These kinds of Christians are candidates for deception by Derek Prince

[Dorothy Mae]

I listened to this message yesterday and it so much reminded me of some posters here, I thought I would let others know of this teaching. It is not mine but I do believe it.. Here is a summary:

There are christians who are open to being deceived into embracing the occult when they think they are embracing the kingdom of God. He has a list.

He is in general addressing Christians who desire a word from the Lord especially from someone else which he finds to be quite dangerous. So if they get one, here are the ones likely to be deceived.

1. Christians who rely on a subjective impression. They felt really good when receiving this message. This I also see when someone tells of a great spiritual experienced they had and how it made them feel loved, etc. and so it must have been from God. Actually, those in Kundalini Hinduism will tell of spiritual experiences where they felt deeply loved and it was totally of the Enemy.

2. Christians who believe if certain people said something, it must be true. No human is infallible.

3. Those who accept supernatural signs as a guarantee of truth. Jesus said "false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders."

4. Those who through personal ambitions are susceptible to flatters. This I have seen in people being told by "prophets" that they great and God is going to do xyz through them. "The one who flatters with his mouth spreads a net for his feet."

5. Those who are unwilling to face the possibility of suffering or persecution. Sooner or later they are bound to be deceived. "Because Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same mind." (Anyone who only offers good and blessings, is a false prophet.)

6. Last and most important to me, is people who are ignorant of scripture. This I see more often here in those who describe their wonderful spiritual experiences but have no knowledge whatsoever of scripture and cannot compare what they experienced to what men of God in the Bible experienced. I always compare these kinds of experiences to biblical ones. The other obvious indication of the source of these experiences is the character of the person afterwards. Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy. The best saying that sums this up is "experience is the mother of delusion at times."

 

[Christ_empowered]

I never experienced a lot of that growing up. Ran into some of it at Pentecostal churches. Odd thing.,,I had been blessed with enough discernment even back then to sense trouble at one church. Lady speaking in tongues young pastor translated. Thing is…

ThT pastor and his church went downhill fast. I think even I. Charismatic circles things can get too far out there. I thank God for the bit of discernment and because I was just visiting anyway.

Thanks

 

[jaybo]

I listened to this message yesterday and it so much reminded me of some posters here, I thought I would let others know of this teaching. It is not mine but I do believe it.. Here is a summary:

There are christians who are open to being deceived into embracing the occult when they think they are embracing the kingdom of God. He has a list.

He is in general addressing Christians who desire a word from the Lord especially from someone else which he finds to be quite dangerous. So if they get one, here are the ones likely to be deceived.

1. Christians who rely on a subjective impression. They felt really good when receiving this message. This I also see when someone tells of a great spiritual experienced they had and how it made them feel loved, etc. and so it must have been from God. Actually, those in Kundalini Hinduism will tell of spiritual experiences where they felt deeply loved and it was totally of the Enemy.

2. Christians who believe if certain people said something, it must be true. No human is infallible.

3. Those who accept supernatural signs as a guarantee of truth. Jesus said "false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders."

4. Those who through personal ambitions are susceptible to flatters. This I have seen in people being told by "prophets" that they great and God is going to do xyz through them. "The one who flatters with his mouth spreads a net for his feet."

5. Those who are unwilling to face the possibility of suffering or persecution. Sooner or later they are bound to be deceived. "Because Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same mind." (Anyone who only offers good and blessings, is a false prophet.)

6. Last and most important to me, is people who are ignorant of scripture. This I see more often here in those who describe their wonderful spiritual experiences but have no knowledge whatsoever of scripture and cannot compare what they experienced to what men of God in the Bible experienced. I always compare these kinds of experiences to biblical ones. The other obvious indication of the source of these experiences is the character of the person afterwards. Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy. The best saying that sums this up is "experience is the mother of delusion at times."

Dorothy, I feel sorry for you, since you are obvious trapped in rigid legalism and the judgement of others. "Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy" is an excellent example of your judgmental attitude. Try substituting "other believers" for "doubters" in the above and you are describing yourself.

There are Christians who experience God's actions in their lives differently than you do, but that does not make their experience invalid. Stop condemning other believers!

 

[tim-from-pa]

I listened to this message yesterday and it so much reminded me of some posters here, I thought I would let others know of this teaching. It is not mine but I do believe it.. Here is a summary:

There are christians who are open to being deceived into embracing the occult when they think they are embracing the kingdom of God. He has a list.

He is in general addressing Christians who desire a word from the Lord especially from someone else which he finds to be quite dangerous. So if they get one, here are the ones likely to be deceived.

1. Christians who rely on a subjective impression. They felt really good when receiving this message. This I also see when someone tells of a great spiritual experienced they had and how it made them feel loved, etc. and so it must have been from God. Actually, those in Kundalini Hinduism will tell of spiritual experiences where they felt deeply loved and it was totally of the Enemy.

2. Christians who believe if certain people said something, it must be true. No human is infallible.

3. Those who accept supernatural signs as a guarantee of truth. Jesus said "false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders."

4. Those who through personal ambitions are susceptible to flatters. This I have seen in people being told by "prophets" that they great and God is going to do xyz through them. "The one who flatters with his mouth spreads a net for his feet."

5. Those who are unwilling to face the possibility of suffering or persecution. Sooner or later they are bound to be deceived. "Because Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same mind." (Anyone who only offers good and blessings, is a false prophet.)

6. Last and most important to me, is people who are ignorant of scripture. This I see more often here in those who describe their wonderful spiritual experiences but have no knowledge whatsoever of scripture and cannot compare what they experienced to what men of God in the Bible experienced. I always compare these kinds of experiences to biblical ones. The other obvious indication of the source of these experiences is the character of the person afterwards. Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy. The best saying that sums this up is "experience is the mother of delusion at times."

This is an excellent list of things to be on guard for. I think many if not most would succumb to #4 because everyone wants to feel useful, they want to please the Lord and yet we all have a bit of vanity. For that reason, the (so-called) prophetic word must align with scripture and that goes for "inner voices, feelings" or whatever.

As for #6, there is no excuse for any so-called Christian to be ignorant of the Bible in this technological age. There's online Bibles all over the place and apps that one can download if one is so inclined to sticking their noses in a screen somewhere (at least read the Bible if one needs to be on their device). Not to mention we have more printed Bibles than ever where it reminds me of the verse where the Knowledge of the Lord covers the earth (Isaiah 11:9). It's worth more to me than gold or silver and I've hit a jackpot here! LOL

However, for the most part #6 does not plague people of Christian forums. I figure they would not be here talking about the things they do unless they were at least somewhat Biblically versed. We may disagree on some things, but that is a healthy part of growing so in that respect I am proud of all my brothers and sisters on this forum and other Christian forums. Only a very small percentage of professing Christians belong to or participate on a regular basis on a Christian forum somewhere, so we must give them all credit for wanting to do right. The mainline Christian may be a CHINO (c.f a Republican called a RINO). LOL

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think ….

One problem I have with some charismatic groups is the retreat from reason and thinking into fantasy and feelings.

 

[Edward]

Dorothy, I feel sorry for you, since you are obvious trapped in rigid legalism and the judgement of others. "Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy" is an excellent example of your judgmental attitude. Try substituting "other believers" for "doubters" in the above and you are describing yourself.

There are Christians who experience God's actions in their lives differently than you do, but that does not make their experience invalid. Stop condemning other believers!

The man speaks truth.

Ask 1000 people how God speaks to them and you'll find out that 999 of them are wrong and Dorothy, nevermind.

Seriously, you would get 1000 different answers. God does work in mysterious ways. The thing is...when Jesus walks into the room, there is no mistaking Him. ATthe rapture I wont have a need to question Jesus and to test Him.

I've never seen the Lord manifest to me yet. But He did walk into my room and...it was so powerful. Like the room was electrified. I immediatly sensed His presence and I knew in my heart, God is here. And He spoke audibly to me and told me that a certain Brother needs help and prayed for right away.

The weirdest part was I recognized His voice. It sounded like Jesus. (But I have no recollection of ever hearing Him before). But I knew it was Him. My sheep know my voice so this scripture is absolutely true. Because I did know that voice.

I didn't recognize the Angel who came to my garage sale to be an Angel. But I did Jesus. Just the sound of His voice.
(That's what makes me think that we were in Heaven with Jesus before being born here and agreed to be born here, perhaps we even picked put our parents? but that's another thread I think. How else could I recognnize His voice? Because I've heard it before. And when He came in and spoke, it was recognized by me and went Ding! I know who that is! It may indeed sound quite the Twilight Zone, but is what happened.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy, I feel sorry for you, since you are obvious trapped in rigid legalism and the judgement of others. "Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy" is an excellent example of your judgmental attitude. Try substituting "other believers" for "doubters" in the above and you are describing yourself.

Take heart, you understand nothing at all about me. Likely I am fairly different than you and unlike others you’ve known. But sorrow no more, none of your description of me is true so you can be at peace.

There are Christians who experience God's actions in their lives differently than you do, but that does not make their experience invalid. Stop condemning other believers!

There are Christians who are experiencing false signs and wonders as they are very different than experienced in the Bible and they don’t want to test their experience. Some match Hinduism exactly.

 

[D-D-W]

I think ….

One problem I have with some charismatic groups is the retreat from reason and thinking into fantasy and feelings.

Indeed. That tendency was what Dr. Prince (of blessed memory) fought against the last several decades of his life. (late 1960s onward) I heard him teach on this back in the late 1970s and early 80s.

 

[Tenchi]

He is in general addressing Christians who desire a word from the Lord especially from someone else which he finds to be quite dangerous. So if they get one, here are the ones likely to be deceived.

Is Derek Prince not giving a "word from the Lord" when he sets out to teach folks about spiritual truth which necessarily comes from the Lord? It seems so to me... But if he is, then in light of what you've stated here, he's doing something that is quite "dangerous" for other believers, isn't he?

1. Christians who rely on a subjective impression. They felt really good when receiving this message. This I also see when someone tells of a great spiritual experienced they had and how it made them feel loved, etc. and so it must have been from God. Actually, those in Kundalini Hinduism will tell of spiritual experiences where they felt deeply loved and it was totally of the Enemy.

Yup. Too often these days, Christian want to put their "spiritual experience" on par with God's word and say that some physical sensation, or powerful emotion, or superstitious thought in their head, was God. If a believer can properly and thoroughly ground their experience of God in His word, fantastic! But more often than not, "spiritual experiences" are determined to be so simply because the one having the experience says it was such an experience. No such rationale would be accepted from, say, an atheist arguing that God doesn't exist. The atheist couldn't just declare, "There is no God because I feel that He doesn't exist." We'd laugh at such a rationale. We recognize, too, that it is the insane man who thinks because he feels he is a woman, that he actually is one. No amount of surgery, or hormone therapy, or change of wardrobe will make a man capable of pregnancy, or menstruation, or menopause. In the same way, it is the insane woman who says because she feels perfectly equal to men that she can get in the boxing ring, or swimming pool, or race track with a man and contend on an equal footing physically with him. As we've seen recently, doing so has been disastrous for such women. But this "I feel it therefore it is true" thinking is, essentially, what many believers do when they say things like, "I have sensations and they are (of) God" and offer no further objective grounding for their claim.

2. Christians who believe if certain people said something, it must be true. No human is infallible.

Does that include Derek Prince? Or is he exempt from his own rule, here?

3. Those who accept supernatural signs as a guarantee of truth. Jesus said "false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders."

It was on the basis of such signs that the OT prophets and apostles of the Early Church established their spiritual authority. But not exclusively. Having now the Bible, I take Paul's words to Timothy seriously:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Anyone proposing to tell me God's truth had better be doing so in accord with His word. If they aren't, I have no interest in their "truth."

4. Those who through personal ambitions are susceptible to flatters. This I have seen in people being told by "prophets" that they great and God is going to do xyz through them. "The one who flatters with his mouth spreads a net for his feet."

Flattery is a very dangerous thing: It doesn't often come across as flattery but as encouragement and supportiveness, sliding into a person's heart unresisted, as a result, and subtly inflaming their ego and vanity. It's this sort of thing that captures the "novice" to the faith, especially, who has not yet fully realized what Jesus meant when he said, "for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

5. Those who are unwilling to face the possibility of suffering or persecution. Sooner or later they are bound to be deceived. "Because Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same mind." (Anyone who only offers good and blessings, is a false prophet.)

Yup.

6. Last and most important to me, is people who are ignorant of scripture. This I see more often here in those who describe their wonderful spiritual experiences but have no knowledge whatsoever of scripture and cannot compare what they experienced to what men of God in the Bible experienced.

??? Have you encountered a burning bush like Moses? Have you gone toe-to-toe with the mad prophets of Baal in a contest of spiritual power? Have you been struck down in a roadway by Christ and blinded? Have you been caught away by the Spirit to meet with a person struggling to understand the Gospel? God's word doesn't ever indicate that my experiences as His child must parallel closely - or at all - the experiences of those in Scripture. The Bible does tell me, though, what the common spiritual experience will be of those indwelt by the Holy Spirit: conviction (John 16:8), strength (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13), illumination (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16), comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3-5), transformation (Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:29).

Those who vigorously defend their vision/experience with insulting attacks on doubters show that the experience was not of the Holy Spirit because what comes out of them afterwards is not at all holy. The best saying that sums this up is "experience is the mother of delusion at times."

I don't know that I'd say that experience is the "mother of delusion," but that a certain kind of thinking about experience, a certain sort of reasoning about it, can lead to delusion. See above.

 

[D-D-W]

I never experienced a lot of that growing up. Ran into some of it at Pentecostal churches. Odd thing.,,I had been blessed with enough discernment even back then to sense trouble at one church. Lady speaking in tongues young pastor translated. Thing is…

ThT pastor and his church went downhill fast. I think even I. Charismatic circles things can get too far out there. I thank God for the bit of discernment and because I was just visiting anyway.

Thanks

Rabbi Dan Juster wrote a book "Dynamics of Spiritual Deception" about his experience with just such a group. It was when he was in seminary circa 1970 at Wheaton near Chicago, and he was attending a small pentecostal church that seriously went off the deep end. It is a very interesting read.

Dynamics of Spiritual Deception: Juster Th.D, Daniel C.: 9781512722420: Amazon.com: Books

Dynamics of Spiritual Deception [Juster Th.D, Daniel C.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Dynamics of Spiritual Deception

www.amazon.com

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is Derek Prince not giving a "word from the Lord" when he sets out to teach folks about spiritual truth which necessarily comes from the Lord?

No, he is teaching. A "word from the Lord" is in the area of prophesy where the speaker is telling things they could not know in the natural.

It seems so to me... But if he is, then in light of what you've stated here, he's doing something that is quite "dangerous" for other believers, isn't he?

As you can see, he is not. Not at all. He appeals to reason and scripture.

Yup. Too often these days, Christian want to put their "spiritual experience" on par with God's word and say that some physical sensation, or powerful emotion, or superstitious thought in their head, was God. If a believer can properly and thoroughly ground their experience of God in His word, fantastic! But more often than not, "spiritual experiences" are determined to be so simply because the one having the experience says it was such an experience. No such rationale would be accepted from, say, an atheist arguing that God doesn't exist. The atheist couldn't just declare, "There is no God because I feel that He doesn't exist." We'd laugh at such a rationale. We recognize, too, that it is the insane man who thinks because he feels he is a woman, that he actually is one. No amount of surgery, or hormone therapy, or change of wardrobe will make a man capable of pregnancy, or menstruation, or menopause. In the same way, it is the insane woman who says because she feels perfectly equal to men that she can get in the boxing ring, or swimming pool, or race track with a man and contend on an equal footing physically with him. As we've seen recently, doing so has been disastrous for such women. But this "I feel it therefore it is true" thinking is, essentially, what many believers do when they say things like, "I have sensations and they are (of) God" and offer no further objective grounding for their claim.

Yes, I agree.

Does that include Derek Prince? Or is he exempt from his own rule, here?

No, he says plainly that he is fallible. He asks people to think.

It was on the basis of such signs that the OT prophets and apostles of the Early Church established their spiritual authority. But not exclusively. Having now the Bible, I take Paul's words to Timothy seriously:

OT prophets did not establish their authority by miracles by and large. The OT itself says that is a prophet says XYZ will happen and it does and later gives false teaching, that is a false prophet. It was determined by the teaching, not the signs.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Anyone proposing to tell me God's truth had better be doing so in accord with His word. If they aren't, I have no interest in their "truth."

Very well put. I agree.

Flattery is a very dangerous thing: It doesn't often come across as flattery but as encouragement and supportiveness, sliding into a person's heart unresisted, as a result, and subtly inflaming their ego and vanity. It's this sort of thing that captures the "novice" to the faith, especially, who has not yet fully realized what Jesus meant when he said, "for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

Also nicely put.

Yup.



??? Have you encountered a burning bush like Moses? Have you gone toe-to-toe with the mad prophets of Baal in a contest of spiritual power? Have you been struck down in a roadway by Christ and blinded? Have you been caught away by the Spirit to meet with a person struggling to understand the Gospel? God's word doesn't ever indicate that my experiences as His child must parallel closely - or at all - the experiences of those in Scripture.

That is a standard that does not apply. No one is sent to do what Moses did. There are no prophets of Baal. No one is given a ministry like that of Paul. But there are those who experience say, chicken feathers falling and think it is the Holy Spirit. No one had that experience and we can measure that by the Bible and say that is NOT the Holy Spirit. He does not do "shows."

The Bible does tell me, though, what the common spiritual experience will be of those indwelt by the Holy Spirit: conviction (John 16:8), strength (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13), illumination (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16), comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3-5), transformation (Galatians 5:22-23; Romans 8:29).

Well, that is also true, but there is more as need arises.

I don't know that I'd say that experience is the mother of delusion, but that a certain kind of thinking about that experience, a certain sort of reasoning about it, can lead to delusion. See above.

Yes, true. Experience is not alway leading to deception. Depends upon the character of the recipient.

 

[D-D-W]

Tenchi - I encourage you to look into Dr Prince and what he taught. He backed everything up by scripture. He was a Greek scholar before he became a believer. (taught the Greek philosophers at grad level at Cambridge)
He was also fluent in Hebrew, both modern and biblical. He lived in Jerusalem for the last 20 years of his life.

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi - I encourage you to look into Dr Prince and what he taught. He backed everything up by scripture. He was a Greek scholar before he became a believer. (taught the Greek philosophers at grad level at Cambridge)
He was also fluent in Hebrew, both modern and biblical. He lived in Jerusalem for the last 20 years of his life.

Just to be clear: I'm not for or against Derek Prince, since I know little of him.

 

[jaybo]

I think ….

One problem I have with some charismatic groups is the retreat from reason and thinking into fantasy and feelings.

Faith is not an intellectual exercise, it is spiritual knowledge or belief. Charismatics are closer to spiritual truth than intellectuals.

 

[Tenchi]

But there are those who experience say, chicken feathers falling and think it is the Holy Spirit. No one had that experience and we can measure that by the Bible and say that is NOT the Holy Spirit. He does not do "shows."

I agree. Mostly. Like you, I think gold dust or feathers, or a "Holy Spirit fog" descending from above, are a lot of silliness. But just like no one but Moses had his particular burning bush experience with God, no one but you will have exactly the sort of experience with God that you are having. If I want to show from Scripture that feathers, dust and fog are a lot of spiritual bunk, I wouldn't do it from a particular experience of God that so-and-so had in the record of the Bible, but by a general scriptural overview of the way in which God "showed up" and by comparison to what Scripture says is the normal experience of the Spirit that believers may have. In any case, it's a sad day when believers are cheering over feathers falling on them, thinking God has shown Himself. Yikes. This is a pretty...scrawny, pathetic shadow of the glory of the Lord in the OT knocking down those in the temple and forcing them to flee, isn't it?

 

[Tenchi]

Faith is not an intellectual exercise, it is spiritual knowledge or belief. Charismatics are closer to spiritual truth than intellectuals.

I'm curious why you'd say this. I can think of many verses in Scripture that enjoin the engagement of the believer's mind in their walk with God. Romans 12:2, Matthew 22:7, Matthew 16:23, Acts 17:11, Romans 7:22-23, Romans 15:6, 1 Corinthians 14:13-15, Colossians 3:2, and so on.

 

[D-D-W]

Just to be clear: I'm not for or against Derek Prince, since I know little of him.

I know. That is why I urge you to get to know his ministry better.
I had the honor and privilege to speak with him one-on-one on several occasions. He visited our congregation usually 2 times a year during the late 70s into the 80s.

 

[D-D-W]

I'm curious why you'd say this. I can think of many verses in Scripture that enjoin the engagement of the believer's mind in their walk with God. Romans 12:2, Matthew 22:7, Matthew 16:23, Acts 17:11, Romans 7:22-23, Romans 15:6, 1 Corinthians 14:13-15, Colossians 3:2, and so on.

Yes we are to use our minds. But that is not the same thing as faith. Faith is much more than just intellectual assent. Faith comes from HEARING. Rom 10 .17 And what are we to hear? The spoken word from our Lord. The Greek there is Rhema which means a spoken as opposed to a written word.

 

[jaybo]

I'm curious why you'd say this. I can think of many verses in Scripture that enjoin the engagement of the believer's mind in their walk with God. Romans 12:2, Matthew 22:7, Matthew 16:23, Acts 17:11, Romans 7:22-23, Romans 15:6, 1 Corinthians 14:13-15, Colossians 3:2, and so on.

If faith was an exercise of the intellect then the most intelligent would be the most involved believers. I am in the top 1% of intelligence -- a member of Mensa (2%) and (Intertel 1%) -- and was an atheist for the first 34 years of my life. Additionally, universities would be filled with believers, which obviously is not the case.

I believe that we are three-partite beings: body, mind, and spirit. Everyone has a living body and an active mind but the spirit is dead unless one believes. 1 Corinthians 2:13, "And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual."

 

[Christ_empowered]

It isn’t either or is my point. I think there’s too much emo not enough teaching and such. Personal opinion.