there are none, there must be an explanation, and there is, not in the bulk of the English Versions, but in literal translations.
I.E., you have quoted many verses where "eternal punishment" or judgment in hell. Now, this can't be true, because all those will be raised to be judged before the Great White throne; therefore, it was mot "eternal", it was for a given time (an eon or age). And that is what the originsl Greek word means.
All for now, it is late.

I think you quickly skimmed my post as you didn't attempt to address any point I made. If you did, you would see that one of my points showed that the duration of punishment is going to be the same as the duration of life for the saved. There are other passages which speak of the worm that does not die and the fire that will not be quenched. The punishment that the Bible speaks of is the final punishment in hell, the lake of fire, which occurs after the Judgement. There may be some now prior to judgement, I don't know.

 

[Jim Parker]

And where metaphoric languages are descriptive...They are lacking in scientific precision. So to try and force a scientific precision on a ton of metaphors and allegory for a universe that likely has none of the same laws of physics...Kinda is rather ironic...

It is rarely pointed out to believers who are reading their Bibles that they are reading literature. And, as such, it if full of metaphor, allegory, poetry, simile, and every other literary device known to man. It is an artifact of our western, scientific mind-set that we try to such "6 sigma" mathematical precision to the meaning of scripture.
The writers of scripture would look at us with bewilderment if we could go back and talk with them. Such precision in communication was unknown in the times and places when and where scripture was being written. (1500BC ti 100AD in the Ancient Middle East)

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is rarely pointed out to believers who are reading their Bibles that they are reading literature. And, as such, it if full of metaphor, allegory, poetry, simile, and every other literary device known to man. It is an artifact of our western, scientific mind-set that we try to such "6 sigma" mathematical precision to the meaning of scripture.
The writers of scripture would look at us with bewilderment if we could go back and talk with them. Such precision in communication was unknown in the times and places when and where scripture was being written. (1500BC ti 100AD in the Ancient Middle East)

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Agreed and when insist on, for example, using the definition of... say replenish they drive me nuts.
That was the word the Translators used in the seventeenth century. In the last 400 years the usage has narrowed a bit and not only does the average reader not consider this, they don't own a single lexicon to get some idea of what the original woerd meant in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, ot Koine Greek. As a people we have to be lazy louts.

 

[Jim Parker]

Agreed and when insist on, for example, using the definition of... say replenish they drive me nuts.
That was the word the Translators used in the seventeenth century. In the last 400 years the usage has narrowed a bit and not only does the average reader not consider this, they don't own a single lexicon to get some idea of what the original woerd meant in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek. As a people we have to be lazy louts.

English is a "living language"; it changes over time.
In 1950, if you were "gay" you were "happy-go-lucky." In England, the word "fag" is still used to refer to a cigarette. (Hold over from early 20th century usage)

The KJ only folk drive me nuts. They don't even speak the Late Middle English used by the writers and certainly have no concept of the grammar and syntax of that 500 year old language. Then they compound the problem by using a modern dictionary of American English to look up the meaning of words written 500 years ago in England.

These are commonly self-declared Bible experts.

oi veh (kvetch kvetch kvetch)

iakov the fool

 

[JohnDB]

English is a "living language"; it changes over time.
In 1950, if you were "gay" you were "happy-go-lucky." In England, the word "fag" is still used to refer to a cigarette. (Hold over from early 20th century usage)

The KJ only folk drive me nuts. They don't even speak the Late Middle English used by the writers and certainly have no concept of the grammar and syntax of that 500 year old language. Then they compound the problem by using a modern dictionary of American English to look up the meaning of words written 500 years ago in England.

These are commonly self-declared Bible experts.

oi veh (kvetch kvetch kvetch)

iakov the fool

And add in the forward of the 1611 KJV, especially the parts about making a "modern translation" of the scriptures and that when the day came that a new translation was needed .....

Well, I'm sure that you understand.