These verses PROVE God endorses abortions!

[Lewis]

4th grade reading comprehension. Get to work.

kat what do you mean by that statement ? Are you insulting people ?

 

[Quath]

One problem is that the mother was also killed and the rest of the family. Yes this is a command to destroy a whole people and it is a just judgement. It is not singling out an inconvienience , it is eliminating wickedness at the root.

Are you saying that babies are rooted in wickedness and should be destroyed? Or do you think that if these babies had been born and raised in a good culture, that they would have turned out alright?

Quath

 

[PHIL121]

Hmmm..lets see.

"kat" joins the board about 10 days ago...half her posts on in this topic. All her other posts are in non-Christian topics.

Two questions....

Why'd you join this board, 'kat'?

And how much is NOW paying you? :

 

[Soma-Sight]

One problem is that the mother was also killed and the rest of the family. Yes this is a command to destroy a whole people and it is a just judgement. It is not singling out an inconvienience , it is eliminating wickedness at the root.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,

Isnt that what HITLER said about the Jews 70 years ago??????????

You will be hard pressed to condone genocide in a reasonable fashion my friend![/b]

 

[kat]

Hmmm..lets see.

"kat" joins the board about 10 days ago...half her posts on in this topic. All her other posts are in non-Christian topics.

Two questions....

Why'd you join this board, 'kat'?

And how much is NOW paying you? :

I like to laugh. ;-)

 

[Lewis]

kat, I fail to see anything funny.

 

[bibleberean]

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I thought we believers might need a word of encouragement. :D

 

[Free]

One problem is that the mother was also killed and the rest of the family. Yes this is a command to destroy a whole people and it is a just judgement. It is not singling out an inconvienience , it is eliminating wickedness at the root.

Are you saying that babies are rooted in wickedness and should be destroyed? Or do you think that if these babies had been born and raised in a good culture, that they would have turned out alright?

Quath

These instances in the Bible are divine judgement from God. How can you compare God's judgement to abortion, the vast majority of which are done out of total selfishness and to cover up sin? Everyone wants to have their fun but no one wants to have to deal with the very natural consequences of that fun.

 

[DivineNames]

(1) there is no destruction of real human life - no problem

(2) they go to heaven - no problem

(3) God sends them to hell for all eternity - if you think that is a problem then take it up with your God.

Can we get some clarity here ?

Was that difficult for you to understand?

 

[Quath]

These instances in the Bible are divine judgement from God. How can you compare God's judgement to abortion, the vast majority of which are done out of total selfishness and to cover up sin? Everyone wants to have their fun but no one wants to have to deal with the very natural consequences of that fun.

I compare because it is inconsistent. God wants babies killed in the OT. Why? The answers to this make no sense and if this cannot be answered, then I don't think you can show that God (if He existed) would even care about abortion. Here are some of the answers and the problems:

1. The babies were born evil. - That would imply an "evil gene" and thus show there is no free will and original sin is meaningless.

2. Babies are sinful and the wages of sin is death. - Yet all the Israelites were sinful and were not kiilled. Randomly killing people is not justice for sin. Either God has to kill everyone or none. Anything else is just arbitrariness.

3. Babies are killed because their parents were sinful. - This contradicts the part of the Bible where it says that the son will not pay for the iniquity of the father.

4. If God had spared the babies and let the pregnant mothers have their babies (they could kill the mothers after the birth), then it would use too much resources to keep these orphans alive. - God can make manna from heaven. Resources are not a problem is He can make a million people survive in the desert for 40 years.

So what we are left with is that God could have spared the babies, but He chose not to. That says He does not care about the life of a baby or unborn child. (He may care about specific babies and unborn children, but He does not care about all the children.) If He doesn't care about all, how can you say which ones He cares about?

Here is where I have a hard time understanding. Pro-lifers are very upset at the thought of the unborn dieing. Yet most believe that God ordered the killing of pregnant women and it was a good thing. Can you imagine a pregnant women being stabbed to death with a sword at God's command? Which is nicer to the unborn? If the sword went through it also, or if it dies of starvation from the death of its mother? If you can think of this, I hope you can see how morally bankrupt this line of thought is.

Imagine hacking at women and children with a sword back then and thinking "I am doing God's glorious work." It is a frightful image.

Quath

 

[Dave...]

It's a sad day when someone is so blinded by their own their own self centeredness, and their hatred of others, that they cannot even reason anymore. Yes, now we need to convince mothers, with the truth, that it's a bad thing and wrong to murder their own children. Sad.

Pro murder advocates will say anything to try to fool anybody. You can prove them wrong all day day long with the facts, their minds are simply unable to reason that what they are teaching is a myth. Self deception to the extreme.

 

[bibleberean]

Amen Dave, Amen!

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Soma-Sight]

It's a sad day when someone is so blinded by their own their own self centeredness, and their hatred of others, that they cannot even reason anymore. Yes, now we need to convince mothers, with the truth, that it's a bad thing and wrong to murder their own children. Sad.

Pro murder advocates will say anything to try to fool anybody. You can prove them wrong all day day long with the facts, their minds are simply unable to reason that what they are teaching is a myth. Self deception to the extreme.

You deny the Word of God when it states blatant infant genocide in multiple events?[/code]

 

[antitox]

It's a sad day when someone is so blinded by their own their own self centeredness, and their hatred of others, that they cannot even reason anymore. Yes, now we need to convince mothers, with the truth, that it's a bad thing and wrong to murder their own children. Sad.

Pro murder advocates will say anything to try to fool anybody. You can prove them wrong all day day long with the facts, their minds are simply unable to reason that what they are teaching is a myth. Self deception to the extreme.

Yes, it is sad. It's all about self;

Well, Steve Taylor did say on his first recording:

"You save the whales
you save the seals
you save whatever's cute and squeals
but you kill "that thing" that's in the womb
would not want no baby boom

Good, bad, laugh and scorn
blame yourself for kiddie porn
convenience is the law you keep
and your compassion's ankle deep

Who you tryin' to kid, kid?
wrap it in a fine philosophy
who you tryin' to kid, kid?
but your bottom line still says "me me me"
got your head together now?
got a way that's better now?
who you tryin' to kid, kid?"

 

[Brother Ian]

Talk about taking verses out of context.

 

[Soma-Sight]

2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.


If that is not desciptive of modern day medical abortion techniques I dont know what is? :-? [/quote]

 

[bibleberean]

What 2 Kings 8:1-12 says...

2 Kings 8:1-12 Then spake Elisha unto the woman, whose son he had restored to life, saying, Arise, and go thou and thine household, and sojourn wheresoever thou canst sojourn: for the LORD hath called for a famine; and it shall also come upon the land seven years. And the woman arose, and did after the saying of the man of God: and she went with her household, and sojourned in the land of the Philistines seven years. And it came to pass at the seven years' end, that the woman returned out of the land of the Philistines: and she went forth to cry unto the king for her house and for her land. And the king talked with Gehazi the servant of the man of God, saying, Tell me, I pray thee, all the great things that Elisha hath done. And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land. And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son, whom Elisha restored to life. And when the king asked the woman, she told him.

So the king appointed unto her a certain officer, saying, Restore all that was hers, and all the fruits of the field since the day that she left the land, even until now. And Elisha came to Damascus; and Benhadad the king of Syria was sick; and it was told him, saying, The man of God is come hither. And the king said unto Hazael, Take a present in thine hand, and go, meet the man of God, and enquire of the LORD by him, saying, Shall I recover of this disease?

So Hazael went to meet him, and took a present with him, even of every good thing of Damascus, forty camels' burden, and came and stood before him, and said, Thy son Benhadad king of Syria hath sent me to thee, saying, Shall I recover of this disease? And Elisha said unto him, Go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the LORD hath shewed me that he shall surely die. And he settled his countenance stedfastly, until he was ashamed: and the man of God wept. And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child.

 

[Quath]

2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.


If that is not desciptive of modern day medical abortion techniques I dont know what is? :-?

Bibleberean was right in that this one was out of context. It shows sadness at the thought of ripped up pregnant women.

But Soma-Sight is right in that the word of God states infant genocide in several places.

It is easier to use an example like God's speech:

Hosea 9 - "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

to show this.

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

God is the one who gives life and the one who takes it away.

God can take a life or execute punishment on a nation. The children who have yet done neither good nor evil are in God's hands. We can rest assured that God will do right.

The thing is man cannot take this judgement upon himself.

The bible states thou shalt not kill but yet man can kill and defend himself and his family in self defense but he cannot wilfully take a life for any reason.

Skeptics and atheists can never understand the difference and have no wisdon when it comes to God.

These arguments have been going on since the fall of man form Eden and will continue until Christ returns and vindicates Himself.

God does not sanction abortions or murder.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The following quote is from this website...

http://devoted.to/truth

"If there really were a God of love, the innocent wouldn't suffer."

Answer: If God eradicated everyone who has ever caused pain by selfishness, cheating, lying, gossiping or hurtful remarks, who would be left?


People say, "Suffering is God's fault!", conveniently forgetting times our own anger, greed and lies hurt others. To wipe out some people who cause suffering, and spare you and me, would make God guilty of gross injustice. We have each added to humanity's shame. If there is a God of love, the people he loves and longs to place in a pain-free world are the very ones who cause humanity's suffering.


We are so far from being innocent that we owe our very existence to sin. If, for example, we traced our family tree far enough, we would probably each find an ancestor born as a result of sin - rape, unlawful incest, a despised pregnancy, sex before marriage, and the like. Humanity can boast only one perfect Person. We killed him.


Frequently, we hear or read a comment like this: "I simply cannot believe in a god who permits innocent children to starve and suffer, and men like Hitler and Stalin to murder millions of people." The examples may vary, but the thoughts are always the same. Supposedly, this is "proof" that either God doesn't exist, or that if He does, He either doesn't care about our sufferings, or He is not powerful enough to do anything about them. But suffering is neither proof of God's non-existence or existence.


Saying, "If God exists, why is there suffering?" is like saying "If San Francisco exists, why are there earthquakes?" Do earthquakes occur because San Francisco causes them? Or do they occur in spite of San Francisco? Or do they have nothing to do with San Francisco? Well, we know the answer to that question because we know about San Francisco and we know about earthquakes. But how much do we really know about God? If we define Him by our own nature, then He cannot be of any greater character than ourselves. We may ascribe to Him a greater power than ourselves, but when we suppose that God should or should not act like this or that, then all we are really saying is, "He should act like I would if I were God."


Now, let's look at starving children. The Bible says that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. That includes everything necessary to feed and provide for its inhabitants. Can anyone deny that the earth is capable of producing more than enough food to feed the entire globe? Well then, if people are starving, whose fault is that? If God made the earth, is He also supposed to plant and distribute our crops for us? Do you remember the tons of food that were shipped to Ethiopia, but did not reach the starving people who needed it? Whose fault was that?

The reason that over 90% of the masses have barely enough to survive on, is that there is a problem of distribution, not of supply. A tiny minority have far more than they need, depriving the many.

Regarding suffering that is the result of sin, what could be clearer than Romans 1:28–29 and Galatians 6:8–9? The unbeliever may stomp about with all vigor and complain that it is "bigotry" to associate the rise of AIDS and other diseases to sin; that biblical morality is narrow-minded, outdated, and totally wrong. But this fact is unalterable: In a society where biblical morality is abandoned, suffering always increases. Where biblical morality is followed, suffering always declines. Always. (Isa.59:1-4).


As to Hitler, Stalin, street gangs and senseless murders: Would any of these things happen if people followed the teachings of Jesus? Do you realize what this world would be like if people simply followed God's instructions? There would be no murder, no wars. There would be no welfare, because families would take care of their own (and families would stay together) and those who did not have families would be provided for by their fellow-members in Christ. There would be no starvation… I could go on, but the point is: God has provided us answers; whose fault is it that we don't seek them or heed them when we find them?


I suspect that those who use suffering as a "proof" of God's non-existence would not want to have their free choice taken away from them, but that's exactly what God would have to do if He were to enforce His will on the earth. For if God were to intervene in the matter of suffering, would He not also intervene in the matter of sin? If He did, He would have to be a dictator. Then how would we react? We would not want that, and according to the Bible, God doesn't want it either. He wants us to obey Him because we want to, not because we have to. And in order to accomplish this, He must allow two things to happen. First, in order to grant us free choice, He must provide us with graphic examples of the consequences of the wrong choice. Secondly, He must allow injustices and sufferings; otherwise he'd provide sinful mankind with every blessing and benefit without restriction. If everything in this life was fair, good and happy, what need would there be to seek a better life? Why would we seek a Deliverer, if there was nothing to be delivered from? Suffering is not something that ought to turn people away from God, but draw them to Him.

 

[Quath]

God can take a life or execute punishment on a nation. The children who have yet done neither good nor evil are in God's hands. We can rest assured that God will do right.

In other words, "Don't question. Just kill when told to."

Skeptics and atheists can never understand the difference and have no wisdon when it comes to God.

What Hitler said and what Joshua said were earily similar. We could use some good healthy skepticism to wonder if a God would really want little children killed with rocks and swords.

"If there really were a God of love, the innocent wouldn't suffer."

Answer: If God eradicated everyone who has ever caused pain by selfishness, cheating, lying, gossiping or hurtful remarks, who would be left?

This misses the point of the problem of suffering. The first problem is it assumes there has to be suffering. God could have made suffering impossible. Some counter arguments are based on the idea of free will, but those are typically not good ones. For example, God is suppose to be good and has free will, so he could have made other good creatures with free will.

The other problem is God is suppose to be like a father to all of us. Yet what father would sit by and watch his 9 year old daughter get gang raped and mulitated? What father would ignore one son molesting a daughter while the son says that the father gave permission (Catholic priest molestation)? What father would ignore a baby dieing in a trash can? What father would command one son to kill the children of another?

It all falls apart. Either God cares or He doesn't. Either He helps or He doesn't. It seems that people just accept a God that helps find car keys and pick lucky lottery numbers but ignores starving children and people killing in His name.

Quath