"Tipping Point"

[Endtime_Survivors]

I guessing all that explanation means you don't see any similarity between the two?Or, you see them as being the same?

 

[smaller]

I guessing all that explanation means you don't see any similarity between the two?Or, you see them as being the same?

Try this dress on for size and I'll see if you heard anything yet:

Rev. 18:
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Hi Smaller, (and sinthesis). Thanks for trying so hard to help me to understand your position, though I'm not sure I have understood you properly. When I read the parables, I think about what lesson(s) the parable is meant to communicate.

In the case of the teaching about Noah/Lot's day and the parable of the marriage supper, I see a striking similarity.

LK 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
LK 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
LK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Compared with...

LK 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
LK 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
LK 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

Also, compare with...

LK 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
LK 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
LK 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Also, compare with...

LK 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Also compare with...

LK 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
LK 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

From my perspective, the common theme in these examples is that of putting the cares of this world before God. Even the most normal, innocent activities like eating and drinking become sinful when we do that, and yet it is because they are so normal and innocent that we are so susceptible to abusing them.

There are many examples of this principle in Jesus' teachings. When I read them, I take the lesson that Jesus believed this was an important issue so when I see other Christians saying stuff like, "Jesus doesn't associate those various actions with sin, only that they are done as a normal part of life" it makes me wonder why they do not see the same lesson. I understand that other Christians can think differently to me and still be sincere, but this particular lesson seems so obvious; be careful how we interact with the cares of this world. We need to seriously question what it means to put these things before God and whether or not any of us are doing so. I don't see that carefulness in sinthesis' or your responses. The emphasis seems to be to move away from that kind of critical self-examination on the assumption that since these various behaviors are not wrong in themselves then there is automatically no problem.

 

[Sinthesis]

Mat 11:19 - The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Post#26
Have you ever seen (or heard of) people putting non-sinful things before God? Would you agree that doing so makes those things sinful, not because they are sinful in themselves, but because we put them before God?

Post#43
From my perspective, the common theme in these examples is that of putting the cares of this world before God. Even the most normal, innocent activities like eating and drinking become sinful when we do that, and yet it is because they are so normal and innocent that we are so susceptible to abusing them.

18 posts later and you're still not addressing the real issue, sinthesis.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller, The emphasis seems to be to move away from that kind of critical self-examination on the assumption that since these various behaviors are not wrong in themselves then there is automatically no problem.

The "critical self-examination" starts with Jesus' explanation of the parable to understand "all" parables:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Every believer who reads the above "self exempts" the above from being a reality for them, even though "ALL" are sinners and:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

At the point of the pursuit of sinlessness one comes to examine the reality of sin to try to make "sure" that it's snuffed out completely. What some find in this pursuit is that the problem really stems from within, from the heart and the mind in adverse evil sinful thoughts, as Jesus shows us here:

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Just as Paul taught here: Romans 7:7-13 which is identical to Mark 4:15

It is then that the reality of Mark 4:15 sets it's hold in truth. It's not some lesson. It's a reality.

 

[Sinthesis]

18 posts later and you're still not addressing the real issue, sinthesis.

I agree that putting the cares of the world before God can be sinful. I don't believe the context of Luke 17 allows for one to assume that this was the sin for which God judged the world in the times of Noah, or judged Sodom in the time of Lot.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

I agree that putting the cares of the world before God can be sinful.

Can you describe the situations in which you think putting the cares of the world before God would not be sinful?

 

[Sinthesis]

People mistake what God desires from us all the time. If you are willing to neglect the very real worldly needs of others because you perceive God has some greater need you must fill instead, then you're probably mistaken.

Mat 12:10 - And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 - And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 - How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mat 12:13 - Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Mat 12:14 - Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.​

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

I agree that putting the cares of the world before God can be sinful.

I don't think you answered this question, sinthesis. I'd really like to hear what you meant when you posted this.

If you are willing to neglect the very real worldly needs of others because you perceive God has some greater need you must fill instead, then you're probably mistaken.

So, even if we "perceive" (i.e. believe?) God has some greater need from us, it would be a mistake to choose that need over what we perceive to be more important worldly needs like food and clothing?

Sinthesis, I don't know you as a person. I have no idea what you do in real life, how you show love to your neighbor, whether you help the poor, how you preach the gospel or any number of other things regarding your spiritual life so I'm not commenting on any of those things. The only information I know about you is from what you post on this forum and based on that information I think it's clear that you have a problem in this particular area.

I'm not trying to one-up you or somehow prove you to be spiritually inferior. I see there is a genuine cause for concern in how you're responding to this issue of our interaction with worldly cares, 1) Concern for your own spirit and 2) Concern for how your witness on this issue could influence other Christians.

For example, in post# 43 I listed several examples of Jesus addressing this issue of our attitude toward worldly cares. The examples showed people putting these cares before God. Your response was to post a verse (without any explanation) about Jesus eating and drinking. The context had nothing to do with the current issue, but because it included the words "eating and drinking" you posted it anyway as though it somehow refuted all those other examples from Jesus. The argument had always been one of putting these cares of the world before God, but you either didn't see that or ignored it. Either scenario suggests a problem given the amount of explanation already shared on the issue.

In response, I posted two quotes from my own posts where I specifically mentioned the problem as being about putting these things before God (as opposed to these things being sinful in themselves) and asked you to deal with the real issue.

You responded by saying there are times when it can be sinful to put worldly cares before God. The obvious implication is that there are times when it is not sinful to put worldly cares before God. When I asked you to address that, you suggested that even if we do perceive that God wants us to put him before basic necessities like food and clothing, we would be mistaken to do so because it would amount to "neglecting" ourselves.

In other words, our loyalty to God should only extend up to the point that he asks us to neglect our worldly desires. If Jesus asks us to lay down our lives, that would be neglecting our physical safety and therefore a mistake. If Jesus asked us to miss a few meals, that would be neglecting our bodies and therefore a mistake. If Jesus asked us to work for love instead of payment that would be neglecting our monetary stability and therefore a mistake. If Jesus asked us to stop by the wayside to help a person who had been attacked, that could be a threat to our physical safety and therefor a mistake.

But neglectisn't a bad word. Neglect is precisely what happens when a choice between God or the world arises; we must neglect one in order to choose the other. That's what happens in any choice between two options. Compare your comments with "if any man will come after me, let him deny (neglect?) himself, take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24-25).

God knows what we need. He's the one who made these bodies. He knows we need food and clothing to survive, but he still expects us to put him first, before everything (Matthew 6:24-34).

 

[Malachi]

Four Blood Moons on Jewish holidays 2014 -2015. Two solar eclipses on Jewish holidays.

Christians should simply ignore everything about blood moons. There would be no "Jewish" holidays if Israel had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.