Bible Study "Thou Shalt Not Murder" analysis

[reba]

You dont want me to get into abortion....

Very often cherry picking a scripture changes its meaning... Notice my siggy.. "Chapter and verse are listed please read in context".

A passage that goes along with the "Thou shall not kill" is this one...
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,


Here is a rule...
deface the ball in any manner;

Do you know for sure what game this is from... is it golf? Soccer ? Football? Volly ball ? or would knowing some more of the rules make this clear.

(a) (1) Bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber.

(2) Apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;

(3) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;

(4) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;

(5) deface the ball in any manner;

(6) deliver what is called the "shine" ball, "spit" ball, "mud" ball or "emery" ball. The pitcher, of course, is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.

 

[kevinmaynard]

The thing about the commandment of thou shall not kill vs murder is it is one sentence. There is no other context to consider but the sentence. Which sentence is correct. Thou shall not kill or Thou shall not murder? The difference in meaning is quite profound.

 

[Tristan]

The thing about the commandment of thou shall not kill vs murder is it is one sentence. There is no other context to consider but the sentence. Which sentence is correct. Thou shall not kill or Thou shall not murder? The difference in meaning is quite profound.

This is exactly the point I would make. There is a striking difference between murder and killing. Also, John the Baptist, the one who came to prepare the way for Jesus said this:

"Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”" -Luke 3:1

They weren't told to not be soldiers.

 

[Nathanael Chong]

That scripture does not mean that you need to know everything about Jesus and the Bible, it means that you love the Lord with all your whole being. Yes it is important to have knowledge and if you truly love the Lord you will want to know as much about Him as possible, but you are not going to convince anyone that will not be convinced even if you have all the answers. Unless the Holy Spirit is dealing with their hearts, you can't convince anyone. "An though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, buy have not love, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:3

I agree with you completely. We can't convince anyone who refuses to be convinced.

 

[Sinthesis]

The thing about the commandment of thou shall not kill vs murder is it is one sentence. There is no other context to consider but the sentence. Which sentence is correct. Thou shall not kill or Thou shall not murder? The difference in meaning is quite profound.

Are you sure about that? Thou shall not kill is an absolute statement, without qualifier. So does your interpretation extend this prohibition of killing to all its forms, including the killing of animals?

 

[kevinmaynard]

Are you sure about that? Thou shall not kill is an absolute statement, without qualifier. So does your interpretation extend this prohibition of killing to all its forms, including the killing of animals?

I take it mean humans only, but I could be wrong. Could be we are not to kill animals. Animals are emotional and can suffer just like us.

 

[Free]

The thing about the commandment of thou shall not kill vs murder is it is one sentence. There is no other context to consider but the sentence. Which sentence is correct. Thou shall not kill or Thou shall not murder? The difference in meaning is quite profound.

Yes, the difference is quite significant. However, no one verse stands completely on its own. There is always the context of the rest of Scripture. As such, we find God commanding the death of people throughout the law and many other places in the OT. We must then conclude that the commandment to not "kill" is not an absolute statement about never killing, and that it should be qualified with something like "thou shall not kill unjustly," which really means "do not murder".

So, yes, the KJV is not the best translation for this commandment but given the context of the entirety of Scripture, it is not necessarily wrong, just confusing and gives the appearance of contradiction. Every translation relies on men but men are fallible and biased, so things are not always translated quite as well as they could have been. This is why it is best to rely on many translations.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Yes, the difference is quite significant. However, no one verse stands completely on its own. There is always the context of the rest of Scripture. As such, we find God commanding the death of people throughout the law and many other places in the OT. We must then conclude that the commandment to not "kill" is not an absolute statement about never killing, and that it should be qualified with something like "thou shall not kill unjustly," which really means "do not murder".

So, yes, the KJV is not the best translation for this commandment but given the context of the entirety of Scripture, it is not necessarily wrong, just confusing and gives the appearance of contradiction. Every translation relies on men but men are fallible and biased, so things are not always translated quite as well as they could have been. This is why it is best to rely on many translations.

It is either right or wrong. If it is wrong we shouldn't really use it.

Can't say we need to add words to it for it to be correct. Or qualify it.

 

[Free]

It is either right or wrong. If it is wrong we shouldn't really use it.

Can't say we need to add words to it for it to be correct. Or qualify it.

It would be better if it said "Thou shall not murder," but "kill" isn't necessarily wrong as the rest of Scripture shows that it likely means "murder". That is simply how biblical interpretation works. Use another version for that commandment if you like.

 

[kevinmaynard]

It would be better if it said "Thou shall not murder," but "kill" isn't necessarily wrong as the rest of Scripture shows that it likely means "murder". That is simply how biblical interpretation works. Use another version for that commandment if you like.

That would be an incorrect translation thus wrong.

 

[Free]

That would be an incorrect translation thus wrong.

I have shown how that is not necessarily the case but if you want to believe so, go ahead. It really makes little difference.

 

[Sinthesis]

I take it mean humans only, but I could be wrong. Could be we are not to kill animals. Animals are emotional and can suffer just like us.

Why do you take it to mean humans only? According to your assertion, you have no context to consider but the sentence.

 

[Tristan]

I think of it as a mistranslation. "Do not murder" makes way more sense to me. Jesus even addressed this in Matthew:

"“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." -Matthew 5:21-24 (ESV)

Jesus cuts to the core of what the law means by making that contrast. In fact the word for "fool" is "raca" which is a term of reproach. It's contempt...unjust ill will toward someone. As always, it's about what's in your heart. Murder is to kill with malice in your heart. That's why I believe the commandment is "do not murder". It makes sense in the context.

 

[kevinmaynard]

I have shown how that is not necessarily the case but if you want to believe so, go ahead. It really makes little difference.

You have given a way to wave away an error. The fact remains there is an error. Which is in error is important to know.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Why do you take it to mean humans only? According to your assertion, you have no context to consider but the sentence.

Well because I want it to be humans only because bacon cheeseburgers taste good.

 

[Free]

You have given a way to wave away an error. The fact remains there is an error. Which is in error is important to know.

In no way whatsoever have I waved away an error. I think you need to study on how to properly translate Scripture before making such accusations. If we do want to say it is an error, fine, it is of little consequence. What does it matter?

 

[kevinmaynard]

In no way whatsoever have I waved away an error. I think you need to study on how to properly translate Scripture before making such accusations. If we do want to say it is an error, fine, it is of little consequence. What does it matter?

There are two possible translations currently in use. Thou shall not murder and thou shall not kill. They mean fundamentally different things. One is correct one is an error.

Easy concept.

That you want to call yellow green has nothing to do with it. One can't simply say that ford is a chevy depending on how you look at it. The guy at the dmv didn't make an error.

 

[Deborah13]

There are two possible translations currently in use. Thou shall not murder and thou shall not kill. They mean fundamentally different things. One is correct one is an error.

Easy concept.

That you want to call yellow green has nothing to do with it. One can't simply say that ford is a chevy depending on how you look at it. The guy at the dmv didn't make an error.

The answer is in the original language. In both scriptures and others, kill and murder is the same Gk word.

G5407 = phoneuō = kill, murder root word G5406
G5406 = phoneus = a murderer, a homicide root word G5408
G5408 = phonos = murder, slaughter = from the root - From an obsolete primary pheno (to murder)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5406&t=KJV

I did not go back through this thread again to see if someone had already done this. Studying the Bible, just any other writings that are translated from another language may be slightly different. But we have references books, language books, commentaries, and now all these are online for free to help us out.

 

[jasoncran]

what is it Hebrew? the torah was in Hebrew first then translated to koine greek

 

[kevinmaynard]

The answer is in the original language. In both scriptures and others, kill and murder is the same Gk word.

G5407 = phoneuō = kill, murder root word G5406
G5406 = phoneus = a murderer, a homicide root word G5408
G5408 = phonos = murder, slaughter = from the root - From an obsolete primary pheno (to murder)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5406&t=KJV

I did not go back through this thread again to see if someone had already done this. Studying the Bible, just any other writings that are translated from another language may be slightly different. But we have references books, language books, commentaries, and now all these are online for free to help us out.

There is a word for both murder and kill in Greek so they would have known the difference. (phoneuo, apokteino) So if the Greek said apokteino it meant kill.

Still the same problem. There is an error somewhere.