Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[Grubal Muruch]

If we deny Him, He'll deny us. That sounds like we're just like Him, doesn't it? ;)

Let's get serious here. God gave us a freewill so we could freely come to Him. He freely came and died for us, so He wants us to freely come to Him. I'm not sure why you have to turn it into something it isn't.

Amen Glory

 

[smaller]

It is true that 'man' can choose not to do the will of EVIL.

But the fact is that the will of EVIL exists WITH man and that will is of the TEMPTER.

Man does not change the mind or will of the TEMPTER. That will is a separate operational will in man and it is AN EVIL WILL.

All of us have succumbed to that other will when we SIN.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[glorydaz]

It is true that 'man' can choose not to do the will of EVIL.

But the fact is that the will of EVIL exists WITH man and that will is of the TEMPTER.

Man does not change the mind or will of the TEMPTER. That will is a separate operational will in man and it is AN EVIL WILL.

All of us have succumbed to that other will when we SIN.

enjoy!

smaller

The tempter is outside of man. As he was with Eve...as he was with Jesus.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;588434]If we deny Him, He'll deny us. That sounds like we're just like Him, doesn't it? ;)

Quite the opposite.

Let's get serious here.

Oh, you were joking. Ah ha, and ha ha.

God gave us a freewill so we could freely come to Him. He freely came and died for us, so He wants us to freely come to Him. I'm not sure why you have to turn it into something it isn't.

I don't think men come to Him unless we have Him in us.

 

[Chan]

For those who believe there is no free-will and that ALL things are predestined ahead of time, (by God) including sin,death, Hell, election, man, Satan, lake of fire, choice's, love, hate, desire, lust, etc,.etc,... Logic dictates that if there truly is no choice for man, then God makes ALL the choice's for man, correct?? Therefore, anything good or evil was and is created by God, is that not so?? He choose before the foundation of the world, who would and would not be saved, correct?? He choose for no other reason than, it was He's will...The elect were not any different than the non-elect, true?? It was simply because, that was His will, right?? A few would be saved and the rest (majority) would spend eternity in torment for the sins, God was responsible for creating. correct?? Because, (non-elective) man is extremely evil and wicked...By the "design of God." And therefore, must be judged accordingly...Because of the sin God willed for them to commit. Right?? But, Christ came and died only, for a few chosen elect. Those elect are no different than those whom God choose to condemn, other than it was His will...They had the "luck of the draw." Right?? So God created a massive amount of people only for the purpose of making them (evil by His own will) So He could pick just a very small portion of elect to save...Neither one of these groupings deserve anything less than judgement, but God decided I'll just pick these few lucky ones. Right?? And because I made the others sin so badly, I'll cast them into the lake of fire and judge them for an eternity (or as some believe, annihilation) Are you truly at ease serving a god like that?? Who would purposely make and create people to sin, in order to turn around and judge them for the sins he created...And the "elect" only get chosen "by the skin on their teeth...This does not at all resemble the God of the Bible. There were times when He brought judgement down on "evil and disobedient men" this is true, but there were times when He showed "great mercy, love and forgiveness." He must "judge" sin to be considered a "righteous" God. He shows mercy, love, and forgiveness because He is a merciful and Loving creator...The word says that, "He sent His Son to die for the sins of the world (pay the price for our sins) why? because He said He "loved" the world (all of us) He's desire is that ALL men come to Him and receive His forgiveness and mercy through His Son... But, He loved us enough to create within each and every one of us, a "free-will" to choose. The God of the Bible doe not want to force Himself upon us but desires that we come to Him as a "loving and forgiving creator." Next, your opinions. Thanks...

There is not so much as a single passage of scripture that says (or claims) that humans do or do not have "free will." These are merely interpretations of scripture. That being said, I think we need to ask ourselves exactly what we mean by "free will."

If, by "free will," we mean simply that humans have the capacity (ability) to choose whatever we want to choose, then I would say that humans have the capacity to choose what is within their sinful nature to choose. In that regard, the Bible is replete with passages indicating that there is no one who seeks after God and that the thoughts of man's heart are only evil continually (and similar expressions). Jesus specifically stated with regard to salvation in Matthew 19 that "With man this is impossible..." indicating that man cannot, on his own, choose salvation.

If, however, by "free will" we mean what we should mean - that humans have the right to choose (since freedom necessitates having rights) - then the answer is an unequivocal "No". If man has the right to choose whatever he wants, then God cannot punish man for exercising a right that God gave him. That would be like saying Americans have the right to (quoting our Constitution's First Amendment) the "free exercise" of religion but the government is going to punish us for exercising that right.

Getting back to the capacity to choose definition of "free will," can we even say that God has "free will"? If, as we understand from scripture, God cannot violate His own nature (e.g. God cannot be unjust, cannot be unholy, etc.), then He is not free to choose what is outside of His character.

So, I would say that "free will" means having the right to choose and that the fact that God punishes sin is evidence that we don't have the right to choose and, therefore, don't have "free will."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Quite the opposite.

Oh, you were joking. Ah ha, and ha ha.

I don't think men come to Him unless we have Him in us.

Man, that's a new angle...

 

[childeye]

Man, that's a new angle...

The thing that a man has when Jesus says "whosoever hath" is Godly Love.
Matthew 13:11-12

King James Version (KJV)



11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

John 5:38

King James Version (KJV)


38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 5:42

King James Version (KJV)


42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
1 John 4:6

King James Version (KJV)


6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:8

King James Version (KJV)


8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:12-14

King James Version (KJV)



12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

 

[smaller]

The tempter is outside of man. As he was with Eve...as he was with Jesus.

That is what the tempter leads believers to, in their MINDS.

tag

s

 

[Asyncritus]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned or discussed these passages?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut 11.26 ¶ Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Choice is implicit in those words, as is free will.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned or discussed these passages?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut 11.26 ¶ Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Choice is implicit in those words, as is free will.

AMEN

 

[glorydaz]

That is what the tempter leads believers to, in their MINDS.

tag

s

Fortunately, I have great assurance that He that is in me is greater than the defeated adversary you seem to fear so much. We need only resist him and he flees. Of course, if you want to cheer him on, feel free. I already know the ending of this story.

 

[Jam]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned or discussed these passages?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut 11.26 ¶ Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Choice is implicit in those words, as is free will.

Noone is denying the existence of choice. In fact, I think a lot of this thread has just been us splitting hairs over the exact definition of the "free" in "free will". Here's a few posts relating to our conflicts over definition, to save you the trouble of reading the entire thread!

Yes. Freewill is the ability to choose what you will believe in, without the control of an outside source...

free will n. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free+will
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice chose to remain behind of my own free will.)
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

free will n.
1. (Philosophy)
a. the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
b. the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory Compare determinism
c. (as modifier) a free-will decision
2. the ability to make a choice without coercion he left of his own free will I did not influence him)

Thesaurus:
Noun 1. free will - the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies
discretion
power, powerfulness - possession of controlling influence; "the deterrent power of nuclear weapons"; "the power of his love saved her"; "his powerfulness was concealed by a gentle facade"
self-determination - determination of one's own fate or course of action without compulsion

I think it's important to not confuse external elements that may be considered when making a choice, versus the act of coercion or force and removal of the ability to choose whichever way you wish. ;)

Grubal's definition states...without "control" by an outside source.
That gives man the option of freely choosing.
External influences do not change the fact that we can choose.

Yes we have the choice in a purely subjective way. Freewillers are saying we make a choice but so are determinists. The determinist does not care about the fact we make a choice but why we choose what we choose morally. So that Love is identified as the power of morality and not human will.

Thanks for admitting we all have the capacity - once again - to make moral choices. That's what free will is all about: having the capacity to make moral decisions.

the ability to choose between right and wrong is that which separates us from the animals and is what we call "free will."

Yes; we make decisions. But, no matter what decision we make, there will always have been something that caused us to make that decision. This factor will either be external or it will not be external. If it is external, then we can safely say that the decision was not free. If it is not external, then it will necessarily rely upon something else either external or not. We could keep on looking after causes of things until we reach entirely external factors - given that we have not existed forever, all causal paths will eventually lead to external factors.

[at Stormcrow]
You are conflating the idea of will with the idea of free will. That is a logical fallacy. Period.

If an event is probabilistic or deterministic then it is not free.

I was building on other information in the thread. You are trying to make some distinction between will and free wiil. I merely posted the going defs of will since the defs of free will have already been posted.

What you missed was the idea connected to the words of coercion and or force by any non internal elements.

we're saying that a will is still free if it is caused by external factors, as long as these external factors do not use "force" or "coercion"?

I am talking about "free will". That ability to make a choice based upon whatever influences he so wishes to engage or encounters yet not being forced nor coerced by anyone or anything and surely not a false choice predesignated by God.

the existence of choice does not imply the existence of free will.

Only a being with the freedom of will to make [a moral] choice is given such a choice.

Choice implies will. Choice does not imply free will. Will ≠ free will.

The only discussions of free will ever had are those defining free will as "the ability of agents to make decisions free from external factors", or some similar definition.

merriam-webster.com:
Will
a: mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending
b: a disposition to act according to principles or ends
c: the collective desire of a group the will of the people
Free Will
freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

yourdictionary.com:
Will
your ability to make decisions or restraining yourself from doing something or something that a person desires or wants.
Free will
the freedom of the will to choose a course of action without external coercion but in accordance with the ideals or moral outlook of the individual

thefreedictionary.com:
Will
a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action.
b. The act of exercising the will.
Free Will
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

dictionary.com:
Will
1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions.
2. power of choosing one's own actions.
3. the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition.
4. wish or desire.
5. purpose or determination, often hearty or stubborn determination; willfulness.
Free Will
free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

1.the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined.
2. the ability to make a choice without coercion.

If, by "free will," we mean simply that humans have the capacity (ability) to choose whatever we want to choose...
...If, however, by "free will" we mean what we should mean - that humans have the right to choose (since freedom necessitates having rights)...
...I would say that "free will" means having the right to choose and that the fact that God punishes sin is evidence that we don't have the right to choose and, therefore, don't have "free will."

 

[glorydaz]

I don't think men come to Him unless we have Him in us.

I guess you're free to think whatever you like, but it's certainly not what the Word of God says.
Why would we need to seek Him and find Him if He was already in us? Some self-discovery or something?

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Is Jesus playing hide-and-seek with us? Is He hiding in us until we figure out He's there? ;)

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[glorydaz]

Noone is denying the existence of choice. In fact, I think a lot of this thread has just been us splitting hairs over the exact definition of the "free" in "free will". Here's a few posts relating to our conflicts over definition, to save you the trouble of reading the entire thread!

Has anyone bothered to read my thread on the ante-nicene fathers? They were the closest to the time of the Apostles than any other of the church fathers. They didn't seem as confused as many that are posting on this thread. Course, what do they know...they only were there at the time? ;)

 

[smaller]

Fortunately, I have great assurance that He that is in me is greater than the defeated adversary you seem to fear so much. We need only resist him and he flees. Of course, if you want to cheer him on, feel free. I already know the ending of this story.

Hey, you are certainly welcome to bypass and ignore this fact for yourself:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I also have it on good authority that sinners do not know God and never have regardless of their claims:

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

s

 

[reba]

If we deny Him, He'll deny us. That sounds like we're just like Him, doesn't it? ;)

Let's get serious here. God gave us a freewill so we could freely come to Him. He freely came and died for us, so He wants us to freely come to Him. I'm not sure why you have to turn it into something it isn't.

No mankind is not like Him we are sinners He sin free. We needed the blood of lambs He is the spotless Lamb. No we are like Him.. Not one of us could have paid the price for the sins of mankind. No we are not like Him. We fail God daily. No we are not like Him we cannot grant salvation to anyone. He is of the Trinity we are not. He the Saviour we the saved. He is the ONLY begotten Son of God. We are human. We are created beings. He always was.

 

[glorydaz]

No mankind is not like Him we are sinners He sin free. We needed the blood of lambs He is the spotless Lamb. No we are like Him.. Not one of us could have paid the price for the sins of mankind. No we are not like Him. We fail God daily. No we are not like Him we cannot grant salvation to anyone. He is of the Trinity we are not. He the Saviour we the saved. He is the ONLY begotten Son of God. We are human. We are created beings. He always was.

That first part of my post was a joke, Reba, in response to something childseye had said.

You're correct, we are not like Him, but we will be.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[glorydaz]

Hey, you are certainly welcome to bypass and ignore this fact for yourself:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I also have it on good authority that sinners do not know God and never have regardless of their claims:

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

s

Lucky for me I abide in Christ, there is no condemnation for me.

Because of our position IN CHRIST, we are freed from the law of sin and death.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[smaller]

Lucky for me I abide in Christ, there is no condemnation for me.

Because of our position IN CHRIST, we are freed from the law of sin and death.

Again your view speaks nothing with regards to the will of the tempter that also operates in ALL.

Your blanket view does not extend to the operation of that will.

Sorry.

s

 

[reba]

Good deal; Daz post 237! i was scared for a few...