Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[glorydaz]

Again your view speaks nothing with regards to the will of the tempter that also operates in ALL.

Your blanket view does not extend to the operation of that will.

Sorry.

s

What is the will of the "tempter" to me? He has no power over me.

Satan can do nothing but what God allows, and if God allows some trial to beset me, I know it's only so that I can grow more like Jesus. Our Lord's yoke is easy and His burden light, and He never gives us more than we can handle.

God is greater than any defeated adversary who is only biding his time before being thrown into the lake of fire.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

We are the temple of the living God, and though we are in the world, we are not of the world.

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God;[/b] as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Are you attempting to instill fear in the believers? That is not of God.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[glorydaz]

Good deal; Daz post 237! i was scared for a few...

You need never worry about me, dear. My feet are planted on solid ground...not sinking sand.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Hey, you are certainly welcome to bypass and ignore this fact for yourself:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I also have it on good authority that sinners do not know God and never have regardless of their claims:

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

s

1John 3:6----Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

The meaning of this verse is, If a person (man or woman) is, "in Christ" their sins have been forgiven, through Christ, and they have received the "righteousness " of Christ, due to the fact they're considered (before God) to be, in the body of Christ. They in essence, are covered by the blood of Christ and therefore, God does not consider their sins because of their standing before Him...On the other hand, those that sin, are "unbelievers" that have never known God...

 

[glorydaz]

1John 3:6----Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

The meaning of this verse is, If a person (man or woman) is, "in Christ" their sins have been forgiven, through Christ, and they have received the "righteousness " of Christ, due to the fact they're considered (before God) to be, in the body of Christ. They in essence, are covered by the blood of Christ and therefore, God does not consider their sins because of their standing before Him...On the other hand, those that sin, are "unbelievers" that have never known God...

A BIG AND HEARTY AMEN.

Indeed, Paul says they are ignorant of God's righteousness who go about establishing their own.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We are not sinners in Christ, but saints because His righteousness is counted as ours.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

A BIG AND HEARTY AMEN.

Indeed, Paul says they are ignorant of God's righteousness who go about establishing their own.


We are not sinners in Christ, but saints because His righteousness is counted as ours.

AMEN Glory!!!

 

[smaller]

What is the will of the "tempter" to me? He has no power over me.

The fact that a will that is not yours that brings temptation into MIND shows your mind unable to stop that from transpiring.

In fact that temptation is promised by the scriptures, and is by it's nature, deceptive. In most cases 'believers' believe they are immune and that it's only themselves. That is in fact the tempter working in them and even speaking through them, making that claim.

And the logic of fact still evades you. All sin, sin is of the devil. There is no way to disconnect the matters of sin from the devil without eradicating the scriptures that make that connection. Again, a working of the tempter in those making those types of counter claims to scripture.

Satan can do nothing but what God allows, and if God allows some trial to beset me, I know it's only so that I can grow more like Jesus. Our Lord's yoke is easy and His burden light, and He never gives us more than we can handle.

Again, you are certainly welcome to deny that Satan, the devil, has any role in the matters. That is what Satan does in believers. Falsely makes them think it's 'just themselves.'

Are you attempting to instill fear in the believers? That is not of God.

What you spin as fear is actually fact. But we certainly don't want any of those pesky Word details to derail our false thoughts about these matters eh?

enjoy!

s

 

[glorydaz]

The fact that a will that is not yours that brings temptation into MIND shows your mind unable to stop that from transpiring.

In fact that temptation is promised by the scriptures, and is by it's nature, deceptive. In most cases 'believers' believe they are immune and that it's only themselves. That is in fact the tempter working in them and even speaking through them, making that claim.

And the logic of fact still evades you. All sin, sin is of the devil. There is no way to disconnect the matters of sin from the devil without eradicating the scriptures that make that connection. Again, a working of the tempter in those making those types of counter claims to scripture.


Again, you are certainly welcome to deny that Satan, the devil, has any role in the matters. That is what Satan does in believers. Falsely makes them think it's 'just themselves.'


What you spin as fear is actually fact. But we certainly don't want any of those pesky Word details to derail our false thoughts about these matters eh?

enjoy!

s

Well, if you want to give credit to satan for everything, that's your choice.

No mention of satan here, but we do see the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life.
"Lusts of THEIR OWN HEARTS" and "REPROBATE MIND". But, of course, if you want to give glory to satan, be my guest.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, ovenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

More lusts of the FLESH, and you want to give credit to satan for those, too. Ah well, I'm sure he appreciates the press.

I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The really good news....we abide in Christ. We have overcome the world and the wicked one.

God has not given us a spirit of fear....or "slumber".

I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, if you want to give credit to satan for everything, that's your choice.

No mention of satan here, but we do see the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life.
"Lusts of THEIR OWN HEARTS" and "REPROBATE MIND". But, of course, if you want to give glory to satan, be my guest.


More lusts of the FLESH, and you want to give credit to satan for those, too. Ah well, I'm sure he appreciates the press.


The really good news....we abide in Christ. We have overcome the world and the wicked one.

God has not given us a spirit of fear....or "slumber".

You know Glory, one of the oldest rationalizations is, "The devil made me do it." We as humans have, the world system to contend with, as well as our own flesh. So basically, we must wage war against, "the world, the flesh, and the devil." Christians have an advantage however, because of the Holy Spirit's presence...Unsaved man has only his, conscience and the moral structure that was hopefully "ingrained" in him during his childhood...(by his parents.) Unsaved man is, his own worst enemy...To draw an analogy, "when we have a computer and we want to keep it safe from viruses, we install a "firewall" that protects us from external attack, the Holy Spirit is the Christian's equivalence of a "firewall." Without the Spirit, we're much more "vulnerable" to attacks within and without...

 

[smaller]

Well, if you want to give credit to satan for everything, that's your choice.

Credit for 'everything?'

Is this supposed to be some type of factual based reasoned discussion engaging matters presented in scriptures?

LOL

s

 

[smaller]

You know Glory, one of the oldest rationalizations is, "The devil made me do it."

Pulling out the Flip Wilson card is worthless to this discussion.

The devil does what the devil does. What does that have to do with your choice or your will?

Nothing...

Your will does not change the devils will and the TEMPTER's will certainly operates IN MAN's mind.

You can tell who is in charge by 'fruit' or lack thereof, particularly fruit of the truthful kind.

s

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Pulling out the Flip Wilson card is worthless to this discussion.

The devil does what the devil does. What does that have to do with your choice or your will?

Nothing...

Your will does not change the devils will and the TEMPTER's will certainly operates IN MAN's mind.

You can tell who is in charge by 'fruit' or lack thereof, particularly fruit of the truthful kind.

s

1 John 4:4 states, "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Therefore, if your truly a "born-again" child of God, you need not fear the devil so much, because, " greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." James 4:7 states, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

These verses pertain to those whom have been "born again by the Spirit of God."

 

[smaller]

1 John 4:4 states, "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Therefore, if your truly a "born-again" child of God, you need not fear the devil so much, because, " greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." James 4:7 states, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

These verses pertain to those whom have been "born again by the Spirit of God."

If your position is that the tempter does not tempt you in MIND so be it!

s

 

[Drew]

I believe in free-will, but I'll provide some food for thought.

Read Romans 9. It is very challenging. It says God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

I am quite familiar with Romans 9. In short, I believe this material is deeply misunderstood by many.

First, I entirely agree that the text clearly shows that God 'interferes' with human free will. However - and this is where the misundertanding lies - what Paul is describing is decidedly not God interfering with people's "free will" in respect to becoming members of the family of God.

To put it another way, this chapter is not about "individual salvation", as most suppose, but about something else.

So yes, God does "tinker" with human free will, but He does so in respect to things other than the final destinies of specific individuals.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If your position is that the tempter does not tempt you in MIND so be it!

s

I don't believe, anyone would deny that...Just make sure your "born again by the Spirit of God" Sounds like your very "fearful" of the devil's ability to tempt you. Are you living your life in a "Christian" way?? Or are you "enslaved to sinfulness??" 1 Corinthians 10: 13 states, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

You should be reading and studying your Bible everyday and going to God in prayer...You need not fear Satan so much, if your doing these things...

 

[smaller]

I believe the SCRIPTURES...not the LIES that tell believers their minds are FREE and IMMUNE from the CORRUPTION of an ENTITY that is not 'us.'

Make of it what you will and EXCUSE the SERPENTS WORKing...which tells me all I need to know of the 'freewill' mind....

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

This is Paul speaking to BELIEVERS.

There is a battle IN MIND and MINDS are corruptible by another WILL that is not our own.

Now, all you freewillers are welcome to deny these facts.

I say you have already entered the ground of the corrupter on this particular FACT of scripture and you do so in blinded ignorance imposed upon your MIND by that working.

No offense to any believer intended in conveyance of these facts. Being fallen in this present life and resting on ones laurels is certainly not grounds of eternal expulsion in my understandings.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but has anyone mentioned or discussed these passages?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deut 11.26 ¶ Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Choice is implicit in those words, as is free will.

Yes, Asyncritis they have been mentioned as well as Joshua 24:19 in rebuttal of freewill. You are very late to the party. If you read a bit of the dialogue in this thread you will note we are not discussing whether we make choices as in wether we have a will, but rather degrees of how freely those choices are made as in a freewill vs. an enslaved will. There are some here who continue to claim an absolutely freewill and will not discuss the concept that a man's will is ever enslaved and they do this by claiming freewill means to choose. My position is that the degree of freedom in the will can only be in relation to how well someone sees the Truth of God. I would therefore point out many animals choose. Even computers choose.
Joshua 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)



19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
20If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
21And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;588931]I guess you're free to think whatever you like, but it's certainly not what the Word of God says.

Actually it is what Jesus said that makes me think that way. I've posted the scriptures many times. I"d guess you would say it is your free choice to ignore the words of the Lord, but I would advise you take them to heart.

Why would we need to seek Him and find Him if He was already in us? Some self-discovery or something?

You answered your own question. The Holy Spirit reveals the hidden things in our hearts that are ungodly such as God gave us the ability to disobey Him.

Is Jesus playing hide-and-seek with us? Is He hiding in us until we figure out He's there?

Matthew 11:25

King James Version (KJV)


25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Good question glorydaz.

 

[childeye]

Has anyone bothered to read my thread on the ante-nicene fathers? They were the closest to the time of the Apostles than any other of the church fathers. They didn't seem as confused as many that are posting on this thread. Course, what do they know...they only were there at the time? ;)

I believe that the early church fathers discussed it since the Old and New Testament hinge upon the issue of freewill..

I would here say we are not to be followers of any men other than Christ. The early church was full of schism as was predicted by Jesus, Paul and Peter.

Here are the words of 2Clement:

2Clem 1:3
What recompense then shall we give unto Him? Or what fruit worthy of
His own gift to us? And how many mercies do we owe to Him!

2Clem 1:4
For He bestowed the light upon us; He spake to us, as a father to his
sons; He saved us, when we were perishing.

2Clem 1:5
What praise then shall we give to Him? Or what payment of recompense
for those things which we received?

2Clem 1:6
We who were maimed in our understanding, and worshipped stocks and
stones and gold and silver and bronze, the works of men; and our
whole life was nothing else but death. While then we were thus
wrapped in darkness and oppressed with this thick mist in our vision,
we recovered our sight, putting off by His will the cloud wherein we
were wrapped.

2Clem 1:7
For He had mercy on us, and in His compassion saved us, having beheld
in us much error and perdition, even when we had no hope of
salvation, save that which came from Him.

2Clem 1:8
For He called us, when we were not, and from not being He willed us
to be.

 

[glorydaz]

You know Glory, one of the oldest rationalizations is, "The devil made me do it." We as humans have, the world system to contend with, as well as our own flesh. So basically, we must wage war against, "the world, the flesh, and the devil." Christians have an advantage however, because of the Holy Spirit's presence...Unsaved man has only his, conscience and the moral structure that was hopefully "ingrained" in him during his childhood...(by his parents.) Unsaved man is, his own worst enemy...To draw an analogy, "when we have a computer and we want to keep it safe from viruses, we install a "firewall" that protects us from external attack, the Holy Spirit is the Christian's equivalence of a "firewall." Without the Spirit, we're much more "vulnerable" to attacks within and without...

Yep, the world the flesh and the devil. The flesh is the only one of those three that is internal, and as long as man is in the flesh, he will have to deal with this "body of flesh." The devil must use the lusts of the world and the pride of life to get to man. Believers can fall victim to spiritual pride, which they should always guard against...no doubt.

God, the Creator of all things, is in control of all things. He allows satan to offer up the lusts of this world system, but he can only do what God sees fit. The unsaved are perfectly content being distracted by the things of this world, but when God calls us into His wonderful light, He gives us all the armour we need. He supplies us with the helmet of salvation, the shield of faith whereby we quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, the breastplate of (His) righteousness, our feet are shod with gospel of peace, and our loins are girt about with truth. What's to fear? He has not given us a spirit of fear...we need only RESIST and the devil will flee. It works perfectly if man will only use it. ;)

Why do some people have such a hard time accepting that God is infinitely GREATER than one who can only do what God permits him to do? Since everything works together for good for those that love God, we can be confident that whatever comes our way is for the purpose of our being conformed into the image of Christ. The absolute best way to combat any thoughts satan might throw our way is with Scripture. "Get behind me satan." That is not a "Flip Wilson" saying, that's a quote from our Lord when faced with temptation.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;589500]Yep, the world the flesh and the devil. The flesh is the only one of those three that is internal, and as long as man is in the flesh, he will have to deal with this "body of flesh." The devil must use the lusts of the world and the pride of life to get to man. Believers can fall victim to spiritual pride, which they should always guard against...no doubt.

God, the Creator of all things, is in control of all things. He allows satan to offer up the lusts of this world system, but he can only do what God sees fit. The unsaved are perfectly content being distracted by the things of this world, but when God calls us into His wonderful light, He gives us all the armour we need. He supplies us with the helmet of salvation, the shield of faith whereby we quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, the breastplate of (His) righteousness, our feet are shod with gospel of peace, and our loins are girt about with truth. What's to fear? He has not given us a spirit of fear...we need only RESIST and the devil will flee. It works perfectly if man will only use it. ;)

Good words glorydaz. I would concur completey although I would call the flesh external, and the deeds of Satan I would not say absolutely that God allows it, but in a proportianal sense, yes. I would therefore rather say say they were inevitable because Satan was inevitable. I would note that in the parable of the tares the enemy planted the tares while the master slept, and in the parable of the vineyard the owner was away while the servants were left in charge.

Why do some people have such a hard time accepting that God is infinitely GREATER than one who can only do what God permits him to do?

Here I cannot join in with you, because I sense you are refering to smaller and he has not said nor implied that God is not infinitely greater than one who can only do what God permits others to do.

Since everything works together for good for those that love God, we can be confident that whatever comes our way is for the purpose of our being conformed into the image of Christ.

These are good words.

The absolute best way to combat any thoughts satan might throw our way is with Scripture. "Get behind me satan." That is not a "Flip Wilson" saying, that's a quote from our Lord when faced with temptation.

You have mistaken what smaller meant by a "flip wilson". Smaller is resisting the temptor. He's only saying he doesn't choose to have to deal with it in the first place. You are missing that.