There will be NO Secret Rapture!

[ILTL888]

Why would God want to save their flesh?
How is flesh saved by gathering it to Heaven?
How can flesh enter Heaven?

Is it the flesh of the elect that is saved? Or is it the soul which is promised a resurrected body?


That's not how I view it. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in your viewpoint.



Flesh dwelling in heaven? What? Your idea makes no sense given the context of the rest of the passage:

Mat 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 - And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 - Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 - Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 - Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 - For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.​

Who is Jesus talking to here?
Who does Jesus mean by the word "you"?
Who are "they" (Matt 24:24)?
How are they tempting "you"(Matt 24:26) with falsehoods if the elect are in Heaven?

Jesus' audience of "you" has obviously not been promised a rapture into Heaven, or there would not be the warnings to the "you" of Matt 24:23-24,26 that are given for "then"(Matt 24:23), meaning after the tribulation has been cut short.

Those days refer to the tribulation, thus it is the tribulation that is shortened. The elect go through the tribulation in the flesh along with the non-elect. The tribulation is cut short to save the physical lives of the elect, but some of the non-elect also make it through. These are the men who promote the deceptions of Matt 24:23-24,26.

First off you ask me if it's the flesh of the elect or the soul. Ultimately it is the soul, but currently the soul is in flesh form. So if it just mentioned that the souls would be saved, that wouldn't let you know that they would be raptured without seeing death. As souls can be saved with seeing physical death.

I apologize as the way I worded it could make it seem I meant to say that God was saving their flesh to enter heaven, but that's not what I meant.

The mix up was from me posting the scripture in this translated version, "Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

..but then I replaced the word "one" with "flesh" where it reads, "no one would sruvive". I mixed it up with the King James Version that reads, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Flesh(man) is saved from not seeing death, not for heaven. If flesh(man in his current state) is not saved from death, it sees death, plain and simple. I didn't mean it to mean that he actually preserves flesh material for heaven, for the imperishable cannot enter heaven. It's just another way of saying that the imperishable doesn't see death. If there is no flesh(man) saved, then that contradicts that passage.

Not once have I ever mentioned that there will be flesh in heaven. Sorry for the mix up.

As far as the other things you've mentioned, Jesus is speaking to all the believers. As the Bible is for the salvation of all men, and from his time there will be encounters with false Christs and prophets until the end. He does speak of a time frame of false Christs/prophets appearing during the Tribulation that could deceive the very elect(if that were possible). First off there is no establishment of when the elect will be raptured, so who is to say that the elect won't be around for part of the tribulation when these many more false Christs/prophets appear to not be deceived?

I never mentioned a date of when the elect will be raptured, so how do you assume that I said they would be gone before the great tribulation?
The Bible says to test spirits, so please continue on if it only brings out the truth.
I'm only explaining the Bible for what it says itself.

There is only one truth.

We must prepare for the worst

Revelation 14:13 "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

 

[ILTL888]

....

 

[reba]

Where?

sa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

888 It is so easy for a post to get skipped over so maybe you missed that the above quote was the second question.

Post 13 is a passage of Scripture you stated

This begins says how Satan has fallen and been cut to the grown, but then it goes on saying he will ascend into heaven and will exalt his throne above the stars of God. It continues going on saying Satan will ascend above the heights of the clouds(in the heavens), he will be like the most high. It then finishes saying ultimately he will be brought down for the final time, without ever being able to return to the heavens and will be cast into hell.

I posted the scripture asking if you would point out to me, the passage that shows satan is in heaven now. thanks

 

[Acebopata]

An interesting point to make is that if the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet, you still have the seven plagues to deal with, which would technically make it more of a Mid- tribulation, or a two-thirds tribulation.

To be a post tribulation rapture, the rapture must occur either when Jesus returns to the mount of olives, or after the 1000 years Satan is bound.

Then the Pre-tribulation rapture must occur the right before the exact nano second the tribulation starts.

If the rapture starts more than one week before the start of the tribulation, then you have a Pre-Pre-tribulation rapture, or a Pre-2X-tribulation rapture.

 

[ILTL888]

888 It is so easy for a post to get skipped over so maybe you missed that the above quote was the second question.

Post 13 is a passage of Scripture you stated
I posted the scripture asking if you would point out to me, the passage that shows satan is in heaven now. thanks

I already made my points with Revelations Chapter 12 and Daniel Chapter 12. If my points made with them two chapters are incorrect, can you please explain them?

 

[ILTL888]

An interesting point to make is that if the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet, you still have the seven plagues to deal with, which would technically make it more of a Mid- tribulation, or a two-thirds tribulation.

To be a post tribulation rapture, the rapture must occur either when Jesus returns to the mount of olives, or after the 1000 years Satan is bound.

Then the Pre-tribulation rapture must occur the right before the exact nano second the tribulation starts.

If the rapture starts more than one week before the start of the tribulation, then you have a Pre-Pre-tribulation rapture, or a Pre-2X-tribulation rapture.

What's interesting is it says the woman will be kept safe in a place prepared for her by god for 1,260 days. Which is just about 3.5 years, which is half of 7 year tribulation.

 

[jasoncran]

can the pre tribbers or any tribber reconcile these for me?

1) the idea that in any historical judgment of wrath theres no removal of saints from the scene just that judgment avoids them. however there is one exception noah and his family and add two lots and his daughters.
2) the time frame of seven yrs from the rapture violates no man knoweth the hour
3) the context of one man is at the plow the other taken and so forth is in with the days of noah being the same state as the days of when the lord comes. and what happed with noah? he wasnt taken from the earth but the sinners were.
4) where in the nt does the bible promise no death from satan or man for his peoples(chrisitians)
5) how should the trib saints take this verse use by all tribbers

comfort ye one an another with these words.. in context pauls spoke to the corintians that the comming hasnt happened yet and the ressurection hant occured. if said rapture is that then what then for the trib saints?

 

[reba]

Here is a part of your post i highlited the the sentence i am questioning?

This begins says how Satan has fallen and been cut to the grown, but then it goes on saying he will ascend into heaven and will exalt his throne above the stars of God. It continues going on saying Satan will ascend above the heights of the clouds(in the heavens), he will be like the most high. It then finishes saying ultimately he will be brought down for the final time, without ever being able to return to the heavens and will be cast into hell.

I posted this asking you where in the scripture do you fine what you say.

Originally Posted by reba
Where?

sa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

 

[ILTL888]

can the pre tribbers or any tribber reconcile these for me?

1) the idea that in any historical judgment of wrath theres no removal of saints from the scene just that judgment avoids them. however there is one exception noah and his family and add two lots and his daughters.
2) the time frame of seven yrs from the rapture violates no man knoweth the hour
3) the context of one man is at the plow the other taken and so forth is in with the days of noah being the same state as the days of when the lord comes. and what happed with noah? he wasnt taken from the earth but the sinners were.
4) where in the nt does the bible promise no death from satan or man for his peoples(chrisitians)
5) how should the trib saints take this verse use by all tribbers

comfort ye one an another with these words.. in context pauls spoke to the corintians that the comming hasnt happened yet and the ressurection hant occured. if said rapture is that then what then for the trib saints?

Before I run through the list of things you ask explaining for, I would like to start off with asking you to explain what this scripture means.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This clearly states that there will be people dwelling in heaven during the time that the dragon is cast down to earth in the end times.

Now you continue with the time line of Revelation and read this towards the end...

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now how can people be dwelling in heaven when the dragon got cast down and knows that his time is short if the first resurrection doesn't happen until the end of the dragons short time on earth after he is captured?

Did the Bible contradict itself? Is there anything that could possibly make a connection to oppose a possible contradiction?

I'm going to be chaining things together so please follow what I'm getting at...


What's interesting is Jesus says , ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the WILL of my Father who is in heaven."

Now read this...

Revelation 2:


"26 To the one who is victorious and does my WILL(which means not by his own works) to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Also... "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."


Now... "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

What we've gathered is that there will be a people who does the lords will, who will rule with an iron scepter, who will judge the world(even angels), and who will have the right to sit with the lord on his throne.

The great multitude is said to be standing before the throne in white robes holding palm branches. So who are these people that have the right to sit with the lord at his throne? The only other group I can find is the 144,000. The ones who I believe are the bride of Christ who were given fine linen, bright and clean to wear, opposed to wearing white robes.

The 144,000 are also mentioned of learning a new song that no on can learn, because they have been redeemed from the earth. They are standing on mount zion(heaven?), could that be relating to this event?

"12Therefore rejoice(singing a new song?), ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them."



Now what I'm getting at is in Revelation 20, after Satan is captured, it mentions the scene of they which were seated on thrones and who had been given authority to judge. Now remember what I connected above. Then there is seen the people who have been slain who had been part of the first resurrection.<br />

So now we see that there is a connection and the Bible isn't contradicting itself

"4) where in the nt does the bible promise no death from satan or man for his peoples(chrisitians)?"
Once again, "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." Not only this scripture, but also Revelations 12 explaining the women wearing a crown with 12 stars, who I believe is symbolizing the Bride of Christ, the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. As I believe they are the ones dwelling in the heavens and rejoicing before the first resurrection occurs. If they are not part of the first resurrection, but are in heaven before it, I can only conclude that they were part of a rapture, redeemed from the earth.


Enoch was translated without seeing death, so this isn't anything new. Also this event in the end times is going to be greater than anything that has previously happened, so saying that this kind of event never took place in the past doesn't mean it won't happen to the finale of the people that God has been waiting for. This will be the end of days, so why would God want to keep them on the earth like he did with Noah and others?

You say, "2) the time frame of seven yrs from the rapture violates no man knoweth the hour", but who is to know when this 7 year period begins? So how is it possible to pinpoint a day or an hour?

As far as the rest that you mentioned, like I said, please explain Revelation 12 for me if it doesn't mean what I mentioned it does. Rather yet, what the Bible clearly says.

Can anyone else give me a different explanation of what Revelation 12 is saying?
If not, then why would you disagree?

 

[ILTL888]

Here is a part of your post i highlited the the sentence i am questioning?


I posted this asking you where in the scripture do you fine what you say.

Originally Posted by reba
Where?

sa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

I pretty much repeated what the scripture says. Instead of having to repeat myself...

Can you please show me where it doesn't say what I said?

Also please answer this. Do you disagree that Satan/Dragon is currently in the heavens?

 

[reba]

sa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


God's word is quoting satan in the blue verses. God is not saying satan is in heaven.


Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

 

[reba]

Also please answer this. Do you disagree that Satan/Dragon is currently in the heavens?

What do you mean by the word heavens?

The blue sky? Our universe? (For lack of better vocabulary) God's home? What meaning does the word heavens have for you?

Do i believe satan is in the presence of God? No

 

[jasoncran]

Before I run through the list of things you ask explaining for, I would like to start off with asking you to explain what this scripture means.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This clearly states that there will be people dwelling in heaven during the time that the dragon is cast down to earth in the end times.

Now you continue with the time line of Revelation and read this towards the end...

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now how can people be dwelling in heaven when the dragon got cast down and knows that his time is short if the first resurrection doesn't happen until the end of the dragons short time on earth after he is captured?

Did the Bible contradict itself? Is there anything that could possibly make a connection to oppose a possible contradiction?

I'm going to be chaining things together so please follow what I'm getting at...


What's interesting is Jesus says , ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the WILL of my Father who is in heaven."

Now read this...

Revelation 2:


"26 To the one who is victorious and does my WILL(which means not by his own works) to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Also... "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."


Now... "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"

What we've gathered is that there will be a people who does the lords will, who will rule with an iron scepter, who will judge the world(even angels), and who will have the right to sit with the lord on his throne.

The great multitude is said to be standing before the throne in white robes holding palm branches. So who are these people that have the right to sit with the lord at his throne? The only other group I can find is the 144,000. The ones who I believe are the bride of Christ who were given fine linen, bright and clean to wear, opposed to wearing white robes.

The 144,000 are also mentioned of learning a new song that no on can learn, because they have been redeemed from the earth. They are standing on mount zion(heaven?), could that be relating to this event?

"12Therefore rejoice(singing a new song?), ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them."



Now what I'm getting at is in Revelation 20, after Satan is captured, it mentions the scene of they which were seated on thrones and who had been given authority to judge. Now remember what I connected above. Then there is seen the people who have been slain who had been part of the first resurrection.<br />

So now we see that there is a connection and the Bible isn't contradicting itself

"4) where in the nt does the bible promise no death from satan or man for his peoples(chrisitians)?"
Once again, "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." Not only this scripture, but also Revelations 12 explaining the women wearing a crown with 12 stars, who I believe is symbolizing the Bride of Christ, the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. As I believe they are the ones dwelling in the heavens and rejoicing before the first resurrection occurs. If they are not part of the first resurrection, but are in heaven before it, I can only conclude that they were part of a rapture, redeemed from the earth.


Enoch was translated without seeing death, so this isn't anything new. Also this event in the end times is going to be greater than anything that has previously happened, so saying that this kind of event never took place in the past doesn't mean it won't happen to the finale of the people that God has been waiting for. This will be the end of days, so why would God want to keep them on the earth like he did with Noah and others?

You say, "2) the time frame of seven yrs from the rapture violates no man knoweth the hour", but who is to know when this 7 year period begins? So how is it possible to pinpoint a day or an hour?

As far as the rest that you mentioned, like I said, please explain Revelation 12 for me if it doesn't mean what I mentioned it does. Rather yet, what the Bible clearly says.

Can anyone else give me a different explanation of what Revelation 12 is saying?
If not, then why would you disagree?

sigh, if one is a saint in the tribulation then you do the know the hour he comes. that if you are taught the tribulation. so god will leaven them clueless in where they are in? whom will teach them., the 144k or the angels whom will show them what happened? if its say a 4yr old and that child needs to know about jesus and what happened who will till them.

for the record i am pre wrath/premmillinial. so please answer my questions one by one.

the rapture is the age of when the kingdom comes.

heres a few problem, both paul and jesus state this.

luke 21:36

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

so the trib saints didnt do that? think about what is said before hand.

and also in matthew 24

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

so the idea of being saved before the gathering for the final judgment has just been negated.

if you got left behind then you are done, you wont get saved. so who will teach the gentiles. and btw the 144k are teachers or evangelists just a list of isrealites that are the ruling class in heaven. no mentioning of teaching the bible simply doesnt say on the matter.



luke 21:23

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled

interesting the above verse implies the destruction of jerusalem was for vengeance, whose vengeance? god's or satan? if its gods then the idea of the seven yr thing is nullifilied. as jerusalem did fall in ad 70. and what they do?
reject christ.

 

[jasoncran]

its been taught to me that satan was cast down from heaven when the lord died. and has since roamed the earth.

 

[reba]

God had to turn His back on Jesus why would any think satan is running around in the presence of God?

 

[LastSeven]

Does Satan currently accuse us before God?

Revelation 12:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

This is from Revelation 12 which is describing the scene with the woman and the dragon. Clearly at some point Satan was or is accusing us before God.

The question is, does this hurling down of Satan happen in the future or has it happened in the past? Because that is when he is no longer in the presence of God and when he can no longer accuse us.

The key is the first piece. Satan gets hurled down when the kingdom of God and the authority of Christ begins.

Luke 11:20
But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus says here that the kingdom of God has begun during his time on earth. This could indicate that at this time Satan was cast down, which means he no longer accuses us before God.

On the other hand, 1 Corinthians tells us that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to God the father at the very end, when he has destroyed death. Which means until that time the kingdom belongs to God the son.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26
New International Version (NIV)
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

This does not happen until after the millennium. We know this because Rev 20:14 tells us that death is destroyed after the millennium, and also we know that Christ reigns during the millennium (Rev 20:4), so he can not hand over the kingdom to the father until after the millennium. Which means currently the kingdom belongs to God the son, not God the father.

Revelation 12:10 talks about the time when the kingdom belongs to God the father, because it clearly says "and his Messiah". Therefore, I conclude that currently Satan still accuses us before God.

 

[jasoncran]

when was the man child born? and whom was the man child? if the lord is that child then its all past.

the woman is the nation of isreal as the symbols indicate such.

 

[reba]

The key is the first piece. Satan gets hurled down when the kingdom of God and the authority of Christ begins.

Are you saying Satan was in the presence of God until the birth or ministry of Christ?

If you are i will ask about the serpent in the garden.

 

[ILTL888]

What do you mean by the word heavens?

The blue sky? Our universe? (For lack of better vocabulary) God's home? What meaning does the word heavens have for you?

Do i believe satan is in the presence of God? No

Excuse my wording, I meant to say heaven.

Revelation 12 clearly stats that in the end times the great prince Michael will go to war in HEAVEN with Satan and his angels, but Satan and his angels will lose and be cast down to earth, and they will lose their place in heaven.

Now Daniel 12 states about the end times that Michael will arise and protect his people, connecting to the scriptures in Revelation 12 confirming a time-line of events. This will happen during a time fitting of this description, "There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then." Has this time happened yet?

Now Revelation goes on saying(after Satan and his angels have been cast out of Heaven) that there will be people dwelling and rejoicing in heaven during the end times, but also before the end comes, before the first resurrection.

Like I said, these people are stated to be dwelling in heaven before the first resurrection happens so has a rapture happened yet?

So why wouldn't Satan and his angels still be in heaven?

There's also to point out that after Satan will be cast out of Heaven, that he will be furious because he knows that his time is SHORT.

So it is clear to me from the word of God that Satan and his angels are currently in heaven. To think otherwise would be taking away from the Bible, or adding things to it.

You're not disagreeing with me, but with the word of God.

 

[ILTL888]

when was the man child born? and whom was the man child? if the lord is that child then its all past.

the woman is the nation of isreal as the symbols indicate such.

I've been thinking about this to.

A new thought that I've been thinking is this...

Revelation 12

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an IRON SCEPTER and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on MY THRONE, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Now...

"The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an IRON SCEPTER.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his THRONE. 6"

The woman is obviously a symbol of more than one person from the same whole group that is comprised of the 12 tribes of Israel. Could this scripture, when it explains who the woman gives birth to, really be giving birth to whom the people the woman will be made up of? Could it also be symbolizing that these people will be born again?

As scripture shows, our lord Jesus will not be the only one to rule the nations with an iron scepter, but also them who does his will to the end.

Now I believe the 144,000 are the ones who make up this kingdom of heaven, who are given fine linen to wear and will be coming out down from heaven prepared as a bride when it all ends.

I also believe from the scriptures that the 144,000 will be made up of the male gender. So saying that the woman will give birth to a male child who will rule the nations with an iron scepter doesn't necessarily have to mean it's Jesus.

Like you said, it wouldn't make sense with the time-line.

I know after it says that the child will be snatched up to God and to his thrown, that the women fled into the wilderness for a place prepared for her by God. But Revelation 12 likes to go back to the beginning of this story more than once and layer over it with more details. So I'm not sure if it's beginning over again between them two times.

I'm not saying I'm right on this, just a new perspective that makes it so the Bible isn't contradicting itself with the time-line that it lays out.

I'm willing to discuss this more as it'd be nice to hear other thoughts on Revelation 12.