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There will be NO Secret Rapture!

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

Now he can only ascend to heaven if he was cast out. So this doesn't say he was permanently cast out from heaven like it does in Revelation 12. A time yet to happen.

But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit.

When does this happen?

Revelation 20:

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless PIT

So you see this is a time yet to come.



Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

This is when Jesus is crucified and has victory over Satan and death.

You see Satan had dominion over the world since temping Eve in the Garden. It was up until Christ and his crucifixion that the prince of the world would be cast out. It doesn't say now the prince of Heaven shall be cast out.

As you can see in Job, Satan roams the earth while having access to heaven and stand before God reporting things.
 
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revalation 20 is at the end of the tribulation then, so that would have to be after the ressurection. a rapture is also a ressurection, when one dies theres no heavean for you till such "rapture" occurs.


read all the verses on when it says the dead in christ shall rise first and we are that alive shall meet in him in the clouds.has that happened? no so either its a future event or its in the past as the saints(jews) did minister and were taken up.

another thing is that the demons had to be fallen ere that prophecy as they are on the earth at present and save the ones that were judged in the flood are still working to decieve men.

and god's will isnt done in heaven?
 
888 its taught that 144k are evangelists thats why and you teach here that pre-trib doctrine. and uh theres a ton of men and women in heaven who are saints but you missed the parts whom warred with satan. not men but angels.
revalation 12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven

we arent angels in the ressurection as angels are a higher being then men. we have a spirit and that will be in heaven but the bible never says were become angels in heaven.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


so when christ came he didnt preach the repent for the kingdom of god is nigh? salvation isnt here yet? we arent saved sorry this is a pasted tense vision in the first part as it shows us that what happened in heaven when ere christ came and also what he did on the cross.

sigh, revalation isnt about some mystical future events (all of it) but about revealing what christ is and whom he is. this is but another vision of such and what he did do for us. so you dont believe GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU THEN HE IS THAT IS THE IN THE WORLD.

AND THAT the devil is defeated?

even my pastor who is hard core pre-trib says that the devil was and is defeated and preached that from this very verse this past sunday
 
Whoever started this thread you are correct - there will be no secret rapture.

There are Angels at the four corners of the Earth waiting for the command to thrust in the sickle.

When Christ returns he will descend upon the mount of Olives, as he is descending (mind you that everyone will see his arrival) the dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet him in the air, then he will fulfill the Words of Enoch, "the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgement". The Angles of the Lord will actually guide the saints towards Israel in the Air and meet Christ above Jerusalem! This will be seeing by many - it will not be secret. This will occur on the Feast of Trumpets at the Heavenly Father's choosing.

While Apostle Paul said that we would be with him forevermore that is in the air with the Lord, the reader must understand that this is an open ended statement, simply put, Paul was not given the full revelation, he was able to see the saints meeting up with Christ but that's about it. Apostle John was given the revelation of what comes after Paul's vision. Check out a cool website www.onefoldoneshepherd.com for some interesting perspective on this.
 
The Catholic church introduced the secret "rapture" or "left behind" theory so people won't bother to read Revelation, where the beast and mark of the beast is revealed. They are led to believe they won't be around when the prophecies of Revelation occur, so why bother reading it? Know what I mean?

The foundation of the "rapture" or "left behind" theory was laid over 400 years ago upon the specific orders of the Catholic Church! And this doctrine is down right dangerous and has NO valid Biblical support!

The "Secret Rapture or left behind" teaching is a down right and dangerous doctrinal distortion, because it could delude the majority of professed Christians into being lost. The "left behind" theory is a major deception that many Christians believe to be true!

There is not the slightest hint that this final separation of the saved and lost will be done in any secretive manner. Yet, this connotation has been applied by those who are desperately trying to find inspired support for an empty tradition. The unscriptural two-phase coming has been repeated so often and so persistently that millions believe it must be true.

The amazing thing is how people have taken such obvious verses and twisted them out of context to support a doctrine which does not even appear in the Bible.

Others, who profess to have studied its pages, contend that the book is of little practical value to the committed Christian expecting to be raptured to Heaven. Why? Because most of the events it foretells, they think, are going to occur after the main body of the church has been caught away to Heaven. In other words, the book need not concern true believers because they will not be on earth when the events it predicts come true.

His second coming will be visible to both the righteous and the wicked (1 Corinthians 1:7; Hebrews 9:28; Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27). It will be audible (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Matthew 24:31; Psalms 50:3). It will be personal (Acts 1:11); bodily (John 14:1-3). It will be glorious (Matthew 24:30; 25:31; Luke 21:27; Mark 13:26). It will occur before the thousand-year millennium, and it is imminent (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 29:6; Matthew 24:36-39, 44).

The Bible plainly says that Christ's return will be anything but quiet or secret: "Our God shall come and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him" (Psalms 50:3).

No wonder Jesus warned: "Take heed that no man deceive you."

Paul adds to the information about the final fate of those who are not ready for Christ's coming: "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints."

At the very same time that the righteous are glorified, the rejecters of His grace will be slain by the brightness of His presence.

This interesting revelation brings us face to face with the massive deception which has misled millions of Christians. Obviously, there will be nothing secret about the rapture of the saints, and the so-called "secret rapture or left behind" is only a figment of the imagination.

There is absolutely no scriptural indication that the return of Christ takes place in two phases. The popular concept that Jesus comes secretly seven years before the end of the world to snatch away the saved Christians has no Bible support whatsoever. The wicked do not continue living in the earth for seven years after the mythical rapture of the righteous. They are slain, Paul says, "When he (Jesus) shall come to be glorified in his saints."

Matthew 24:42-44: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

There it is! So simple that a child can understand it. It will be unexpected. The advent will take the world by surprise. His coming will burst upon this earth when people least expect it. They will be just as unprepared for it as they would for a midnight thief. These words do not convey the least idea that our Lord will come sneaking around like some common criminal. He was just using a striking illustration of the unexpectedness of His return. Jesus reinforced the point He was making in verse 50, "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of."

The amazing thing is how people have taken such obvious verses and twisted them out of context to support a doctrine which does not even appear in the Bible. The same thing has been done with the illustration of two woman grinding together. Jesus did say, "The one shall be taken and the other left," but what does the context tell us about the meaning of those words? Is there any indication whatsoever that Jesus was teaching a secret rapture of the saints?

The words in question are found in Luke 17:24-27, but let's read the verses before and after in order to get the full picture. Beginning in verse 26 Jesus likened His coming to the days of Noah: "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

The similarity is beyond question. Before the flood some were taken and some were left. The ones taken were taken into the ark and saved. The ones who were left were all destroyed by the raging water.

Christ continued His discourse with another illustration. "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." Verses 28-30.

Again, the parallel is obvious. Some were taken out of the city to safety and some were left. What happened to those who were left? They were all destroyed by the fire.

Now we come to verses 34-36: "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Please keep the continuity of Christ's previous illustration in mind as you consider these words. In every case there had been a separation of the good from the bad, and then the wicked were slain. If the context teaches us anything at all, we must conclude that the one who is left will be left dead, just as it was in Noah and Lot's days. And when we read the next verse, there can be no doubt that this is exactly what Jesus was saying. "And they answered and said unto him, Where Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Verse 37.

After Jesus said one would be taken and the other left, the disciples asked where they would be left. His answer clearly reveals that all who were left would be dead. Their bodies would be food for the eagles to devour. This is in perfect harmony with what the rest of the Bible says on the subject.
I can't believe this op.. The main thing that sticks out. You say the Pre Trib is a new teaching, what 400 years old only.... well lets see. To keep this post short I will list earlier teaching in the next post..
 
. Epistle of Barnabas, AD 100
Irenaeus, in AgainstHeresies 1st Century
Hippolytus, a disciple of Irenaeus 2nd Century
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho

Ephraem, the Syrian 4th Century.

Ephraem of Nisibis 306 – 373 AD wrote:
"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior tothe tribulation
That is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is
To overwhelm the world because of our sins"
(on the last times, the antichrist and the end of the world)

Peter Jurieu, The approaching Deliverance of theChurch, (1687)
Philip Doddridge. Commentary on the New testament, (1738)

Dr. John Gill, Commentary on the New Testament, (1748)
James Macknight, Commentary on the ApostolicalEpistles, (1763)

Thomas Scott, Commentary on the Holy Bible, (1792)

The Pre Trib was popularized by these follow writers..
Emanuel Lacunza (BenEzra). (1812)
Edward Irving, (1816)

John N Darby, (1830)

Margaret McDonald, (1830)

Now I'm sure you will say this is all made up. But you can check it out for youself.
Thanks to Chuck Missler. all quotes are form his research..
Question to the OP.. where is your proof.. :study:study:study:study

When the Church first started out it looks as if teaching Pre trib was fact. But then came along the "dark ages" where the RCC took over the teaching of the bible. For centuries the church told you what to believe and how to obtain salvation.. "thur the Church" then when the bible again fell into the hands of "common folks" they started studying the scriptures, well what turns back up .... Pre Tribulation Rapture.. so as proof listed' Pre has been around as long as the Church...
 
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John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
From the OP.
The words in question are found in Luke 17:24-27, but let's read the verses
before and after in order to get the full picture. Beginning in verse 26 Jesus
likened His coming to the days of Noah: "And as it was in the days of Noe, so
shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they
married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into
the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."
Lets talk just a little about this "Days Of Noah' now I'm not goin to say I have it all figured out.
1st, you say every thing will be happy, normal, They eat, drink and are getting married or another way of saying it.. Life is Good. But lets look at life right before Jesus comes back to the earth at the end of days. The sun has gone dark, all vegetation is gone, the oceans and rivers are blood "no water" 3 quarters of mankind has been killed. The Mark of the Beast is in effect. Satan is having a field day on earth.. I could go on but I think the picture here is anything but Normal. Oh and lets not forget the War of Armageddon. Where Jesus has to come back before man can blow himself to ashes..
 
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Yes, the last day of the church age. The church age had a beginning, and it will have an end. This is end is at the rapture of the Church. Then comes Tribulation and half way thur the Great Tribulation..
What is the tribulation about, it is God turning back to deal with Israel. The Jew. Yes of course people will come to Christ during this time and most likely will pay with their lives.
 
Yes, the last day of the church age.
Where does Jesus say anythng about 'church age' ?
The church age had a beginning, and it will have an end.
And since you're following DF you should know that Jesus never spoke a single word in the fabled 'church age' that began at Pentecost.
This is end is at the rapture of the Church. Then comes Tribulation and half way thur the Great Tribulation..
What is the tribulation about, it is God turning back to deal with Israel. The Jew. Yes of course people will come to Christ during this time and most likely will pay with their lives.
Its dangerous to add to the Scripture, especially when that involves altering direct quotes of Jesus Christ.

And I cant wait for your explanation of why and how Martha knows the resurrection is at the last day of the church age, since she speaks to the Lord during the Dispensation of Law and we all know the 'church age' was neither foreseen nor spoken of by the prophets.
 
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From the OP.
Lets talk just a little about this "Days Of Noah' now I'm not goin to say I have it all figured out.
1st, you say every thing will be happy, normal, They eat, drink and are getting married or another way of saying it.. Life is Good. But lets look at life right before Jesus comes back to the earth at the end of days. The sun has gone dark, all vegetation is gone, the oceans and rivers are blood "no water" 3 quarters of mankind has been killed. The Mark of the Beast is in effect. Satan is having a field day on earth.. I could go on but I think the picture here is anything but Normal. Oh and lets not forget the War of Armageddon. Where Jesus has to come back before man can blow himself to ashes..


war of armageddon? uh no that is a battle field that has three names to it! jezreal,himnon and har meggido.

what is that battle for? to invade jerusalem as that is the only way you can easily get troops to that city!
 
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


When we look for THEE WAR are we looking for war that man would recognize or are we to look for the war of the author of the Scripture?
 
Some of the NT passages relate to the Lord Jesus coming in power and glory; others relate to His coming for the church: 1 Thess. 4. would be in this category. For me, it's undeniable that there are these differences in context.
 
Some of the NT passages relate to the Lord Jesus coming in power and glory; others relate to His coming for the church: 1 Thess. 4. would be in this category. For me, it's undeniable that there are these differences in context.
Hmmm so how many Second Advents can there be?

How many resurrections?
 
There is to be a rapture, before the second coming. Scripture is quite clear and simple about this.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Corinthians 15 v 52.


This speaks of the rapture, a separate event and a precursor to the second coming:

"When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory." - Colossians 3 v 4.

We must be taken up before He is manifested, or how else are we to be appear with Him?

The rapture is secret, the sounding of the trumpet will be for the benefit of believers only, it isn't a spectacle which the world at large will be privy to. The second coming is the grand appearance of Christ in all His glory, with us.

I'm fully in agreement with J.N. Darby on this.
 
There is to be a rapture, before the second coming. Scripture is quite clear and simple about this.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Corinthians 15 v 52.


This speaks of the rapture, a separate event and a precursor to the second coming:

"When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory." - Colossians 3 v 4.

We must be taken up before He is manifested, or how else are we to be appear with Him?
/
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The rapture is secret, the sounding of the trumpet will be for the benefit of believers only,
That i s utterly ridiculous
it isn't a spectacle which the world at large will be privy to. The second coming is the grand appearance of Christ in all His glory, with us.
I take you also follow Darby in the addition of resurrections as needed?
I'm fully in agreement with J.N. Darby on this.
Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of the resurrection of the righteous and the damned at the last day?
 
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Quite so, 1 John 3 v 2 speaks of the rapture, when we will see the Lord as He is, when we "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4 v 17).

That i s utterly ridiculous

I don't see that it is... the rapture is not the time in which the glory of the Lord will be revealed to the world. It is the time when only those who are to be with Him in eternity will see His glory. The glory of the Lord will be revealed to the world at a later time, that time will be at the Appearing. There are no 'spoilers', no 'sneak previews'.

The Rapture is when Christ comes for His people. The Appearing is when Christ comes with His people.

I take you also follow Darby in the addition of resurrections as needed?

The only resurrection I'm aware of is the one spoke on in 1 Thessalonians 4, the raising of the dead in Christ.

If you're referring to the separate resurrection of dead in Christ and the dead in sin, I hold that as well: that the dead in Christ will be raised at the rapture, and the dead in sin will be raised on the Day of Judgement. The two resurrections spoken of in John 5 v 29 aren't simultaneous.

Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of the resurrection of the righteous and the damned at the last day?

Because the last day is the closing of the age, when these events will occur, the rapture, the appearing, and so forth.
 
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I don’t believe in the Rapture theory as many people havetold it to me. Most accounts from what Ihave read speak of 1 Thes 4, and they say that Jesus was going to come in thesky with an archangel. At this timegraves will open and dead saints would meet Jesus in the sky. Then, the living saints would also join them. The problem with that is Thess 4 says inverses 13 and 14 “those which are asleep†would come with him. The chapter also says the “dead in Christâ€will rise first. That doesn’t mean thesaints which have gone “asleepâ€. Col2:20 and 3:3 says we are dead in Christ, so the dead in Christ would be theliving saints as well.



I Thes 4 also says we would meet in a “cloudâ€, thus thebelief that we will meet Jesus in the sky (air). Heb 12:1 says we are encompasses in a cloudof witnesses, which would explain 1 Thes 4:17 as to meeting in the clouds.



It is my conclusion then, that anything 1 Thes 4 is speakingof is a spiritual happening that is taking place right now. We are being caught up unto God every day byhearing the Word preached and living by faith. Could there be some form of literal “transfiguration� Sure, and I believe it may happen for somepeople. But it isn’t what 1 Thes 4 istalking about.



There were some other interesting side topics aboutRevelations 12 going on. Someone saidthat they were going to start a new thread. Has that happened?
 
Quite so, 1 John 3 v 2 speaks of the rapture, when we will see the Lord as He is, when we "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4 v 17).



I don't see that it is... the rapture is not the time in which the glory of the Lord will be revealed to the world. It is the time when only those who are to be with Him in eternity will see His glory. The glory of the Lord will be revealed to the world at a later time, that time will be at the Appearing. There are no 'spoilers', no 'sneak previews'.

The Rapture is when Christ comes for His people. The Appearing is when Christ comes with His people.



The only resurrection I'm aware of is the one spoke on in 1 Thessalonians 4, the raising of the dead in Christ.

If you're referring to the separate resurrection of dead in Christ and the dead in sin, I hold that as well: that the dead in Christ will be raised at the rapture, and the dead in sin will be raised on the Day of Judgement. The two resurrections spoken of in John 5 v 29 aren't simultaneous.
Perhaps you will quote Jesus in support ?

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Where do you insert how ever much space you need and why are you allowed to alter what Jesus said ?





And what of those who pass on between the rapture and the appearing ?
Because the last day is the closing of the age, when these events will occur, the rapture, the appearing, and so forth.
The last day of the church age? If you're following Darby then you already know Jesus did not live in the church age, did not speak in the church age and none of the prophets foresaw the church age, so how did Martha know what would happen at the end of and era unknown to the prophets and therefor nowhere to be found in the Scriptures?

Who are you to qualify our Lord's own statements? Where does Jesus add any of what you posted?

Can you quote Jesus in support of your rapture theory?
 
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