Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[childeye]

Ignatius to the Ephesians regarding men's need to be healed. As Jesus said to the Pharisees as they had need to hear it,"the sick need a doctor".
Also that men who are faithful will not choose to do those things that are not of the faith. As Jesus said to those who had need to hear it, "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit".

CHAPTER 7
7:1 For some are wont of malicious guile to hawk
about the Name, while they do certain other things
unworthy of God. These men ye ought to shun, as wild-
beasts; for they are mad dogs, biting by stealth;
against whom ye ought to be on your guard, for they
are hard to heal.
7:2 There is one only physician, of flesh and of
spirit, generate and ingenerate, God in man, true Life
in death, Son of Mary and Son of God, first passible
and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.

CHAPTER 8
8:1 Let no one therefore deceive you, as indeed ye
are not deceived, seeing that ye belong wholly to God.
For when no lust is established in you, which hath
power to torment you, then truly ye live after God. I
devote myself for you, and I dedicate myself as an
offering for the church of you Ephesians which is
famous unto all the ages.
8:2 They that are of the flesh cannot do the things
of the Spirit, neither can they that are of the Spirit
do the things of the flesh; even as faith cannot do
the things of unfaithfulness, neither unfaithfulness
the things of faith. Nay, even those things which ye
do after the flesh are spiritual; for ye do all things
in Jesus Christ.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yep, the world the flesh and the devil. The flesh is the only one of those three that is internal, and as long as man is in the flesh, he will have to deal with this "body of flesh." The devil must use the lusts of the world and the pride of life to get to man. Believers can fall victim to spiritual pride, which they should always guard against...no doubt.

God, the Creator of all things, is in control of all things. He allows satan to offer up the lusts of this world system, but he can only do what God sees fit. The unsaved are perfectly content being distracted by the things of this world, but when God calls us into His wonderful light, He gives us all the armour we need. He supplies us with the helmet of salvation, the shield of faith whereby we quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, the breastplate of (His) righteousness, our feet are shod with gospel of peace, and our loins are girt about with truth. What's to fear? He has not given us a spirit of fear...we need only RESIST and the devil will flee. It works perfectly if man will only use it. ;)

Why do some people have such a hard time accepting that God is infinitely GREATER than one who can only do what God permits him to do? Since everything works together for good for those that love God, we can be confident that whatever comes our way is for the purpose of our being conformed into the image of Christ. The absolute best way to combat any thoughts satan might throw our way is with Scripture. "Get behind me satan." That is not a "Flip Wilson" saying, that's a quote from our Lord when faced with temptation.

Beautifully put Glory...I would like to add one thought and that is, "the devil "already" has the "unbelievers" he need not torment them, for they already serve their own flesh and are more vulnerable to, the world, the flesh, and the devil." On the other hand, "the true believers" are the main focus of Satan's attacks, but we (believers) are less vulnerable due to the fact we have the "armors" you spoke of, plus as you said, Satan must get "permission" first...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;589392]You know Glory, one of the oldest rationalizations is, "The devil made me do it."

Grubal it is not rational to imply your sins were done according to your free choice to be deceived. If you say you freely chose so as to take responsibility for your choice to sin, then you essentially are saying you meant to deny God and reasoned it was the better choice. Thank God for Jesus who has mercy and understanding.
Acts 26:18

King James Version (KJV)


18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal it is not rational to imply your sins were done according to your free choice to be deceived. If you say you freely chose so as to take responsibility for your choice to sin, then you essentially are saying you meant to deny God and reasoned it was the better choice. Thank God for Jesus who has mercy and understanding.
Acts 26:18

King James Version (KJV)


18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Yes, we choose to sin... Temptation comes along and we could "resist" it, or we could, "give into it. That's our choice...

 

[childeye]

Yes, we choose to sin... Temptation comes along and we could "resist" it, or we could, "give into it. That's our choice...

So was the crucifying of the Christ a sin? So why didn't you resist sin?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So was the crucifying of the Christ a sin?

Be a little more "specific" about the details of your question???

 

[childeye]

Be a little more "specific" about the details of your question???

Is it wrong to crucify the innocent? Why did you not resist the temptation to sin?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Is it wrong to crucify the innocent? Why did you not resist the temptation to sin?

Now instead of being more specific, you've added two separate questions combined in one sentence??? Child what are you looking for by asking two questions within one sentence??? I want to answer you but, I'm not sure what your "intent"is???

 

[glorydaz]

I believe the SCRIPTURES...not the LIES that tell believers their minds are FREE and IMMUNE from the CORRUPTION of an ENTITY that is not 'us.'

Make of it what you will and EXCUSE the SERPENTS WORKing...which tells me all I need to know of the 'freewill' mind....

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

This is Paul speaking to BELIEVERS.

There is a battle IN MIND and MINDS are corruptible by another WILL that is not our own.

Now, all you freewillers are welcome to deny these facts.

I say you have already entered the ground of the corrupter on this particular FACT of scripture and you do so in blinded ignorance imposed upon your MIND by that working.

No offense to any believer intended in conveyance of these facts. Being fallen in this present life and resting on ones laurels is certainly not grounds of eternal expulsion in my understandings.

enjoy!

s

You, my fellow poster, are the "by any means" Paul is talking about here, because you're trying to entice people away from the simplicity that is in Christ. You're walking proof of what happens when a person's mind is set on satan instead of Christ. You haven't resisted, you've agreed that he has power.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Stop for a moment and look at your words. Are they showing forth Christ? In any way, whatsoever?

I say, you will know them by their fruit. This anger and derision of fellow believers does not come from God.

It's obvious to me that the church should be more worried about the things of the flesh that tear apart and don't build up the body of Christ, instead of feeding the vitriol that comes from touting satan's power.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You, my fellow poster, are the "by any means" Paul is talking about here, because you're trying to entice people away from the simplicity that is in Christ. You're walking proof of what happens when a person's mind is set on satan instead of Christ. You haven't resisted, you've agreed that he has power.




Stop for a moment and look at your words. Are they showing forth Christ? In any way, whatsoever?

I say, you will know them by their fruit. This anger and derision of fellow believers does not come from God.

It's obvious to me that the church should be more worried about the things of the flesh that tear apart and don't build up the body of Christ, instead of feeding the vitriol that comes from touting satan's power.

AMEN to you Glory...

 

[glorydaz]

So was the crucifying of the Christ a sin? So why didn't you resist sin?

LOL You're quite the thinker, Childeye. ;)

Why would crucifying Christ be a sin? It was the will of God that Christ go to the cross.

I didn't resist, because if I did, I wouldn't have gotten my sins forgiven.

Now admit it....I'm smart.

 

[childeye]

Now instead of being more specific, you've added two separate questions combined in one sentence??? Child what are you looking for by asking two questions within one sentence??? I want to answer you but, I'm not sure what your "intent"is???

Grubal they are two seperate questions and not one sentence. Regarding the first question, is crucifying the son of God a sin; my intent is to get you to declare it is a sin. After all, you say we all know right from wrong.

Regarding the second question, why did you not resist the temptation to sin; you have claimed that everyone can choose to resist the temptation via freewill, yet you are a sinner and have not always done so, which makes your claim hypocritical. My intent is to say that we are all sinners, not by choice but by deception of vanity, lack of understanding. For if freewill is pertaining to the ability to reason it is unreasonable that a man should disobey his Maker.

So what are your answers?

 

[glorydaz]

I am quite familiar with Romans 9. In short, I believe this material is deeply misunderstood by many.

First, I entirely agree that the text clearly shows that God 'interferes' with human free will. However - and this is where the misundertanding lies - what Paul is describing is decidedly not God interfering with people's "free will" in respect to becoming members of the family of God.

To put it another way, this chapter is not about "individual salvation", as most suppose, but about something else.

So yes, God does "tinker" with human free will, but He does so in respect to things other than the final destinies of specific individuals.

I agree, and if He does "tinker," it's because He makes them an "offer they couldn't refuse". Pharoah, for example, had a hard heart to begin with. God merely utilized it to "let my people go." He hardened an already hard heart even further so He could send a message of His Great Power and His Mercy to His chosen people.

 

[childeye]

LOL You're quite the thinker, Childeye. ;)

Why would crucifying Christ be a sin? It was the will of God that Christ go to the cross.

The question was for Grubal. However I will answer why crucifying the Christ is a sin. But first I would point out that it was the will of God to end all sacrifices for sin by showing us a better way, mercy and understanding.

It is a sin to crucify an innocent man because it is not loving others as I would want to be loved. I however, according to the same reasoning, am willing to sacrifice myself even as Christ did for the same reason,"for they know not what they do".

I didn't resist, because if I did, I wouldn't have gotten my sins forgiven.
Now admit it...I'm smart.

.

So the question was, why didn't you resist the temptation to sin? And your answer was so that you could get your sin forgiven? I don't see how I can honestly regard that as a smart answer. I would then be led to ask, why would you presume you would be forgiven? Are you not taking the mercy of God for granted?

 

[glorydaz]

Joshua 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)



19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
20If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
21And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

Let's put up the whole quote, shall we?
What you've posted is very misleading..you posted the middle part.

Here, Joshua is telling them, "Choose you this day whom ye will serve:" He then goes on to say they are lying if they claim they have chosen the Lord when they obviously chose to worship idols (not that they didn't have the ability to choose right) for Joshua and others already had chosen to serve God.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

 

[smaller]

You, my fellow poster, are the "by any means" Paul is talking about here, because you're trying to entice people away from the simplicity that is in Christ. You're walking proof of what happens when a person's mind is set on satan instead of Christ. You haven't resisted, you've agreed that he has power.

You can spin the the fact of the tempter in this way:

"when a person's mind is set on satan"

which has ZERO to do with the scriptural observations I've put forth, THAT BEING that Satan tempts and operates in the MIND of MAN.

Would you care to address that fact OR SPIN doctor it to meaningless strawman drivel???

You see the instant you acknowledge the facts of scriptures regarding the tempter operating in the mind of mankind your freewill fairytale COVERING UP for the scriptural fact goes away...and that impetus in your mind knows it and dissuades you with very unconvincing stawmen responses that are and remain irrelevant.

Like I said before, you do have my sympathy for that behaviour.

enjoy!

s

 

[glorydaz]

I believe that the early church fathers discussed it since the Old and New Testament hinge upon the issue of freewill..

I would here say we are not to be followers of any men other than Christ. The early church was full of schism as was predicted by Jesus, Paul and Peter.

Here are the words of 2Clement:

2Clem 1:3
What recompense then shall we give unto Him? Or what fruit worthy of
His own gift to us? And how many mercies do we owe to Him!

2Clem 1:4
For He bestowed the light upon us; He spake to us, as a father to his
sons; He saved us, when we were perishing.

2Clem 1:5
What praise then shall we give to Him? Or what payment of recompense
for those things which we received?

2Clem 1:6
We who were maimed in our understanding, and worshipped stocks and
stones and gold and silver and bronze, the works of men; and our
whole life was nothing else but death. While then we were thus
wrapped in darkness and oppressed with this thick mist in our vision,
we recovered our sight, putting off by His will the cloud wherein we
were wrapped.

2Clem 1:7
For He had mercy on us, and in His compassion saved us, having beheld
in us much error and perdition, even when we had no hope of
salvation, save that which came from Him.

2Clem 1:8
For He called us, when we were not, and from not being He willed us
to be.

I read Clements for the longest time after you posted this, and I found nothing I disagreed with. He was a believer probably 100 yrs. or so after Christ, and his writings were great. Everything we read, of course, has to be compared to the inspired Word of God, but compared to what's being preached and taught today, or later in the history of the church, it was very refreshing.

I have no problems with any of the quotes you posted either. If you're referring to the "darkness' and "thick mist", I know from personal experience how it literally feels like the sun coming out on a cloudy day in comparison to pre-salvation. Fellowship with God makes all the difference. That certainly doesn't give man an excuse, because he still see's God in nature (knows there is a God), has a conscience given by God, so man is without excuse. No excuse. None. So sayeth the Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Ignatius to the Ephesians regarding men's need to be healed. As Jesus said to the Pharisees as they had need to hear it,"the sick need a doctor".
Also that men who are faithful will not choose to do those things that are not of the faith. As Jesus said to those who had need to hear it, "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit".

CHAPTER 7
7:1 For some are wont of malicious guile to hawk
about the Name, while they do certain other things
unworthy of God. These men ye ought to shun, as wild-
beasts; for they are mad dogs, biting by stealth;
against whom ye ought to be on your guard, for they
are hard to heal.
7:2 There is one only physician, of flesh and of
spirit, generate and ingenerate, God in man, true Life
in death, Son of Mary and Son of God, first passible
and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.

CHAPTER 8
8:1 Let no one therefore deceive you, as indeed ye
are not deceived, seeing that ye belong wholly to God.
For when no lust is established in you, which hath
power to torment you, then truly ye live after God. I
devote myself for you, and I dedicate myself as an
offering for the church of you Ephesians which is
famous unto all the ages.
8:2 They that are of the flesh cannot do the things
of the Spirit, neither can they that are of the Spirit
do the things of the flesh; even as faith cannot do
the things of unfaithfulness, neither unfaithfulness
the things of faith. Nay, even those things which ye
do after the flesh are spiritual; for ye do all things
in Jesus Christ.

And this points to what? Total depravity? No free-will?

I don't see either in that passage. I see the flesh, but not the devil. So, what's the point, again?

 

[childeye]

Let's put up the whole quote, shall we?
What you've posted is very misleading..you posted the middle part.

I was not intent on misleading anybody. This post was meant for Asyncritus who had already posted the part that said "choose whom you will serve". My point was to show Asyncritus that it made no difference that Joshua said "choose" since he afterward said "you can't serve God".

 

[childeye]

I read Clements for the longest time after you posted this, and I found nothing I disagreed with. He was a believer probably 100 yrs. or so after Christ, and his writings were great. Everything we read, of course, has to be compared to the inspired Word of God, but compared to what's being preached and taught today, or later in the history of the church, it was very refreshing.

I have no problems with any of the quotes you posted either. If you're referring to the "darkness' and "thick mist", I know from personal experience how it literally feels like the sun coming out on a cloudy day in comparison to pre-salvation. Fellowship with God makes all the difference. That certainly doesn't give man an excuse, because he still see's God in nature (knows there is a God), has a conscience given by God, so man is without excuse. No excuse. None. So sayeth the Lord.

I am of the same persuasion as 2Clements and so I felt compelled to post this to point out that I am saying the same things as some of the early church.

Regarding the no excuse part, I sincerely feel you are misapplying it. It is saying there is no excuse for vanity, not giving God the glory for any wisdom, Love, all that are called virtues. even the virtue to acknowledge what is virtuous.