There will be NO Secret Rapture!

[Sinthesis]

I've been thinking about this to.

A new thought that I've been thinking is this...

Revelation 12

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an IRON SCEPTER and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. 29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on MY THRONE, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€

Now...

"The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an IRON SCEPTER.â€[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his THRONE. 6"

The woman is obviously a symbol of more than one person from the same whole group that is comprised of the 12 tribes of Israel. Could this scripture, when it explains who the woman gives birth to, really be giving birth to whom the people the woman will be made up of? Could it also be symbolizing that these people will be born again?

As scripture shows, our lord Jesus will not be the only one to rule the nations with an iron scepter, but also them who does his will to the end.

Now I believe the 144,000 are the ones who make up this kingdom of heaven, who are given fine linen to wear and will be coming out down from heaven prepared as a bride when it all ends.

I also believe from the scriptures that the 144,000 will be made up of the male gender. So saying that the woman will give birth to a male child who will rule the nations with an iron scepter doesn't necessarily have to mean it's Jesus.

Like you said, it wouldn't make sense with the time-line.

I know after it says that the child will be snatched up to God and to his thrown, that the women fled into the wilderness for a place prepared for her by God. But Revelation 12 likes to go back to the beginning of this story more than once and layer over it with more details. So I'm not sure if it's beginning over again between them two times.

I'm not saying I'm right on this, just a new perspective that makes it so the Bible isn't contradicting itself with the time-line that it lays out.

I'm willing to discuss this more as it'd be nice to hear other thoughts on Revelation 12.

Feel free to start a thread on Rev 12.

 

[ILTL888]

Feel free to start a thread on Rev 12.

I guess I got caught up in it all. I'll be making a thread.

Before I start any threads, this guy believes the first part of Revelation chapter 12 starts off with the story of Israel giving birth to Jesus, but when chapter 12 gets to the part where the women fled to the wilderness for a place prepared for her by god, that it is fast forwarding to the future in the end times.

I'll still have to give it a more thorough study.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk7R9bAVW8Q&NR=1

 

[ILTL888]

sigh, if one is a saint in the tribulation then you do the know the hour he comes. that if you are taught the tribulation. so god will leaven them clueless in where they are in? whom will teach them., the 144k or the angels whom will show them what happened? if its say a 4yr old and that child needs to know about jesus and what happened who will till them.

for the record i am pre wrath/premmillinial. so please answer my questions one by one.

the rapture is the age of when the kingdom comes.

heres a few problem, both paul and jesus state this.

luke 21:36



so the trib saints didnt do that? think about what is said before hand.

and also in matthew 24





so the idea of being saved before the gathering for the final judgment has just been negated.

if you got left behind then you are done, you wont get saved. so who will teach the gentiles. and btw the 144k are teachers or evangelists just a list of isrealites that are the ruling class in heaven. no mentioning of teaching the bible simply doesnt say on the matter.



luke 21:23


interesting the above verse implies the destruction of jerusalem was for vengeance, whose vengeance? god's or satan? if its gods then the idea of the seven yr thing is nullifilied. as jerusalem did fall in ad 70. and what they do?
reject christ.

Before I answer any of them questions, can you please respond to what I've asked of you?

(from me previous post)

"Before I run through the list of things you ask explaining for, I would like to start off with asking you to explain what this scripture means.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This clearly states that there will be people dwelling in heaven during the time that the dragon is cast down to earth in the end times."

Can you explain to me why there won't be people dwelling in heaven before the first resurrection of the righteous in the end-times?

*As a side note concerning what you've mentioned above in this post*

Where in the Bible does it say that the 144,000 will be teaching the Bible to the gentiles throughout the whole tribulation? Where did you get that from the Bible? I do believe they will be teaching the Gentiles, but no where in the Bible does it say throughout the whole tribulation.

Now what I said that you're disputing is said in the Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

name the isrealites that are of the 144k please.

they should be easily found if they are alive at present. and i'm of the seed of isreal btw and only those that have these names cohen. cohn and kohen anc kohn are in fact able to claim a tribe as its been proven that they are the descedents of the kohathites.

and the bible doesnt mentioning any teaching by them at all. the man child can only be christ. my pre trib believing preach this sunday on revalation 12 and said that as such.

so theres two rulers of the whole earth? that sit on the throne of david and rule with an iron fist.

and btw the 144k in general millenalism arent considered to be on the earth in the millienial reign. to my knowledge.

 

[jasoncran]

sigh, all verses after chapter 3 are assumed to be in the future tense correct of johns day.

ok let me ask you this. when those are in heaven and if so then when the did ressurection occur?

the dead in christ remain dead till he comes either accordiing to your postion a rapture or in judgment.

i am unsure when that verse was fulfilled but the part of the man child has to be jesus. as who else fulfills that verse. and if the secret rapture is it then the time of the 1000 yr reign cant be the time of satans wrath as he is bound!

 

[reba]

888

Like I said, these people are stated to be dwelling in heaven before the first resurrection happens so has a rapture happened yet?

So why wouldn't Satan and his angels still be in heaven?

There's also to point out that after Satan will be cast out of Heaven, that he will be furious because he knows that his time is SHORT.

So it is clear to me from the word of God that Satan and his angels are currently in heaven. To think otherwise would be taking away from the Bible, or adding things to it.

You're not disagreeing with me, but with the word of God.

888 believes satan is living in living in the presence of God. What say the rest of you?

 

[Sinthesis]

888




888 believes satan is living in living in the presence of God. What say the rest of you?

Well at one time he was!:o

However, cutting through all this mess in revealing the actual message behind Rev 12 depends to a large part in how you define your terms.

 

[LastSeven]

Are you saying Satan was in the presence of God until the birth or ministry of Christ?

If you are i will ask about the serpent in the garden.

No, no. I'm saying Satan is in the presence of God until Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the Father.

 

[LastSeven]

when was the man child born? and whom was the man child? if the lord is that child then its all past.

the woman is the nation of isreal as the symbols indicate such.

The child is Jesus but that doesn't mean the entire story is past. It only means the part about Jesus is past.

 

[jasoncran]

The child is Jesus but that doesn't mean the entire story is past. It only means the part about Jesus is past.

to whom was the the man child taken up and given rest for times, and times and half.

and also whom does the dragon go after first? isreal?

 

[ILTL888]

name the isrealites that are of the 144k please.

they should be easily found if they are alive at present. and i'm of the seed of isreal btw and only those that have these names cohen. cohn and kohen anc kohn are in fact able to claim a tribe as its been proven that they are the descedents of the kohathites.

What do you mean name them? You want me to travel around the world and try and figure out who are part of this 144,000 and then list you off 144,000 names?

That's great if your a decedent from the tribes of Israel. The Bible tells us that the 144k will be spiritual Israel given unto the Gentiles that Israel so earnestly sought out but lost. The new Testament explains that he wasn't one that is a Jew outwardly, but is a Jew inwardly, circumcised of the heart. So this is clear as day that the 144k doesn't have to be made up of the people who are a decedent from the actual tribes of Israel.

and the bible doesnt mentioning any teaching by them at all. the man child can only be christ. my pre trib believing preach this sunday on revalation 12 and said that as such.

If the Bible doesn't mention any of them teaching, then why did you use that as your opposing argument?

I'm not disagreeing that the man child is Christ. I posted up a different thought and said I wasn't sure. Just thought it was interesting. I posted a link to youtube of a man explaining revelations who believes the man child is Christ and that when it talks about the woman fleeing into the wilderness that it is fast-forwarding to the future end times.

so theres two rulers of the whole earth? that sit on the throne of david and rule with an iron fist.

My other thought that I brought up(that I said I'm not sure on!) was talking about the explanation of the man child was revealing who the woman is made up of. Not that there is only one of them. You need to read more carefully.

In a previous post you say, "so the idea of being saved before the gathering for the final judgment has just been negated."

Unfortunately you've yet to answer my question.

"Can you explain to me why there won't be people dwelling in heaven before the first resurrection of the righteous in the end-times?"

Why don't you believe there will be people dwelling in heaven(aside from the 24 elders) before the end comes?

 

[ILTL888]

888




888 believes satan is living in living in the presence of God. What say the rest of you?

I myself don't believe it, I believe in the word of God, and that's what it says.

 

[reba]

888 believes satan is living in living in the presence of God. What say the rest of you?

I myself don't believe it, I believe in the word of God, and that's what it says.

Where do the Scriptures say satan in living in the presence of God?

 

[ILTL888]

888 believes satan is living in living in the presence of God. What say the rest of you?




Where do the Scriptures say satan in living in the presence of God?

From the beginning, what I said is Satan is still in Heaven. If that means he is in the presence of God, then so be it.

I've already posted the scriptures that say that Satan still has access to Heaven, more than once I believe.

Watch this video. You can watch the whole thing, or start it at 6 minutes in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk7R9bAVW8Q&NR=1

This guy does a good job with explaining things concerning Satan still being in Heaven.

I'm done disputing this with you. You're arguing against the word of God and you cannot win.

 

[reba]

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
the He here is Jesus.

 

[reba]

Ok so you do not have a a verse or passage that says satan lives in the presence of God.

 

[ILTL888]

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
the He here is Jesus.

"I beheld Satan ... - "Satan" here denotes evidently the prince of the devils who had been cast out by the seventy disciples, for the discourse was respecting their power over evil spirits. "Lightning" is an image of "rapidity" or "quickness." I saw Satan fall "quickly" or rapidly - as quick as lightning. The phrase "from heaven" is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw "Satan" fall "from heaven," but that he fell as quick as lightning from heaven or from the clouds. The whole expression then may mean, "I saw at your command devils immediately depart, as quick as the flash of lightning. I gave you this power - I saw it put forth - and I give also now, in addition to this, the power to tread on serpents," etc. "

 

[ILTL888]

Ok so you do not have a a verse or passage that says satan lives in the presence of God.

I'll post this one more time for the people that love the truth.

"Now to look at Revelations 12, which Jesus gave to show the things what must soon take place in the end times...

"7And there was war in HEAVEN: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. "

Let me first point this out to keep a time frame in line. Look at the first passage I posted in Revelations 12, now compare it Daniel chapter 12.

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. "

Now this is speaking of the end time during the Great Tribulation that has yet to happen. So you can see the Dragon/Satan is still in heaven and soon in the future will be doing battle against Michael and his angels.

So you see, "8And prevailed not; neither was their place found ANY MORE in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is speaking of an event that has yet to come!"

 

[reba]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Joh 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

 

[reba]

I am not disputing the words in the verse. I dispute your use of them. Your understanding. Rev 12 7 tells us there WAS past tense was in Heaven

God had to turn His back on Jesus because of our sin. How can He allow the presence of all evil in His heaven?

This to me is what happens when folks believe they have found a KEY to understanding The Revelation.

I will not pester you any longer. Must put my mod hat back on....