[_ Old Earth _] Thread for creatioist 'proofs'

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

I've read a lot of posts that point out how clear the bible is that there was a six day creation about 6000 years ago. It should be easy.

Let's see the biblical, logical or historical proofs you have to back this up.

noble6

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

I've read a lot of posts that point out how clear the bible is that there was a six day creation about 6000 years ago. It should be easy.
Let's see the biblical, logical or historical proofs you have to back this up.

Well, I dont think the Bible says that! It says

Gen1:1 In the begining God created the heavens and earth.

In Genesis 1:2 The earth became Null and Void. (Uninhabitabul)

Gen1:3 - 2:7 Starts a RECREATIVE process
They say a day with God is as a thousand years
The early account of light coming into being, or being seen
Waters being seperated (different liquid or gaseous viscosity's)
the sun, moon and stars becoming visible
Creatures of the sea being formed , Air creatures being formed
Land animals being formed, Non Adamic Man being Formed
All comprise the 1st 6 days of re-creation

God rests from his labors on the seventh day

God creates Adam and Eve on the 8th Day and places them in the garden

On the 9th day there cast out of Eden

------------------------------------------------
If you count back from the year 4000 BC a 1000 yrs for each of the 8 days your at about 12000 BC the end of the last ice age. Basically the dawn of modern man.

What happened and how long Gen 1:1 and 1: 2 lasted cannot be determined exactly.

Gen1:1 was the first earth age, the millenium soon to come will be the 3rd

Its also important to note that some Hebrews schalors say that there are 7 earth ages, Somewhere i used to know, (but its late.) But, anyways that if you count back from our age to the begining of the 1st one it lines up time wise with the Big Bang. 15 billion years i think. and 1 of the ages corresponds to when the earth was formed some 4 or 5 billion yrs ago.
Times for an age were calculated and then counted forward or back
Ill have to get bac to u on that 1

 

[Solo]

I wonder why we have a seven day per week time frame in which we manage our affairs, and man has counted time as such from day one. Also the Hebrew word Yom is a literal 24 hour period of time translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The years throughout the generations from Adam to today add up to around 6000 years old. The heavens and earth and all life were created in 6 literal days according to Genesis 1, and on the 7th day God rested. This pattern was created for man as recorded in Exodus 20:11.

The scripture in 2 Peter 3:8 God tells us that he is not governed by time as we are. One day to him is as one thousand years, and one thousand years is as one day. God transcends time because he created time for man in Genesis 1.

Death did not exist until Adam's sin. There would be no death of any animals until after Adam's sin; therefore the entire theory of an old earth is smoke and mirrors. It is easy to deceive unbelievers. Satan has done so since the beginning, and he will continue to do so until the end of the age. It doesn't take much common sense to see that unbelievers have long followed the lies of the enemy right into the ditch; only those that have their eyes on Jesus Christ will overcome the condemnation stored up for the unbelieving.

 

[WillyGilligan]

Did Adam eat? I ask because eating would require there to be death, which you say didn't exist before the Fall.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I wonder why we have a seven day per week time frame in which we manage our affairs, and man has counted time as such from day one.

Are you trying to imply that a 7 day week is somehow "natural". Has it ever occured to you that we have a 7 day week is an invention of man. Scintifically, wednesday is no different the tuesday. Lets not forget that the days of the week are named after pagan gods.

Perhaps we should rename them after the deciples.
Instead of Monday Tuesday Wednesday... we could have Matthewday, Markday, Lukeday, Johnday, Peterday, ... Then people would say "thank God it's Paulday" instead of "thank God it's Friday"

 

[cubedbee]

I wonder why we have a seven day per week time frame in which we manage our affairs, and man has counted time as such from day one.

I wonder where you would get such an impression that men have always used a 7 day weeks. The ancient Aztecs had 20 day weeks, the ancient Egyptians had 10 day weeks, the Romans used a 8 day week for centuries before the Caesars changed it and in fact was used alongside the 7 day week until Emperor Constantine.

Also the Hebrew word Yom is a literal 24 hour period of time

False again. Yom sometimes means a 24 hour day, but it also sometimes does not. Strong’s Hebrew dictionary says “from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term),â€Â

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Death did not exist until Adam's sin.

Except for the plants and the microorganisms which must necessarily die in order for any animal to live? Oh, but that death doesn’t count, right?

There would be no death of any animals until after Adam's sin; therefore the entire theory of an old earth is smoke and mirrors.

Thing is, animals did die before Adam’s sin, Adam’s sin didn’t bring physical death, it brought spiritual death.

It is easy to deceive unbelievers. Satan has done so since the beginning, and he will continue to do so until the end of the age.

It’s also easy to deceive believers with false doctrines that take away from the Truth of God, something else Satan has been doing since the beginning

 

[Drew]

Did Adam eat? I ask because eating would require there to be death, which you say didn't exist before the Fall.

Excellent point. Let us see if the YECers actually answer respond.

 

[Solo]

Did Adam eat? I ask because eating would require there to be death, which you say didn't exist before the Fall.

Excellent point. Let us see if the YECers actually answer respond.

Man and animals ate the plants and fruits that replenished the earth. The first death came at the hands of God to clothe Adam and Eve with the skins of animals. Adam and Eve covered themselves with leaves, for they did not know about killing animals for any reason.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Genesis 1:29-30

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Genesis 3:7

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:roll:

 

[Drew]

Did Adam eat? I ask because eating would require there to be death, which you say didn't exist before the Fall.

Excellent point. Let us see if the YECers actually answer respond.

Man and animals ate the plants and fruits that replenished the earth. The first death came at the hands of God to clothe Adam and Eve with the skins of animals. Adam and Eve covered themselves with leaves, for they did not know about killing animals for any reason.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Genesis 1:29-30

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Genesis 3:7

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

Is this really an answer? In an earlier post, you stated "Death did not exist until Adam's sin". Two questions come to mind and I would please ask that you directly respond to each one.

1. In Genesis 1 we have: Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundâ€â€everything that has the breath of life in itâ€â€I give every green plant for food." Now it seems clear to me that to eat a plant is to cause the death of a plant. This text, if I am not mistaken represents God's intent for man prior to the fall - He gives man plants for food. Question: How could death first occur after the fall if God, before the fall, instructs man to eat plants, an action that would necessarily introduce death into the world?

2. Apart from the above instruction delivered by God, it seems reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve would have needed to eat plants before the fall in order to survive. This, of course, would introduce death into the world. Question: Did Adam and Eve eat anything prior to the fall and if so, how does that not invalidate your claim that "death did not exist until Adam's sin".

 

[Solo]

Did Adam eat? I ask because eating would require there to be death, which you say didn't exist before the Fall.

Excellent point. Let us see if the YECers actually answer respond.

Man and animals ate the plants and fruits that replenished the earth. The first death came at the hands of God to clothe Adam and Eve with the skins of animals. Adam and Eve covered themselves with leaves, for they did not know about killing animals for any reason.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Genesis 1:29-30

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Genesis 3:7

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

Is this really an answer? In an earlier post, you stated "Death did not exist until Adam's sin". Two questions come to mind and I would please ask that you directly respond to each one.

1. In Genesis 1 we have: Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundâ€â€everything that has the breath of life in itâ€â€I give every green plant for food." Now it seems clear to me that to eat a plant is to cause the death of a plant. This text, if I am not mistaken represents God's intent for man prior to the fall - He gives man plants for food. Question: How could death first occur after the fall if God, before the fall, instructs man to eat plants, an action that would necessarily introduce death into the world?

2. Apart from the above instruction delivered by God, it seems reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve would have needed to eat plants before the fall in order to survive. This, of course, would introduce death into the world. Question: Did Adam and Eve eat anything prior to the fall and if so, how does that not invalidate your claim that "death did not exist until Adam's sin".

What plants do you know of that die when you eat the fruits and nuts of them?

Adam and Eve and all animals ate plants, but if you will look, it did not say that plants would eat anything. It looks like God has a different understanding of his creation than you do.

The Bible says that Death reigned from Adam on; and it says that through one man, sin entered into the world; and it says that the earth groans for the day of redemption.

Why do you suppose that this old earth and heavens will have to be destroyed and a new heaven and earth created. You can bet that God will create the heavens and earth again, probably in only one day.

 

[peace4all]

so all adam and eve ate were fruits and nuts?

No potatoes, radishes vegetables? no celery? no lettuce? no carrots?

 

[armed2010]

I can't imagine how much bacteria would build up in a world of no death.

 

[Solo]

It also hadn't rained on the earth until the flood of Noah's time.

 

[Drew]

What plants do you know of that die when you eat the fruits and nuts of them?

That is a very nice try, I have to admit (I am not being sarcastic). Even if you can make the case that eating a fruit or a nut does not cause the death of some living thing, you still need to deal with statements like: "I have given every green herb for meat". This does not limit food to "fruits and nuts" but to entire plants (every green herb). When a cow eats a single blade of grass, she is causing the death of a living individual organism.

 

[armed2010]

It also hadn't rained on the earth until the flood of Noah's time.

So wait, there was no water cycle? How did plants inland cope with this then?

 

[Solo]

It also hadn't rained on the earth until the flood of Noah's time.

So wait, there was no water cycle? How did plants inland cope with this then?

You'll have to read the Bible and study it for yourself. You don't believe much of anything I say anyway.

Hint: It's in Genesis.

 

[Zero132132]

Adam and Eve had to have eaten animals at one point, because vitamin B-12, or cyanocobalamin can't be produced by either plants or animals. B-12 can only be produced by bacteria, and travels up the food chain only through the eating of bacteria, and other animals. For carnivorous creatures, this is fine. They eat animals. It's chill. Creatures who only eat plants are also eating bacteria on the plants, but this means that living creatures are still dying for their bodily processes to continue.

So Adam and Eve must have, at the very least, consumed bacteria on fruits and nuts to survive, since B-12 deficiency leads to anemia, as well as massive nerve cell death. B-12 is necessary for human life.

At the very least, bacteria died. Death can't have begun with Adam's eating of the apple unless the principles behind chemical reactions changed, something which is both needlessly complex, and generally reguarded as impossible. Too many miracles are required for this lil fable to be true.

 

[Solo]

Adam and Eve had to have eaten animals at one point, because vitamin B-12, or cyanocobalamin can't be produced by either plants or animals. B-12 can only be produced by bacteria, and travels up the food chain only through the eating of bacteria, and other animals. For carnivorous creatures, this is fine. They eat animals. It's chill. Creatures who only eat plants are also eating bacteria on the plants, but this means that living creatures are still dying for their bodily processes to continue.

So Adam and Eve must have, at the very least, consumed bacteria on fruits and nuts to survive, since B-12 deficiency leads to anemia, as well as massive nerve cell death. B-12 is necessary for human life.

At the very least, bacteria died. Death can't have begun with Adam's eating of the apple unless the principles behind chemical reactions changed, something which is both needlessly complex, and generally reguarded as impossible. Too many miracles are required for this lil fable to be true.

Only in the fallen state that we find ourselves in now. Prior to the fall, all of the plants had plenty enough nurishment for Adam and Eve to live for a long, long, time.

When scientists create their time machine, they can run on back and see if their imaginations were all screwed up or if they were close. Until then we all have someone or something to place our faith and trust in.

 

[armed2010]

It also hadn't rained on the earth until the flood of Noah's time.

So wait, there was no water cycle? How did plants inland cope with this then?

You'll have to read the Bible and study it for yourself. You don't believe much of anything I say anyway.

Hint: It's in Genesis.

Its hard to believe things you say when they seem to go against what we observe in real life.