[_ Old Earth _] Thread for creatioist 'proofs'

[Solo]

Looking at Genesis, I'm seeing that light and dark were seperated, but no mention made of the earth whose rotation creates 'day' and 'night'. The sun and moon were created on the fourth day, so this light had no reference point. I also note that we went from 'formless and void' to having to seperate the waters. Where did the waters come from? He didn't make the waters on the first day, He stopped at darkness and light. He didn't make them on the second day, or it wouldn't have started with the seperation of the waters. If nothing not explicitly stated in the Bible happened, where did the waters come from?

God did not need the rotation of the earth to determine the length of time in a day. He established that same timeframe when he placed the "lights" in the heavens to separate night and day, and for seasons of time. Since God created the heavens and the earth, I suspect that he had a pretty good idea as to how to determine the length of time that the earth would be in its sinful condition prior to cleaning it up after six thousand years. The creation of the heavens and the earth in six days with the seventh day being one of rest is the template of time that he gave us to know that we (mankind) would be working on the earth for six thousand years and resting for one thousand years during the reign of Jesus Christ after his return. Peter says that one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. This was a hint to know God's plan.

In the first verse we see that God created the heaven and the earth. I suspect that he created the water at that time, as the holy Spirit move upon the water. I believe that it shows that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all one created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Bible doesn't say a thing about electricity or the creation of it, but I bet that God was involved in that as well. What do you think?

I did not understand creation, or the things of God until I submitted to Him by believing that His Son, Jesus Christ died in my stead for my sins, so that I would never die, but pass into eternity with him. I hope you take advantage of the same opportunity if you haven't already accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

 

[reznwerks]

death

[

I did not understand creation, or the things of God until I submitted to Him by believing that His Son, Jesus Christ died in my stead for my sins, so that I would never die, but pass into eternity with him. I hope you take advantage of the same opportunity if you haven't already accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Did you ever explain how this plan was supposed to work? I mean who demanded the death of Jesus in the first place and how did it satisfy the requirement of his death and our being saved? Why would God demand Jesus(his son) to die for us. Secondly how does his dying save us? OR? Did Satan demand his death for which I can find no evidence for ?

 

[Solo]

Re: death

[

I did not understand creation, or the things of God until I submitted to Him by believing that His Son, Jesus Christ died in my stead for my sins, so that I would never die, but pass into eternity with him. I hope you take advantage of the same opportunity if you haven't already accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Did you ever explain how this plan was supposed to work? I mean who demanded the death of Jesus in the first place and how did it satisfy the requirement of his death and our being saved? Why would God demand Jesus(his son) to die for us. Secondly how does his dying save us? OR? Did Satan demand his death for which I can find no evidence for ?

Reznwerks,

God created man and placed him in a garden where there was a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:8-9

God told the man that he had created that he could eat of all of the trees in the garden except for one; that one was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If the man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

After being deceived by satan through the serpeant, Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and gave the fruit to her husband to eat as well. They both disobeyed God's one commandment to them, and man brought sin into the world which is passed onto all mankind from that point onward. Death entered the creation through Eve's deception and Adams disobedience.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:6

From that point on, death reigned from the sin of one man. Man died spiritually separated from God, and began dying physically becoming mortal. God's justice is manifested in that what he said to man was true, and Adam died spiritually, and would also die physically. The penalty of sin is death, and all mankind was condemned because of the sin brought into the world by Adam. The only salvation that mankind could hope for would be that another pay the penalty of sin, whereby one who had not sinned, would die instead of all mankind. God himself entered earth as the Son of man through the virgin Mary whereby he had not the sin of Adam. He was sinless, and would die for all mankind's sin, conquering death and sin.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

Jesus was crucified dead and laid in the tomb. He resurrected alive and defeated death for all mankind who accepts his payment for the sin of Adam. As through one man, Adam, sin and death entered into the world, eternal life was gained for the lost by one man, Jesus.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence F20 of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:17-19

Jesus taught that in order for men to be brought to life once he paid the price for sin, they would have to be born again. Not only would man have to be born of the flesh (physical birth), but he would have to be born of the Spirit (spiritual birth) in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:3-21

God's righteous justice determined that the wages of sin is death as he told Adam, and since Adam sinned and brought death to all generations after, a penalty would have to be paid by one without sin, in order to redeem those that are condemned. Jesus died to pay the price of God's penalty of sin for all mankind that becomes born again. Man is born the first time into sin, but once he is born again of the Spirit of God, he is redeemed for eternity. A new creature is created at the born again process whereby the inward man (spirit) is born anew, and at the death of the mortal and corruptible physical body that new creature will return to God the creator awaiting the new physical body. This new body will be delivered when Jesus returns for the believers who have died and the believers who are alive.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Those that are alive at the coming of Jesus will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, as those that are resurrected will be. The corrupt will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

My prayer is that you will be with those of us who have been born again at the return of the Lord of Lords, and King of Kings.

May God bless you,

Michael

PS I did not make it clear that one or another will pay the penalty of death for sin of each of us. Jesus will pay the penalty for all who have been born again, and those that have rejected Jesus' payment will pay the penalty with their own lives for eternity.

 

[ArtGuy]

The author of creation determined what time is and how much time to make a day. That time was created prior establishing the "lights" in the heavens to split the day from the night. Light and darkness existed from the first day when God created light. He then separated the light from the darkness, and at this time he created time whereby the cycle of light and darkness established the time called day. On the fourth day God created the "lights" in the heavens to rule over the night and the day, and the evening and morning still equals one day; no more, no less.

Read Genesis 1 very carefully.

Wait, I'm confused, now. I've always accepted Creationism as the mechanism by which our Lord created all of existence, but the whole light thing has thrown me off.

So in the beginning, there was light and dark. The light presumably came from nowhere, and the dark also came from nowhere, since there was nothing else in existence to cast light or shadow. So they existed in a sort of ether. I imagine the first day was probably just a bright light, which then faded into darkness, and then became bright again, right?

Then he separated the waters from the sky. The only way I can think of to interpret this is to imagine God creating a giant sphere of water to be the Earth.

Then we get land and plants and critters and such.

Then God creates the sun and stars and moon. Since the sun is currently our only real source of natural light, does this mean that God turned off the "God-light" from the first day, and just left us with the sun?

Also, was the earth rotating and revolving about the point in the heavens where the sun would eventually be from the beginning, or was it just standing in place until there was a sun?

Any people better versed in Creation science want to help me with some of these questions?

 

[Grengor]

You'd do better to stick to creationism for those questions and stop using the oxymoron creation science. It's an utter denial of science, and is theology. Just keep things were they belong, k?

 

[ArtGuy]

You'd do better to stick to creationism for those questions and stop using the oxymoron creation science. It's an utter denial of science, and is theology. Just keep things were they belong, k?

Very well, what's the creationist answer to those questions?

 

[Grengor]

Ignore that it was ever said.

 

[Oran_Taran]

You'd do better to stick to creationism for those questions and stop using the oxymoron creation science. It's an utter denial of science, and is theology. Just keep things were they belong, k?

I agree.
I skimmed through the thread and I didn't see any science in it... just biblical verses.

 

[ArtGuy]

Ignore that it was ever said.

That may be the response of those who are afraid to look critically at their own beliefs for fear of finding something they feel unequipped to deal with, but I hardly think all of us creationists are so disingenuous. That's a little like us saying that all evolutionists are godless liars out to hoodwink humanity.

So, would anyone like to answer my questions, please?

 

[reznwerks]

Re: death

[

I did not understand creation, or the things of God until I submitted to Him by believing that His Son, Jesus Christ died in my stead for my sins, so that I would never die, but pass into eternity with him. I hope you take advantage of the same opportunity if you haven't already accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Did you ever explain how this plan was supposed to work? I mean who demanded the death of Jesus in the first place and how did it satisfy the requirement of his death and our being saved? Why would God demand Jesus(his son) to die for us. Secondly how does his dying save us? OR? Did Satan demand his death for which I can find no evidence for ?

Reznwerks,

God created man and placed him in a garden where there was a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Why did God create evil?

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:8-9
Why would God put his creation in jeopardy by exposing them to evil? Would you let your kids play on a busy street without supervision?

God told the man that he had created that he could eat of all of the trees in the garden except for one; that one was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If the man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die.
Why would God put temptation in front of his creation?

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17
Didn't God have other things to do besides knowingly put his creation on a situation of temptation?
After being deceived by satan through the serpeant, Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and gave the fruit to her husband to eat as well. They both disobeyed God's one commandment to them, and man brought sin into the world which is passed onto all mankind from that point onward. Death entered the creation through Eve's deception and Adams disobedience.
You never mentioned if Eve was ever instructed on eating the forbidden fruit. Could it be that Eve never knew of the penalty? Maybe she didn't understand. After all God knew they were stupid and he wanted to keep them that way. Why else would he forbid them to eat of the tree that would make them wise.(smart)

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:6
At this point she should have died and not been able to give it to Adam. Clearly she knew she did not die and then shared her good fortune.You can argue that she died spiritually but this again clearly hints that she did not understand the penalty if in fact she ever really instructed.

From that point on, death reigned from the sin of one man. Man died spiritually separated from God, and began dying physically becoming mortal. God's justice is manifested in that what he said to man was true, and Adam died spiritually, and would also die physically. The penalty of sin is death, and all mankind was condemned because of the sin brought into the world by Adam. The only salvation that mankind could hope for would be that another pay the penalty of sin, whereby one who had not sinned, would die instead of all mankind. God himself entered earth as the Son of man through the virgin Mary whereby he had not the sin of Adam. He was sinless, and would die for all mankind's sin, conquering death and sin.
This still doesn't explain WHO demanded the payment. How does God killing himself or his son satisfy any debt. If the debt was owed to God he simply could have forgiven himself. As I said when you go to the store the owner wants payment for what you take. So man didn't take anything that needed to be paid back. Clearly man did not provide payment for anything. God is actually paying himself back for what he did and to make a long story short just didn't have to do it.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23
This was written a long time after Genesis.

Jesus was crucified dead and laid in the tomb. He resurrected alive and defeated death for all mankind who accepts his payment for the sin of Adam. As through one man, Adam, sin and death entered into the world, eternal life was gained for the lost by one man, Jesus.
If Jesus was human he has original sin. If Jesus mother was human she cannot restrict the passing of her sin on regardless of the father whether he be Joseph of God.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence F20 of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:17-19
Romans was written by Paul who never met Jesus.


PS I did not make it clear that one or another will pay the penalty of death for sin of each of us. Jesus will pay the penalty for all who have been born again, and those that have rejected Jesus' payment will pay the penalty with their own lives for eternity.
Sorry but I still don't understand WHO demanded the payment of the death of Jesus as I explained. Did God demand that Jesus be crucified and how does this wipe away mans "original sin". To put it bluntly God made the game and the rules and has all the pieces. There is no other explanation. Man did not take anything so nothing is needed by man to pay back. Man has nothing to pay back as well. So God created this needed payment which man does not have and agreed to pay mans debt with his son. So God just paid himself back in a nutshell. Now if thats what he did fine but I don't understand the reasoning for why he did it. He is God and could have spared everyone a whole lot of grief by doing something else.

 

[Solo]

Re: death

[

I did not understand creation, or the things of God until I submitted to Him by believing that His Son, Jesus Christ died in my stead for my sins, so that I would never die, but pass into eternity with him. I hope you take advantage of the same opportunity if you haven't already accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Did you ever explain how this plan was supposed to work? I mean who demanded the death of Jesus in the first place and how did it satisfy the requirement of his death and our being saved? Why would God demand Jesus(his son) to die for us. Secondly how does his dying save us? OR? Did Satan demand his death for which I can find no evidence for ?

Reznwerks,

God created man and placed him in a garden where there was a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Why did God create evil?
Ask him.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:8-9
Why would God put his creation in jeopardy by exposing them to evil? Would you let your kids play on a busy street without supervision?
God's ways are higher than man's ways, and his thoughts are higher than man's thoughts. If I was in control of my childrens eternal life, their short temporary life on earth would be nothing in the scheme of things. How much can you control of whether you live or die today?

God told the man that he had created that he could eat of all of the trees in the garden except for one; that one was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If the man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die.
Why would God put temptation in front of his creation?
God's purpose could have been for the powers and principalities in the spiritual realm, whereby through a ball of clay he created one who would sit in his place as King of Kings and Lord of Lords just as satan wanted. But again you should get a relationship with him so that you can ask him the questions that come to your mind.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17
Didn't God have other things to do besides knowingly put his creation on a situation of temptation?
It seems to me that God's plan with mankind was pretty high on the list, and the salvation which we who believe will enjoy was in place before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

After being deceived by satan through the serpeant, Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and gave the fruit to her husband to eat as well. They both disobeyed God's one commandment to them, and man brought sin into the world which is passed onto all mankind from that point onward. Death entered the creation through Eve's deception and Adams disobedience.
You never mentioned if Eve was ever instructed on eating the forbidden fruit. Could it be that Eve never knew of the penalty? Maybe she didn't understand. After all God knew they were stupid and he wanted to keep them that way. Why else would he forbid them to eat of the tree that would make them wise.(smart)
Adam and Eve were more intelligent than you. They were innocent as well, which you are not. Eve had not sinned yet and told the serpeant that God had said not to eat of that tree, so she knew. If you were as smart as Adam and Eve, you wouldn't have to ask such goofy questions. No offense intended.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:6
At this point she should have died and not been able to give it to Adam. Clearly she knew she did not die and then shared her good fortune.You can argue that she died spiritually but this again clearly hints that she did not understand the penalty if in fact she ever really instructed.
She died a spiritual death, and her body began to die beginning that day. I know that you do not understand the separation that death brings about, and your understanding of the spiritual is lacking, but all of the decendents of Adam and Eve are born dead spiritually. Until God gives them the birth of the Spirit as Jesus teaches in John 3, they all are condemned.

From that point on, death reigned from the sin of one man. Man died spiritually separated from God, and began dying physically becoming mortal. God's justice is manifested in that what he said to man was true, and Adam died spiritually, and would also die physically. The penalty of sin is death, and all mankind was condemned because of the sin brought into the world by Adam. The only salvation that mankind could hope for would be that another pay the penalty of sin, whereby one who had not sinned, would die instead of all mankind. God himself entered earth as the Son of man through the virgin Mary whereby he had not the sin of Adam. He was sinless, and would die for all mankind's sin, conquering death and sin.
This still doesn't explain WHO demanded the payment. How does God killing himself or his son satisfy any debt. If the debt was owed to God he simply could have forgiven himself. As I said when you go to the store the owner wants payment for what you take. So man didn't take anything that needed to be paid back. Clearly man did not provide payment for anything. God is actually paying himself back for what he did and to make a long story short just didn't have to do it.
The payment of sin is death. Period. Each one born a sinner will make that payment that was placed on them from Adam's disobedience. Either they will pay the penalty themselves, or Jesus will have paid it for them. Simple.


22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23
This was written a long time after Genesis.
And the Word of God continues from the beginning to the ending.

Jesus was crucified dead and laid in the tomb. He resurrected alive and defeated death for all mankind who accepts his payment for the sin of Adam. As through one man, Adam, sin and death entered into the world, eternal life was gained for the lost by one man, Jesus.
If Jesus was human he has original sin. If Jesus mother was human she cannot restrict the passing of her sin on regardless of the father whether he be Joseph of God.
You have misunderstood the workings of God. Sin has passed down through the generations from Adam, not through Eve. That is why God has made different roles for men and women, and it just pisses the devil off.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence F20 of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:17-19
Romans was written by Paul who never met Jesus.
Paul met Jesus face to face on the road to Damascus.


PS I did not make it clear that one or another will pay the penalty of death for sin of each of us. Jesus will pay the penalty for all who have been born again, and those that have rejected Jesus' payment will pay the penalty with their own lives for eternity.
Sorry but I still don't understand WHO demanded the payment of the death of Jesus as I explained. Did God demand that Jesus be crucified and how does this wipe away mans "original sin". To put it bluntly God made the game and the rules and has all the pieces. There is no other explanation. Man did not take anything so nothing is needed by man to pay back. Man has nothing to pay back as well. So God created this needed payment which man does not have and agreed to pay mans debt with his son. So God just paid himself back in a nutshell. Now if thats what he did fine but I don't understand the reasoning for why he did it. He is God and could have spared everyone a whole lot of grief by doing something else.
Jesus did not need to die because he was sinless. Man disobeyed God and would die because of the penalty of sin. The payment to redeem man from death was paid by one who was not under the penalty of sin. This payment paid by Jesus Christ by his death on the cross was in the works prior to the creation of heaven and earth. Before the foundation of the heavens and the earth, Jesus was going to pay the penalty for sin.

 

[Drew]

This whole argument that evolution cannot be squared with the Bible because "nothing died before Adam's fall" has been used at least twice in different threads. In both cases, clear and substantive arguments (in my view) were made to the effect that this claim is both Biblically problematic (e.g. in Genesis 1, where God gives plants to man for food prior to the fall) and otherwise problematic from a common sense perspective (what the heck did Adam and Eve eat before the fall that would not cause death of some organisms?). In both cases, these objections were clearly not addressed successfully (despite some rather inventive efforts, mind you).

At the risk of sounding harsh and pressing the point, will you guys not admit that you simply cannot make this case stick? Do you not think you need to retract a claim that simply does not work?

By making this challenge I am going out on a limb. Feel free to come down on me like a buzzard on a gut wagon if you can actually make a case that the "no death before the fall" is a workable position.

Still waiting. Absence of a response is rather substantial evidence of the weakness of the "no death before the fall" position.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: death

[
The payment of sin is death. Period. Each one born a sinner will make that payment that was placed on them from Adam's disobedience. Either they will pay the penalty themselves, or Jesus will have paid it for them. Simple.

You still didn't answer my question. WHO is being paid. I understand the claim that Jesus paid the price but to WHOM? Was it God or Satan?If GOd demanded the death of Jesus then why would he pay the debt which was supposedly on mans head for the debt that God created. If Satan demanded the death of Jesus please show scriptural evidence.

 

[ArtGuy]

Re: death

You still didn't answer my question. WHO is being paid. I understand the claim that Jesus paid the price but to WHOM? Was it God or Satan?If GOd demanded the death of Jesus then why would he pay the debt which was supposedly on mans head for the debt that God created. If Satan demanded the death of Jesus please show scriptural evidence.

You're correct in that God makes the rules. Technically, everything you're saying about the needlessness of the whole Jesus affair is true. God could have just wiped the slate clean and let us all in. He could have come up with a less complicated scheme for allowing us salvation. But he chose not to. Asking why is very reasonable.

One could simply lob out the "God works in mysterious ways" boiler plate, but while it's certainly true that He does, that seems like a cop out. While I certainly don't offer the following explanation as gospel, so to speak, it makes sense to me:

God wanted something tangible to offer man. He wanted something concrete that people could point to as evidence of His love. Sending an incarnation of Himself to Earth to undergo all the trials and tribulations of human life, and then ultimately succumbing to torture and humilation and death, was His way of showing that He was with us. He's not just some abstract being lounging around the heavens judging us - He's been there. He's experienced what we experience. It gives us something to look at and latch onto. It was, in essence, a giant ad campaign for God.

Frankly, I think it puts the 1984 Macintosh ad to shame.

 

[Solo]

Re: death

[
The payment of sin is death. Period. Each one born a sinner will make that payment that was placed on them from Adam's disobedience. Either they will pay the penalty themselves, or Jesus will have paid it for them. Simple.

You still didn't answer my question. WHO is being paid. I understand the claim that Jesus paid the price but to WHOM? Was it God or Satan?If GOd demanded the death of Jesus then why would he pay the debt which was supposedly on mans head for the debt that God created. If Satan demanded the death of Jesus please show scriptural evidence.

God said that if Adam disobeyed him, he would die. Since Adam disobeyed (sinned) God, he would die both spiritually and physically. In order for God to save mankind was to send a sinless individual to pay the price for sin (death), and to then be resurrected. All men can look forward to the same resurrection by being born again of God.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: death

You still didn't answer my question. WHO is being paid. I understand the claim that Jesus paid the price but to WHOM? Was it God or Satan?If GOd demanded the death of Jesus then why would he pay the debt which was supposedly on mans head for the debt that God created. If Satan demanded the death of Jesus please show scriptural evidence.

You're correct in that God makes the rules. Technically, everything you're saying about the needlessness of the whole Jesus affair is true. God could have just wiped the slate clean and let us all in. He could have come up with a less complicated scheme for allowing us salvation. But he chose not to. Asking why is very reasonable.

Thank you for your honesty. Now what does this say about the claim that God is all knowing , all powerful , and all loving?The analogy as I see it goes like this. God wanted us to have a new car ( if we behaved and worked hard) We did not. So God really wants us to have new car but we cannot afford it. So God feels sorry for us and is paying for our new car. As payment he is sacraficing his son to himself. So I guess God demanded the death of Jesus. You are right it doesn't make any sense but he is God.

 

[Solo]

All unbelievers want to blame God for their inadequate ability to become saints, because they cannot accept the responsibility of their condemnation being their own fault. They immediately take up the victim philosophy and blame the only one that will love and save them. End of the story is many fail.

 

[ArtGuy]

Re: death

You're correct in that God makes the rules. Technically, everything you're saying about the needlessness of the whole Jesus affair is true. God could have just wiped the slate clean and let us all in. He could have come up with a less complicated scheme for allowing us salvation. But he chose not to. Asking why is very reasonable.

Thank you for your honesty. Now what does this say about the claim that God is all knowing , all powerful , and all loving?

Not much, really. I brought a child into this world knowing full well that she would make mistakes. I know that she will, at times, disappoint me, lie to me, disrespect me, and say hurtful things to me. She'll do this because every child does this. So when she does these things, does that make me less wise? No. When I punish her for these things, does it make me less loving? No.

God chose a slightly more convoluted means than strictly necessary for our salvation. I'm sure He had His reasons, even if we don't know for certain what they are. Similarly, I have my reasons for setting certain rules and assigning punishments for certain transgressions, even if my child doesn't understand them. It doesn't make me random or spiteful or illogical, it just means that my child is too young and immature to understand my actions.

 

[Guest]

That was a LOT of reading just to get to this point in the thread. :o

You have misunderstood the workings of God. Sin has passed down through the generations from Adam, not through Eve. That is why God has made different roles for men and women, and it just pisses the devil off.

I've heard this idea before and it confused me then. How is it that, just because Mary was a woman, that "the sin nature" wasn't passed on? Is it really that one little sperm that causes all the trouble? And since we apparently ALL came from Adam, that makes Mary, as well, from "the generations from Adam". This her blood (that was being passed from mother to baby through the umbilical cord) was in Jesus too.


As a side note, . . . . .I find it curious that Solo would use the worldly usage of the word, "pisses", . . . . . . as a Moderator of this Christian board. :-?

 

[Solo]

That was a LOT of reading just to get to this point in the thread. :o

You have misunderstood the workings of God. Sin has passed down through the generations from Adam, not through Eve. That is why God has made different roles for men and women, and it just pisses the devil off.

I've heard this idea before and it confused me then. How is it that, just because Mary was a woman, that "the sin nature" wasn't passed on? Is it really that one little sperm that causes all the trouble? And since we apparently ALL came from Adam, that makes Mary, as well, from "the generations from Adam". This her blood (that was being passed from mother to baby through the umbilical cord) was in Jesus too.


As a side note, . . . . .I find it curious that Solo would use the worldly usage of the word, "pisses", . . . . . . as a Moderator of this Christian board. :-?

Do you attend an Assemblies of God Church? How old are you? Does it surprise you that the word "pisseth" is in the Bible a few times. It is an old English word that means to urinate. If it offends you, then you probably are much more offended that some people would rather subject the savior to ridicule by claiming that he was sinner. Also, you should talk with your pastor about how the sin of Adam passed onto to all generations. Let me know what you find out. I am settled with the truth, and hope that you get there also. Thanks for the post.