[_ Old Earth _] Thread for creatioist 'proofs'

[cubedbee]

It also hadn't rained on the earth until the flood of Noah's time.

So wait, there was no water cycle? How did plants inland cope with this then?

You'll have to read the Bible and study it for yourself. You don't believe much of anything I say anyway.

Hint: It's in Genesis.

Its hard to believe things you say when they seem to go against what we observe in real life.

You shouldn't believe the things he says, because they go against what we observe in real life. They also go against the Bible, taken as a whole and not misinterpreted by literalistically reading select passages.

 

[Drew]

This whole argument that evolution cannot be squared with the Bible because "nothing died before Adam's fall" has been used at least twice in different threads. In both cases, clear and substantive arguments (in my view) were made to the effect that this claim is both Biblically problematic (e.g. in Genesis 1, where God gives plants to man for food prior to the fall) and otherwise problematic from a common sense perspective (what the heck did Adam and Eve eat before the fall that would not cause death of some organisms?). In both cases, these objections were clearly not addressed successfully (despite some rather inventive efforts, mind you).

At the risk of sounding harsh and pressing the point, will you guys not admit that you simply cannot make this case stick? Do you not think you need to retract a claim that simply does not work?

By making this challenge I am going out on a limb. Feel free to come down on me like a buzzard on a gut wagon if you can actually make a case that the "no death before the fall" is a workable position.

 

[pasta911]

I wonder why we have a seven day per week time frame in which we manage our affairs, and man has counted time as such from day one.

Are you trying to imply that a 7 day week is somehow "natural". Has it ever occured to you that we have a 7 day week is an invention of man. Scintifically, wednesday is no different the tuesday. Lets not forget that the days of the week are named after pagan gods.

Perhaps we should rename them after the deciples.
Instead of Monday Tuesday Wednesday... we could have Matthewday, Markday, Lukeday, Johnday, Peterday, ... Then people would say "thank God it's Paulday" instead of "thank God it's Friday"

: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
OMG that was too funny thanks for the laugh

Keep it up :

 

[hansbrix]

Hi, Solo. You seem to have missed this part of cubedbee's post. Please to respond to it?

Thanks.

I wonder why we have a seven day per week time frame in which we manage our affairs, and man has counted time as such from day one.

I wonder where you would get such an impression that men have always used a 7 day weeks. The ancient Aztecs had 20 day weeks, the ancient Egyptians had 10 day weeks, the Romans used a 8 day week for centuries before the Caesars changed it and in fact was used alongside the 7 day week until Emperor Constantine.

Also the Hebrew word Yom is a literal 24 hour period of time

False again. Yom sometimes means a 24 hour day, but it also sometimes does not. Strong’s Hebrew dictionary says “from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term),â€Â

[quote:1ffe8]
Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.[/quote:1ffe8]

 

[reznwerks]

really

It also hadn't rained on the earth until the flood of Noah's time.

I guess that the laws of nature hadn't been voted on.Evaporation of water was an invention to be discovered later. Somehow water remained in liquid form neither condensing or evaporating. Therefor spontaneous forrest fires never happened because if they did occur natural showers and thunderstorms would not be available to put them out. Secondly fires could not occur because then the water vapor would saturate the air. Could you tell us where we could read more about such phenomenon.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

carrots have a hard time surviving the being eaten process.

 

[Wordsmyth]

carrots have a hard time surviving the being eaten process.

Actually, carrots go to Carrot Heaven, where they're free from Bugs Bunny's appetite. :angel: :-D

 

[jwu]

Only in the fallen state that we find ourselves in now. Prior to the fall, all of the plants had plenty enough nurishment for Adam and Eve to live for a long, long, time.

Isn't that a bit of a self-contradiction?

It supposedly didn't rain before Noah because the Bible doesn't state that it did, and because it has that rainbow reference (which, even if it had happened literally, can be explained by other ways too).


At the same time, the Bible does not state that the composition of plants changed though, so if the Bible not stating things count as evidence for them not happening in case of rain, why doesn't the same apply here?

 

[noblej6]

Hi FOrum,

Great response here.

Concerning this no death before the fall, which is it? Did Adam look like homo whomeverit whos skull is sloped and whos back in hunched over or are those type skeletnns from before ADAM? Or do scientists make those skeletons up from plaster of paris?

This has been touched on but what is used to determine that the day 1 was a literal 24 hours? I mean what caused the morning and evening of the first day?
Did I miss the explanation for that?

noble6

 

[cubedbee]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

 

[Solo]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

 

[cubedbee]

While we're exploring how yom always gets translated as a literal 24 hour period, please explain why Genesis 1:31-2:1 says that God finished creating the heavens and earth after 6 days, while Genesis 2:4 it said he made the heavens and the earth in 1 day. Not very long to read before we find an error with the obviously errant Bible. At least errant the way you would have us read it.

 

[cubedbee]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

No, God chose how long he was going to take to make the planets, and it was billions of years. Nobody dictated to him this time and there's nothing we can do to change it. We have to accept that fact of what God did.

 

[Solo]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

No, God chose how long he was going to take to make the planets, and it was billions of years. Nobody dictated to him this time and there's nothing we can do to change it. We have to accept that fact of what God did.

It's too bad that you believe in God but you deny His Word and His power. You will know one day that the billion year lie does not align with God's plan for you and I and all of creation. The lie of evolution and the hopes of a billion year time period for the same can never be proven. Their is more evidence against the old earth and evolution than there is for them. You just read the wrong texts that the humanists have shoved down your throat.

 

[cubedbee]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

No, God chose how long he was going to take to make the planets, and it was billions of years. Nobody dictated to him this time and there's nothing we can do to change it. We have to accept that fact of what God did.

It's too bad that you believe in God but you deny His Word and His power. You will know one day that the billion year lie does not align with God's plan for you and I and all of creation. The lie of evolution and the hopes of a billion year time period for the same can never be proven. Their is more evidence against the old earth and evolution than there is for them. You just read the wrong texts that the humanists have shoved down your throat.

It's too bad that you believe in God but you deny His Creation and His Power. You will know one day that 6,000 years does not align with God's plan for you and I and all of creation. The lie of YEC and the hopes of a 6,000 year time period for the same has been disproven. There is absolutely incontrovertible evidence written across God's Creatioon for all to see that the Universe is ancient, there is conclusively historic and scientific evidence to prove the Universe is older than 6,000 years old. You are reading the Bible in the wrong way and trying to shove your misinterpretation down the throats of others. God's Word doesn't contradict God's Creation as you would have others believe.

 

[Solo]

[quote="cubedbee":b9f3a]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

No, God chose how long he was going to take to make the planets, and it was billions of years. Nobody dictated to him this time and there's nothing we can do to change it. We have to accept that fact of what God did.

It's too bad that you believe in God but you deny His Word and His power. You will know one day that the billion year lie does not align with God's plan for you and I and all of creation. The lie of evolution and the hopes of a billion year time period for the same can never be proven. Their is more evidence against the old earth and evolution than there is for them. You just read the wrong texts that the humanists have shoved down your throat.

It's too bad that you believe in God but you deny His Creation and His Power. You will know one day that 6,000 years does not align with God's plan for you and I and all of creation. The lie of YEC and the hopes of a 6,000 year time period for the same has been disproven. There is absolutely incontrovertible evidence written across God's Creatioon for all to see that the Universe is ancient, there is conclusively historic and scientific evidence to prove the Universe is older than 6,000 years old. You are reading the Bible in the wrong way and trying to shove your misinterpretation down the throats of others. God's Word doesn't contradict God's Creation as you would have others believe.[/quote:b9f3a]

God is much more clear on what a day is than the evolutionists theories. God said that one day is a morning and an evening. He said that it took him six days to create the heavens and earth and all life. It seems that you are mixed up on His Word, not I.

How long will God take to create the New heavens and New earth after Jesus has completed his 1000 year reign after his return?

What did God create the earth and planets out of? Was there any matter at all prior to God's creation?

Did God create all that is out of nothing?

 

[WillyGilligan]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

Cupedbee isn't talking about who created time. What they mean is that the words used to denote time in Genesis are based on a human measurement of time. That measurement involves the rising and setting of the sun, so what does yom mean in the absense of a sun? It has nothing to do with time and everything to do with human language and thought. How does a literal interpretation of yom to mean 24 hours stack against the fact that the sun wasn't there to give yom a sunset to sunset reference?

 

[cubedbee]

God is much more clear on what a day is than the evolutionists theories. God said that one day is a morning and an evening. He said that it took him six days to create the heavens and earth and all life. It seems that you are mixed up on His Word, not I.

I have addressed why it is impossible for yom to mean a literal 24 hours, just by looking at the text alone and using logic. Everyone else can see how you are mistaken, I don't know why you can't.

How long will God take to create the New heavens and New earth after Jesus has completed his 1000 year reign after his return?

However long he wants. I'm no prophet.

What did God create the earth and planets out of?

Matter ejected from a supernova from a star that was formed after matter from the Big Bang cooled enough to coalesce and for gravitational collapse to trigger fusion.

Was there any matter at all prior to God's creation?

No, prior to the moment of God's first creation, the Big Bang, there was nothing but God. Well, in our universe at least. I don't presume to claim I know that we're unique and that God hasn't created other universes.

Did God create all that is out of nothing?

Yes, he did, and he left us enormous amounts of detailed evidence describing how he did it. It's really awe inspiring stuff once you learn about it. You should stop literalistically misinterpreting a spiritual passage to learn about your science, and instead use your God given senses and observe the Creation, the Creation which proclaims God's power.

 

[Solo]

Translated day from Genesis 1 containing a morning and an evening, just exactly as Genesis 1 explains.

The literal words “evening†and “morning†require a sun and our planet orbiting that sun to have a literal meaning. The sun did not exist during the first couple days of creation, so it is clear that the morning and evening referred to our figurative, just as the Yom referred to is.

Yes, I really want to get an answer to this. Without the sun and moon, exactly what did it mean to have an evening and a morning, and how long was a day? This verse is literal right? The Hebrews use of yom, the literal 1 day version, is measured from sunset to sunset. So, how did the two sunsets on the first day happen and how many far apart were they? Because we're literally using man's reckoning of time right? Yom can't have it's figurative meaning here, right?

Who created time? God or the sun and moon? You are beginning to worry me with your inflexible thought patterns here, pardner. :-?

Don't tell me that you think that the sun and moon told God how long and what distance that He should make the planets and moons to orbit.

Cupedbee isn't talking about who created time. What they mean is that the words used to denote time in Genesis are based on a human measurement of time. That measurement involves the rising and setting of the sun, so what does yom mean in the absense of a sun? It has nothing to do with time and everything to do with human language and thought. How does a literal interpretation of yom to mean 24 hours stack against the fact that the sun wasn't there to give yom a sunset to sunset reference?

The author of creation determined what time is and how much time to make a day. That time was created prior establishing the "lights" in the heavens to split the day from the night. Light and darkness existed from the first day when God created light. He then separated the light from the darkness, and at this time he created time whereby the cycle of light and darkness established the time called day. On the fourth day God created the "lights" in the heavens to rule over the night and the day, and the evening and morning still equals one day; no more, no less.

Read Genesis 1 very carefully.

 

[WillyGilligan]

Looking at Genesis, I'm seeing that light and dark were seperated, but no mention made of the earth whose rotation creates 'day' and 'night'. The sun and moon were created on the fourth day, so this light had no reference point. I also note that we went from 'formless and void' to having to seperate the waters. Where did the waters come from? He didn't make the waters on the first day, He stopped at darkness and light. He didn't make them on the second day, or it wouldn't have started with the seperation of the waters. If nothing not explicitly stated in the Bible happened, where did the waters come from?