These verses PROVE God endorses abortions!

[DivineNames]

Do you believe that God's will determines what is right and wrong?

Or is there a standard outside of this, which God has to conform to, for God's will to be good?

God's will alone determines what is right and wrong.

Which is the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma-


"The second horn of the dilemma (known as divine command theory) runs into four main problems. First, it implies that what is good is arbitrary, based merely upon god's whim; if god had created the world to include the values that rape, murder, and torture were virtues, while mercy and charity were vices, then they would have been. Secondly, it implies that calling god good makes no sense (or, at best, that one is simply saying that god is consistent). Thirdly, it commits the naturalistic fallacy; to explain the evaluative claim that murder is wrong (or the prescription that one should not commit murder) in terms of what god has or hasn't said is to argue from a putative fact about the world to a value (to argue to an ‘ought’ from an ‘is’). Fourthly, it seems to lead to the conclusion that all moral values are at the same level (because what is wrong is simply to disobey god); that is, committing murder is no worse than telling a lie."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma



"Secondly, it implies that calling god good makes no sense"

If the will of God determines what is right and wrong, then God's will is certainly "good", but it appears to become fairly meaningless because it says nothing more than, "What God wills, doesn't go against what God wills".

 

[Muad'Dib]

Do you believe that God's will determines what is right and wrong?

Or is there a standard outside of this, which God has to conform to, for God's will to be good?

God's will alone determines what is right and wrong.

Which is the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma-

Indeed. Good thing I've come across it before.

"The second horn of the dilemma (known as divine command theory) runs into four main problems. First, it implies that what is good is arbitrary, based merely upon god's whim; if god had created the world to include the values that rape, murder, and torture were virtues, while mercy and charity were vices, then they would have been.

Wait, you didn't really explain how that is a problem. God didn't claim that mercy and charity were vices. So where does the problem come in?

Secondly, it implies that calling god good makes no sense (or, at best, that one is simply saying that god is consistent).

If God determines what is good, then how exactly would calling Him good make no sense? :-?

Thirdly, it commits the naturalistic fallacy; to explain the evaluative claim that murder is wrong (or the prescription that one should not commit murder) in terms of what god has or hasn't said is to argue from a putative fact about the world to a value (to argue to an ‘ought’ from an ‘is’).

You need to provide some explanation as to how this precisely applies to your argument.

Fourthly, it seems to lead to the conclusion that all moral values are at the same level (because what is wrong is simply to disobey god); that is, committing murder is no worse than telling a lie."

Well, that's not really a problem, since it's true. All sins are equal before God.

"Secondly, it implies that calling god good makes no sense"

If the will of God determines what is right and wrong, then God's will is certainly "good", but it appears to become fairly meaningless because it says nothing more than, "What God wills, doesn't go against what God wills".

Forget my comment on the second reason then, it appears you decided to apply one of the reasons. Certainly it doesn't say anything more than that. I fail to see why it needs to. God is good. God determines what is wrong and what is right. Therefore when you go against God's will you're doing something bad. There's no more to it than that, that's certainly true. But I fail to see why there needs to be.

You must also remember that the laws of man are different than the laws of God. The laws of God guide humanity, but the laws of man merely guide an individual society. Just because the Bible says it's acceptable to do something or doesn't prohibit a certain action, doesn't make it okay to do it. When you choose to live in a particular society you bind yourself by its laws.

 

[DivineNames]

Forget my comment on the second reason then, it appears you decided to apply one of the reasons. Certainly it doesn't say anything more than that. I fail to see why it needs to. God is good. God determines what is wrong and what is right. Therefore when you go against God's will you're doing something bad. There's no more to it than that, that's certainly true. But I fail to see why there needs to be.

At first sight, to be "morally perfect" looks to be a substantial quality, the kind of thing that we perhaps should find admirable and praiseworthy.

If it means nothing more than the tautology that "God's will is in keeping with God's will", then there is no basis to praise God for being "Good".

 

[DivineNames]

Thirdly, it commits the naturalistic fallacy; to explain the evaluative claim that murder is wrong (or the prescription that one should not commit murder) in terms of what god has or hasn't said is to argue from a putative fact about the world to a value (to argue to an ‘ought’ from an ‘is’).

You need to provide some explanation as to how this precisely applies to your argument.

It is intended to "apply to the argument", in that God's will (an 'is') couldn't create an ‘ought’, i.e. God's will couldn't determine what is right and wrong.

 

[DivineNames]

Fourthly, it seems to lead to the conclusion that all moral values are at the same level (because what is wrong is simply to disobey god); that is, committing murder is no worse than telling a lie."

Well, that's not really a problem, since it's true. All sins are equal before God.

This would be counter-intuitive for most people I suspect.


By the way, not all Christians would agree with you-

http://www.gotquestions.org/sins-equal.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/001/19.65.html

http://www.souldevice.org/qa_sinsequal.html

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?171 ... D=1&id=227

http://www.lifeteen.com/default.aspx?Pa ... mentId=615

 

[headedhome]

Murder

Get real, you can try to twist God's word but your fooling no one but fools. God never has endorsed the murder of the unborn innocent child. We don't understand every thing about God, but we do know His nature and it's not murder of the innocent. You play, you pay, the unborn child shouldn't. Your arguments are so weak I won't even bother using scripture to disprove you, using your brain should do that. Abortion is murder under a politically correct name. Christians supporting murder, the two don't line up. I'm not saying your not a Christian but I am saying your morals don't line up with God's.

 

[thenightmarehero]

Satan endorses abortions not God. Yes God has ordered sometimes that people be killed in mass by his angels and by the Jews, including children. The thing to note is that he does that out of his anger for their sins and as punishment for the sins of the people as a whole.

Take for example the Tsunami of December 26 2004. I believe that to have been the 7th bowl full of the wrath of God, which heralded the death and the second coming of Christ and the Holy Spirit and the defeat of the unholy Trinity (Antichrist, Lucifer, False Prophet). God will take your life, but that does not mean he will not give it back to you by way of reincarnation. Most of us are self-centered because we believe that this is the only life we will have, but that is not true, We get multiple lives to improve our character and earn our entrance into the physical heaven.
Satan has clouded the minds of the public by discourageing the belief in reincarnation. This gives the impression to some that you have to seek fulfillment on a material basis instead of seeking spiritual fulfillment.

The devil does not reincarnate people, God does, as such with his war against God's people, he has used the tactic of legalized abortion to promote the systamized killing of infants who could have helped subvert his cause to defeat his army. He also promoted the legalization of Abortion in this country because it is a choice that would anger God. When God punishes someone he generally punishes the people as a whole as an example and to keep the survivors from continuing to sin. God does not punish individual babies by killing them on an individual basis. The bible makes no mention of killing unborn infants without reason or without just cause, such as punishment as a whole for a certain group of people's sins. If infants are killed it is done on a mass scale for the sins of the people, not on an individual basis. And those infants that die are reincarnated into a different life.

The thing to note is that this universe can be considered the size of God's fingernail. Therefore what we see as a tragedy of 300,000 deaths God sees as adquate punishment for Satan and his army's crimes against Christ and his people. We do not see the transferance of spirits from one body to another, so what we see with our limited vision is limited. What you see as a disaster God sees as a modification of the world to ensure that Satan's mission failed. What God sees is a modification of the universe and Earth to ensure the prospering and evolution of his people. God does not destroy spirits, save in the case of Satanists. Those individuals who died in the tsunami will be reincarnated into another life.

For more details on this read my essay The Ten Sins of the Devil on my website. Read the link below.

 

[kat]

Ever scratched your arm? You killed more live cells with that action than with a standard first trimester abortion.

 

[bibleberean]

Ever scratched your arm? You killed more live cells with that action than with a standard first trimester abortion.

You don't kill an individual human being scratching your arm.

Talk about shallow... :roll:

 

[bibleberean]

Do you think you can scratch this child off your arm?:roll:

 

[kat]

:

 

[bibleberean]

:

Killing babies is funny? :o

 

[kat]

You missed the point entirely. That's what was funny.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Ever scratched your arm? You killed more live cells with that action than with a standard first trimester abortion.

This establishes exactly nothing. The cells found in a fetus- Latin for BABY- are more than just "live cells."

In America
Twelve percent of abortions take place after the first trimester- that translates to over 100,000 per year. That's twice as many as die in auto accidents, and more than died in Hiroshima.

 

[Quath]

In America
Twelve percent of abortions take place after the first trimester- that translates to over 100,000 per year. That's twice as many as die in auto accidents, and more than died in Hiroshima.

Just wanted to make a couple of points.

1. 90,000 died at Hiroshima when the bomb fell, and by 1945 the total death from the bomb was about 140,000.

2. 1/4 of all women have miscarriages. 78% of all conceptions end in miscarriage. So if these cells are so special, why do they die all the time naturally? (This seems to indicate that either God is a bad designer or He doesn't care about the life of a fetus at all.)

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

In America
Twelve percent of abortions take place after the first trimester- that translates to over 100,000 per year. That's twice as many as die in auto accidents, and more than died in Hiroshima.

Just wanted to make a couple of points.

1. 90,000 died at Hiroshima when the bomb fell, and by 1945 the total death from the bomb was about 140,000.

2. 1/4 of all women have miscarriages. 78% of all conceptions end in miscarriage. So if these cells are so special, why do they die all the time naturally? (This seems to indicate that either God is a bad designer or He doesn't care about the life of a fetus at all.)

Quath

God also destroyed the entire world with a flood. You have had these questions answered before.

You see as an atheist you are an enemy of God. He has the job you want.

All men die because of sin.

War, murder, abortion

Using your convoluted and shallow logic killing anyone at anytime isn't such a bad thing because we all die anyway...

No big deal right?... :roll:

Your logic and reasoning are based on an extreme prejudice against the truth.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

Ecclesiastes 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Ecclesiastes 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

Ecclesiastes 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

Ecclesiastes 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

Ecclesiastes 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

God cares...

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

It is too bad some people are to shallow and foolish to miss His love.

Proverbs 17:16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

Psalms 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

 

[Quath]

God also destroyed the entire world with a flood. You have had these questions answered before.

You see as an atheist you are an enemy of God. He has the job you want.

All men die because of sin.

War, murder, abortion

Using your convoluted and shallow logic killing anyone at anytime isn't such a bad thing because we all die anyway...

No big deal right?... :roll:

Your logic and reasoning are based on an extreme prejudice against the truth.

Jesus was suppose to die for sin so there would be no reason for God to kill fetuses. So why do fetuses die through miscarriage? Either it is God's will that they die (why does God want them dead) or it is bad planning on God's part.

You may come up with other reasons, but it would imply some weird limitations on God like Adam's sin messed up the reproductive system and God could not fix it.

I am not justifying abortion here, I am just showing that fetus death means little to God or else He would fix this flaw in our reproductive system.

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

Everything will be fixed by God.

Things are going to be fine.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

In the end God will be vindicated and all fools who judge God will be destroyed.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[thenightmarehero]

Ever scratched your arm? You killed more live cells with that action than with a standard first trimester abortion.

You don't kill an individual human being scratching your arm.

Talk about shallow... :roll:

Kat, Bibleberean,
Read my essays on Dreams and Nightmares and The Ten Sins of the Devil. It looks like you need the information.

 

[bibleberean]

Ever scratched your arm? You killed more live cells with that action than with a standard first trimester abortion.

You don't kill an individual human being scratching your arm.

Talk about shallow... :roll:

He was making an analogy between God and the size of this universe (fingernail in comparison to him) and the cells in our bodies. Read my signature, those who interpret symbols literally are truely in Hell. Read my essays on Dreams and Nightmares and The Ten Sins of the Devil. It looks like you need the information.

I have the bible and I don't need you. Scratching your arm and killing cells is not the same thing as killing a child.

No symbolism, that is the truth.