"Tipping Point"

[Sinthesis]

Hi. I hope it doesn't come across as pedantic, but the problems Jesus listed as to why these various people were destroyed included eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling and planting and building (Luke 17:26-30).

You've confused correlation with causation.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

You've confused correlation with causation.

How so?

 

[Sinthesis]

How so?

Just because they were doing those things, it doesn't mean those are the particular things they were destroyed for doing.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Just because they were doing those things, it doesn't mean those are the particular things they were destroyed for doing.

Except the context is that Jesus is making a point about why these places were destroyed. Otherwise, what would be the point of mentioning those behaviors in connection with the destruction of those places? It would be equivalent to Jesus saying, "Those people were destroyed for reasons I won't mention, but I will, however, mention behaviors which had nothing to do with the point I'm making".

 

[Sinthesis]

Except the context is that Jesus is making a point about why these places were destroyed. Otherwise, what would be the point of mentioning those behaviors in connection with the destruction of those places? It would be equivalent to Jesus saying, "Those people were destroyed for reasons I won't mention, but I will, however, mention behaviors which had nothing to do with the point I'm making".

The context is that those people were living their everyday lives oblivious to their immanent judgement. We know from the OT what the sins of Noah's and Lot's contemporaries were. Their mortal sins were not the mundane everyday activities practiced by those who don't realize their apocalypse is tomorrow.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

The context is that those people were living their everyday lives oblivious to their immanent judgement. We know from the OT what the sins of Noah's and Lot's contemporaries were. Their mortal sins were not the mundane everyday activities practiced by those who don't realize their apocalypse is tomorrow.

Have you ever seen (or heard of) people putting non-sinful things before God? Would you agree that doing so makes those things sinful, not because they are sinful in themselves, but because we put them before God?

What causes people to miss the warning signs is that they become wrapped up in the cares of this world. They stop caring about what God wants. This is the same lesson from the parable of the marriage supper (Luke 14:18-20). Because these things are ordinary, everyday activities they do not appear as anything bad. God wouldn't have a problem with buying and selling, planting and building, marrying and giving in marriage etc. It is this complacency based on assumption that makes these things so dangerous.

 

[Sinthesis]

Have you ever seen (or heard of) people putting non-sinful things before God? Would you agree that doing so makes those things sinful, not because they are sinful in themselves, but because we put them before God?

What causes people to miss the warning signs is that they become wrapped up in the cares of this world. They stop caring about what God wants. This is the same lesson from the parable of the marriage supper (Luke 14:18-20). Because these things are ordinary, everyday activities they do not appear as anything bad. God wouldn't have a problem with buying and selling, planting and building, marrying and giving in marriage etc. It is this complacency based on assumption that makes these things so dangerous.

In Luke 17 Jesus doesn't associate those various actions with sin, only that they are done as a normal part of life. The worship of domestic chores before God is not the reason God judged Noah's and Lot's contemporaries.

Gen 6:5 ¶ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 18:20 - And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 - I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.​

If it was, then why take only one sleeper, grinder, or field hand and leave the other?

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Hi

In Luke 17 Jesus doesn't associate those various actions with sin, only that they are done as a normal part of life. The worship of domestic chores before God is not the reason God judged Noah's and Lot's contemporaries.

Gen 6:5 ¶ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 18:20 - And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 - I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.​

If it was, then why take only one sleeper, grinder, or field hand and leave the other?

Hi sinthesis. We can read the genesis account and it's easy to think of ourselves as different from those people but I think Jesus was looking at something deeper. You say Jesus doesn't associate those various actions with sin, and yet he mentions them in the context of why those places were destroyed. Otherwise, mention of those behaviors becomes pointless. The sin isn't planting and building. The sin is putting those things before God.

I'm not sure what you mean by 1 sleeper, grinder, and field hand, though I'm familiar with the teaching you are quoting. I'm not sure why you limit it to 1 of each. Jesus gives an example of a person choosing to follow God while the other stays behind to tend to their worldly cares. It's remarkably similar to the warning he gives about the everyday activities which people chose over God in the Lot/Noah examples.

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi


Hi sinthesis. We can read the genesis account and it's easy to think of ourselves as different from those people but I think Jesus was looking at something deeper. You say Jesus doesn't associate those various actions with sin, and yet he mentions them in the context of why those places were destroyed. Otherwise, mention of those behaviors becomes pointless. The sin isn't planting and building. The sin is putting those things before God.

I'm not sure what you mean by 1 sleeper, grinder, and field hand, though I'm familiar with the teaching you are quoting. I'm not sure why you limit it to 1 of each. Jesus gives an example of a person choosing to follow God while the other stays behind to tend to their worldly cares. It's remarkably similar to the warning he gives about the everyday activities which people chose over God in the Lot/Noah examples.

He is NOT mentioning the actions in the context of WHY those places were destroyed. The context is that those who were to be destroyed didn't see it coming.

 

[smaller]

There are other sights to see in these matters.

For example:

IF Jesus had returned when Paul was still living on earth in his flesh body, what would have transpired?

Let's look at Paul from scriptures Eyes.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If we are only seeing Paul in the above, we are simply NOT seeing as scripture sees.

One will be taken.

The other left.

Both standing in the same shoes.

So, how would this affect how we read end time events? We should understand who is standing on the ILL SIDE of the ledgers and not see just Paul.

These matters are NOT coming down as most are led to read when they can see only out of one eye. Both eyes need to be open and both ears need to be open. And the first person to SEE as scripture sees and hear as scripture hears is the person staring back at you in the mirror. Til any believer sees themselves as Paul saw himself, they will be effectively blinded themselves. And quite unaware. What that doesn't mean is that they will not be TAKEN.

They will be TAKEN. And one will be left. What the remainder stands to face may not be all that pretty, but then again you won't be there in that vile flesh to see it.

Think of it this way. In the beginning we are only shown the deceiver, the serpent in the garden. By the time we arrive at the man of Gadarenes/Gergesenes in the N.T. there were effectively thousands of devils in ONE MAN and the people of Israel were oveRUN with these internal enemies.

How many devils are walking IN MAN on earth today? I would have to say at least 7 billion or more. Hence the GREAT DRAGON grows, in his flesh kingdom.

 

[reba]

Jesus the Christ won the victory

 

[jasonc]

Jesus the Christ won the victory

That doesn't sell books,eschatology must be like a movie,not the fullfillement of Gods plan of redemption,final judgement fir men and devils.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

He is NOT mentioning the actions in the context of WHY those places were destroyed. The context is that those who were to be destroyed didn't see it coming.

They didn't see it coming because they were distracted with the cares of this world; ordinary, everyday, mundane activities which Jesus' own followers will use caps lock to deny any problem with. Jesus wanted us to know that these issues are not beyond question despite how normal and innocent they appear in everyday life and that it is precisely because they are so commonly beyond question that they are so problematic.

Sinthesis, doth thou protest too much? :P

 

[Sinthesis]

Apparently I don't protest enough. In Luke 17 Jesus doesn't mention distraction as a problem. He doesn't even explain the difference between those to be taken from those to be left. Maybe it's distraction with bad eschatology.

Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 - Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22 - And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Luk 17:23 - And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not afterthem, nor follow them.
Luk 17:24 - For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 - But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 - They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 - Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 - But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 - In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 - Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 - Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 - Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 - Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 - And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.​

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

I'm curious if you see any correlation at all between the days of Noah/Lot verses and these verses from the parable of the marriage supper (Luke 14:18-20).

 

[smaller]

I'm curious if you see any correlation at all between the days of Noah/Lot verses and these verses from the parable of the marriage supper (Luke 14:18-20).

All parables are identical. They have 3 basic components in every instance.

Jesus gave us the "key" to understanding ALL of them in Mark 4. It is this understanding that governs all scripture constructs and all scripture understandings. It can be both simple and complex in conveyance. I've studied parables, allegories and similitude, drawing from every and any resource I could find, so it's not like I'm a newbie to the territory. 30+ years with my nose glued to the texts.

But, the big but here is that there is a very active and legitimate blocking/locking device that scripture purposefully puts on these matters that few will be "allowed" to break through and get past. And that is built into the scriptures. Sometimes shown as a door, both shut and opened.

Once you have entered in, past that door, there is an entire "other book" that is written within the book that very few people will ever see. But it is that door that Paul went through for his own Revelation writings, in Gal. 4-5 for example or in his dissection of O.T. law in 1 Cor. 9. Paul was the master of spiritual correlations, and he LEADS the way into these matters, but left a LOT of territory for us to cover.

Man in scriptural parable terms is deployed in many ways. One of those ways is as "a house."

There are RULES in Gods House. If the house is not governed by Gods Rules, they will not be shown the open door. The most important Rule in the house is listed at the bottom of your own posts. It is also listed in Romans 13:8-10. IF you are really there, then eventually you'll find the code breaker to all parables in Mark 4:15, but it comes with a big personal, GULP.

It is probably the highest hurdle there is to leap in the scriptures.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

All parables are identical. They have 3 basic components in every instance.

Hi Smaller. [edit] Ok I see. you see them as identical. I don't, but I do see a very specific similarity in the substance of what each verse teaches. The lesson is shockingly similar. ^.^

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller. [edit] Ok I see. you see them as identical. I don't, but I do see a very specific similarity in the substance of what each verse teaches. The lesson is shockingly similar. ^.^

When I noted 3 basic components to every parable, that is where they are identical. IF any component is missing in the dissections, then they are false understandings.

The 3 basic components that must be present in every parable understanding are:

God
Man
Satan

Gods Language is allegory/parable. God in Christ is quite entirely ACTIVE upon the earth, today, and every day, if we see through Those Eyes. Heb. 4:12. We can see Him with our own eyes in His Ways.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

When I noted 3 basic components to every parable, that is where they are identical. IF any component is missing in the dissections, then they are false understandings.

The 3 basic components that must be present in every parable understanding are:

God
Man
Satan

Gods Language is allegory/parable. God in Christ is quite entirely ACTIVE upon the earth, today, and every day, if we see through Those Eyes. Heb. 4:12. We can see Him with our own eyes in His Ways.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Sure, but parables have basic lessons to them. A parable is meant to communicate something. To say all parables have something in common is fine. But to say all parables teach the same lesson is very different.

I'm asking if you can see any correlation in the specifics of the parable of the great supper and Jesus comments on the sins of the days of Noah and Lot.

 

[smaller]

Sure, but parables have basic lessons to them.

I doubt you caught on to the picture. But let's observe.

Parable components: God (His Word)

Directed to both: [Man (in benefit) and Satan (to resist Gods Word)]

The above is the parable construct and also "how" the Word of God is in action. IF you understand the parable, you'll see why I put [brackets] on the parties. That's how parables speak and how they operate. To lift up one and to condemn the other. When the Word comes to our own ears, it's not just "us" as individuals seeing or hearing.

If believers don't get this point, they'll always get a half a loaf or a mouth full of nothing because they don't get the parable picture.

A parable is meant to communicate something. To say all parables have something in common is fine. But to say all parables teach the same lesson is very different.

I started with the components. Then, in this post showed how the parable applies, actively, in TWO ways. But also as noted prior, it can be put up in plain sight, but until the house is in order and one takes the parables PERSONALLY, they won't get it no matter how many times it's observed. One of the more engaging aspects of theology. It's real in real time.

I'm asking if you can see any correlation in the specifics of the parable of the great supper and Jesus comments on the sins of the days of Noah and Lot.

Jesus said the end will be AS the days of Noah and Lot.

IF you see the AS as it should be, how might we proceed? By just looking at MAN? By ignoring what "end time" is about, the final destruction of the devil and his messengers?

The end time is about the destruction of the devil and his messengers. That's 99% of the accounts. But unfortunately from bad habits and poor teaching people still read and they still see ONLY PEOPLE.

It's quite sad really, that blindness. But, it's by Divine Intent.

And from there, by what means does THEIR destruction come? Do we understand that it is GODS MERCY that destroys THEM? How many believers can see that THEIR END is quite a glorious and magnificent event? Not doom and gloom whatsoever.

Call it thesis and antithesis. Hero and bad guy. Antagonist and protagonist. Scripture deals with these kinds of OPPOSITES. One Word. TWO entirely different applications to the respective parties.

When one entire entity class and kingdom is missing from the theological conversation, there is no conversation. Just one sided void blather.