Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God

[Alfred Persson]

Correct and we study so that we don't misunderstand something. I know I have read through the Bible more times than I can count. From when I first started, until now, I understand much more than when I first began.

Great to hear. Keep studying, eventually you will realize all the OT prefigures of the Word who was God, adding to His divine nature, human nature by being born of a virgin who was made to conceive by direct creative action of the Holy Spirit. That is why what was born is most Holy, the Son of God:

And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; The Holy One who is born will be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:35 NKJ)

 

[Runningman]

Its amazing how the OT prepped the Jews to receive God in the Flesh, Jesus Christ. There are indications of it everywhere, including the text you cite. When Yahweh called down fire upon Sodom, FROM Yahweh in heaven another text in point:


Then YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHWH out of the heavens. (Gen. 19:24)

Hosea 12 adds more information to that and makes it clear that the one Jacob wrestled with was an angel, a god one may say, but not The God.

Hosea 12
2The LORD also brings a charge against Judah.
He will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
3In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel,
and in his vigor he wrestled with God.
4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought His favor;
he found Him at Bethel
and spoke with Him there—

 

[Consecrated Life]

We should check this against the wisdom of the Bible. If that man who wrestled with Jacob was actually God, but worshipping or praying to a man as though they are God is idolatry then the man himself isn't God. Often this particular passage you're referring to is interpreted as Jacob having wrestled with an angel. We can avoid a lot of problems this way. I don't think God would perpetuate idolatry by taking on the form of a man

By your reasoning you are claiming that no one in the bible believed that Jesus was God ?
Or do you believe that there is some one in scripture you think believed Him to be God ?
Which by inference then means that you believe there was a time when Jesus did not exist?

 

[Runningman]

By your reasoning you are claiming that no one in the bible believed that Jesus was God ?
Or do you believe that there is some one in scripture you think believed Him to be God ?
Which by inference then means that you believe there was a time when Jesus did not exist?

I cannot find any clear evidence anyone in the Bible believed Jesus is God. I see they believed Jesus is a man, anointed by God, empowered by God, given authority by God, whom God was with and worked through, but not himself God. I also see they believed God is actually a person. A thinking, feeling, person with a will and a plan. I cannot find any evidence that Jesus actually pre-existed his birth except for perhaps in God's set plan and foreknowledge.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hosea 12 adds more information to that and makes it clear that the one Jacob wrestled with was an angel, a god one may say, but not The God.

Hosea 12
2The LORD also brings a charge against Judah.
He will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
3In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel,
and in his vigor he wrestled with God.
4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought His favor;
he found Him at Bethel
and spoke with Him there—

Scripture never contradicts itself, Jacob struggled with God, "The Angel of the LORD" is a theophany of God as an angel. In Genesis 18 God appeared as a "man".

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

This is why John, a faithful Jew, could say Jesus is God the Word, the Only begotten Son of God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Hosea 12 adds more information to that and makes it clear that the one Jacob wrestled with was an angel, a god one may say, but not The God.

Hosea 12
2The LORD also brings a charge against Judah.
He will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
3In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel,
and in his vigor he wrestled with God.
4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought His favor;
he found Him at Bethel
and spoke with Him there—

There is a glaring distinction between your description of who this angel is & Hosea's description of Him.
You refer to Him as "an angel" of which the bible tells us that there are hundreds of thousands .

Jacob wrestled with was an angel, ( Runningman)

But Hosea describes Him quite differently in biblical lingo
Hosea describes Him as being THE ANGEL .
As in the only one.
" 4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;"
Interesting is it not that THE ANGEL who is able to bestow such Great Blessing upon Jacob and all future generations remained nameless?

Even when Jacob asked for His name ?

Gen 32:29
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Where else in scripture do we see the only other instance of this almost identical scenario happening as one of the Patriarchs who is in the process of being bestowed great Blessings and responsibility is asking the Bestower for His name ?
Exo 3:13
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

In biblical terms AN ANGEL is not in the same building as THE ANGEL

 

[Runningman]

Scripture never contradicts itself, Jacob struggled with God, "The Angel of the LORD" is a theophany of God as an angel. In Genesis 18 God appeared as a "man".

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

This is why John, a faithful Jew, could say Jesus is God the Word, the Only begotten Son of God.

Correct, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. Jacob wrestled with an angel. God is not a man, contrary to how that verse is often translated.

Just a few verses earlier, in Hosea 11:9, God bluntly and plainly said he isn't a man. In the context of Jacob wrestling, it was not with God, but rather with an angel.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

 

[Runningman]

There is a glaring distinction between your description of who this angel is & Hosea's description of Him.
You refer to Him as "an angel" of which the bible tells us that there are hundreds of thousands .

But Hosea describes Him quite differently in biblical lingo
Hosea describes Him as being THE ANGEL .
As in the only one.
" 4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;"
Interesting is it not that THE ANGEL who is able to bestow such Great Blessing upon Jacob and all future generations remained nameless?

Even when Jacob asked for His name ?

Gen 32:29
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Where else in scripture do we see the only other instance of this almost identical scenario happening as one of the Patriarchs who is in the process of being bestowed great Blessings and responsibility is asking the Bestower for His name ?
Exo 3:13
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

In biblical terms AN ANGEL is not in the same building as THE ANGEL

God is not a man. For the record, ’ĕ·lō·hîm doesn't have to be translated as "God." It can refers to angels depending on the context.

Begin here:

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

Hosea 12
2The LORD also brings a charge against Judah.
He will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
3In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel,
and in his vigor he wrestled with God.
4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought His favor;
he found Him at Bethel
and spoke with Him there —

Genesis 32
28Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men, and you have prevailed.”

 

[Consecrated Life]

God is not a man. For the record, ’ĕ·lō·hîm doesn't have to be translated as "God." It can refers to angels depending on the context.

Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

[Runningman]

Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Some versions actually do translate that word "God" as "an angel." It isn't wrong. Hosea 12:4 confirms it.

There are many reasons why Jacob may do that, but that really isn't the point. I am more interested in whether or not the man Jacob wrestled with is actually God manifesting as a man or an angel manifesting as a man. There is good precedent for angels doing this, yet God flat-out denied being a man. I am going to take my chances with the angel being the correct way to understand who Jacob wrestled with.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

There are many reasons why Jacob may do that,....

name one ?

 

[Runningman]

name one ?

I think you're reading into it a bit because you're saying that's what Jacob was thinking when it doesn't really reveal what he was thinking. All he said was "my life was preserved" after a wrestling match. I would be willing to guess it was on Jacob's mind that he may not survive that encounter. Who knows. What's your point please.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I think you're reading into it a bit because you're saying that's what Jacob was thinking when it doesn't really reveal what he was thinking. All he said was "my life was preserved" after a wrestling match. I would be willing to guess it was on Jacob's mind that he may not survive that encounter. Who knows. What's your point please.

You veering far away from what Jacob points to as the threat to his life.
He does not say it is the hand to hand grappling that posed the risk to his life .
In fact such a physical threat does not even jive with scripture's depiction of who was actually winning the wrestling match.
Jacob was on top.
Jacob had both of The Angel's shoulders pinned to the mat & The Angel was down for the count.
So much so that The Angel had to resort to a bit of supernatural power and wrench Jacob's hip out of joint by merely touching it with His finger:
Gen 32:25
"And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him."

An interesting aside is the fact evidenced by The Angel taking one of Jacobs legs out of commission with a mere touch is that The Angel could have easily taken every one of Jacob's joints out of place with the blink of an eye and have defeated Jacob without breaking a sweat.
Which means that The Angel intended for Jacob to have the upper hand .


Add to that that even when The Angel did that much damage to Jacob's leg , Jacob still refused to let the wrestling match end, even as The Angel is asking for it to be over:

Gen 32:26
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

No, without a doubt Jacob is saying it is what he has SEEN that posed the threat to his life , not the hand to hand grappling

By any reasonable understanding of the wrestling match , my question stands?

Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

[Runningman]

You veering far away from what Jacob points to as the threat to his life.
He does not say it is the hand to hand grappling that posed the risk to his life .
In fact such a physical threat does not even jive with scripture's depiction of who was actually winning the wrestling match.
Jacob was on top.
Jacob had both of The Angel's shoulders pinned to the mat & The Angel was down for the count.
So much so that The Angel had to resort to a bit of supernatural power and wrench Jacob's hip out of joint by merely touching it with His finger:
Gen 32:25
"And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him."
Add to that that even when The Angel did that much damage to Jacob's leg , Jacob still refused to let the wrestling match end, even as The Angel is asking for it to be over:

Gen 32:26
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

No without a doubt Jacob is saying it is what he has SEEN that posed the threat to his life , not the hand to hand grappling

By any reasonable understanding of the wrestling match , my question stands?

Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jacob came out severely injured, the angel didn't. This was more like a game of cat and mouse. Jacob lost. In any case, a man couldn't beat God in a wrestling match. This is referring to an angel wrestling with Jacob.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jacob came out severely injured, the angel didn't. Jacob lost. In any case, a man couldn't beat God in a wrestling match. This is referring to an angel wrestling with Jacob.

Neither could Jacob win a wrestling match with The Angel, unless it was The Angel's intent that Jacob prevail.
The Angel having demonstrated to be fully capable of displacing every joint in Jacob's body with the touch of a finger if he had wished to do so.
Yes ? No ?
Your alleging that The Angel was not purposely holding back his power in this match shows you do not even have full discernment of the incident as described .
My question still stands:


Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

[Runningman]

Neither could Jacob win a wrestling match with The Angel, unless it was The Angel's intent that Jacob prevail.
The Angel having demonstrated to be fully capable of displacing every joint in Jacob's body with the touch of a finger if he had wished to do so.
Yes ? No ?
Your alleging that The Angel was not purposely holding back his power in this match shows you do not even have full discernment of the incident as described .
My question still stands:

They wrestled a long time then he seems have have just suddenly dislocated Jacob's hip when he had enough of it.

Why would Jacob think that looking upon an angel 's face or a man's face was deserving of death ?

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

I disagree that Jacob was thinking that. I think Jacob was just grateful to be alive.

 

[Consecrated Life]

They wrestled a long time then he seems have have just suddenly dislocated Jacob's hip when he had enough of it.


I disagree that Jacob was thinking that. I think Jacob was just grateful to be alive.

I believe God's intended Lesson for Jacob in this dust up was purely a Spiritual one.
And that Jacob believed his possible death would have been a Spiritually related one .
Not death from a Hammer lock to his jugular vein , followed by half Boston Crab, ending with a pile driver/ modified with a full nelson.
That you believe God's main interest in this encounter was temporal & fleshly , a test of Jacob's Greco -Roman wrestling skills does not surprise me at all at this point.

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

 

[Runningman]

I believe God's intended Lesson for Jacob in this dust up was purely a Spiritual one.
And that Jacob believed his possible death would have been a Spiritually related one .
Not death from a Hammer lock to his jugular vein , followed by half Boston Crab, ending with a pile driver/ modified with a full nelson.
That you believe God's main interest in this encounter was temporal & fleshly , a test of Jacob's Greco -Roman wrestling skills does not surprise me at all at this point.

I thought the wrestling reference was funny, but I actually agree with this.

Gen 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Anyway, I don't really see that as a good reason God Himself actually came down as a human. Angels were present in the context of Genesis 32 beginning at verse 1. The translation "elohim" can refer to angels. I guess this was going to lead to Jesus at some point. Well, Isaiah 63:8,9 says something interesting about Jesus too.

Isaiah 63
8For He said, “They are surely My people,
sons who will not be disloyal.”
So He became their Savior.
9In all their distress, He too was afflicted,
and the Angel of His Presence saved them.
In His love and compassion He redeemed them;
He lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.

 

[Free]

Well, Isaiah 63:8,9 says something interesting about Jesus too.

Isaiah 63
8For He said, “They are surely My people,
sons who will not be disloyal.”
So He became their Savior.
9In all their distress, He too was afflicted,
and the Angel of His Presence saved them.
In His love and compassion He redeemed them;
He lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.

What about that passage suggests it’s about Jesus?

I find it interesting that you’ll readily apply a verse or two from prophecy to Jesus but when the inspired authors of the NT do so, you deny that that’s what they have done. Why the double standard?

 

[Runningman]

What about that passage suggests it’s about Jesus?

Who else would an angel of God's presence be that was sent to save His people, the house of Israel? The New Testament repeatedly says God sent Jesus to save his people. This is a prophecy. The Messiah didn't come to the house of Israel until after Jesus was born, of course.