Tithing - The Truth Please

[BeforeThereWas]

Thanks, lovely, for your great input.

This may seem like a rehash, in some respects, of ground I've already covered, but I think it's worthy of detailing in order to drive the point home for those who don't quite get it.

Many pastors within organized religion, and even mission boards, some more legalistic than others, are guilty of both subtle and not so subtle forms of intimidation of their congregations and supporters. Knowingly or unknowingly, they use the Word of God deceitfully. By misinterpreting the Scriptures, they urge their people to do something contrary to sound doctrine. A perfect example is how they apply the Biblical account of the “widow’s mite.â€Â. Misinterpretations of Mark 12:41-44 and Luke 20:45-47 and 21:1-4 create guilt for not handing over the primary portion of their giving into the institution, and sometimes persuade individuals and entire congregations to give beyond their means to a system of religion that routinely abuses their giving. This approach, giving motivated by guilt and/or fear, is a direct contradiction of Paul's doctrine of giving in the NT in 2 Corinthians 8:5-15.

Using the Mark and Luke passages of the widow and her gift as illustration, some preach, "You haven't given anything until you give sacrificially." Others state, "Give till it hurts," which suggests that God is not pleased with believers unless they're suffering. What a misrepresentation of the grace of God! Because of these and similar tactics, the church of Jesus Christ has become known as money grubbing, and unbelievers have found another excuse to ignore God. "All they want is my money." Sadly, all too often their complaint is accurate.

The context of this biblical account of the widow who gave her last two mites is not meant to teach sacrificial giving. In fact, the Lord’s real point is virtually the antithesis of how the passage is usually treated. The Lord here teaches about the crime, one of which any false religious system is guilty, of having no particular interest in the welfare of the individual, but a great deal of interest in exploiting the giver for the system's own survival and gain. A brief exposition of Mark 12:38-44; 13:1-2 will demonstrate this point.

The context is critical to a correct interpretation of this passage. Jesus was in the Temple teaching. He had been talking about the character and the conduct of the scribes. The scribes mentioned in the gospels were, at that time, professional scholars in the interpretation of the Old Testament. (They had no role during Old Testament times having come into being during and after the Babylonian captivity.) They were usurpers who took upon themselves the responsibility of interpreting the Old Testament for the people. Since the priests from the tribe of Levi were God's ordained teachers of Israel (Deuteronomy 24:8; 33:10), the scribes of Jesus' day were self-appointed leaders of a superficial and apostate religion; superficial in that it emphasized only the external show of religion, and apostate because it had long since left the true purposes of the Word of God.

Jesus' opinion of the scribes can be seen in His own discourse concerning them:

“And He said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the market place, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers: these shall receive greater condemnation.†(Mark 12:38-40)

Two very important points need to be made from the above text. The Greek words blepete apo ton grammateon are literally translated “you see from the scribes,†interpreted: “you see with understanding by the way they dress, want to be noticed, how self-centered, and self-important the scribes are.†The Greek word "apo," from which the word “from†is translated, means “away from,†“turn your backs on them.†This is the alternative to practicing their religion. Our Lord was teaching that God's people should not follow the way of the scribes and their teachings. The authority of the scribes should be rejected. In addition, they were guilty of shameful conduct: “They devour widow's houses.â€Â

Now, Jesus continued His condemnation of the scribes by the graphic illustration in verses 41-44. Jesus was sitting opposite the trumpet-shaped chests into which the people threw their temple offerings, not the tithe. He observed how the people cast money into the treasury, and the “rich cast in much.†Then He continues, “And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing†(v. 42). The text reveals the difference between what the widow offered and the offering of the rich. “Verily I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast more in than all they which have cast into the treasury...all her living†(Mark 12:43b-44b). The rich would not miss what they gave, but the poor widow had given away all her living. She had given all she had to an apostate system of the temple worship of the Jews, while the promised Redeemer sat but a step away.

Unfortumately, there's a chapter break at this point in the narrative, which interrupts the flow of this narrative, both here and in Luke's gospel. The context continues in Mark 13:1-2 as one of the disciples, obviously not understanding Christ's lesson, urged the Lord to observe the impressiveness of the outward appearance of the temple buildings surrounding them. At that point, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the false, religious system the poor widow had contributed her all. “Jesus said: Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down†(Mark 13:2b). The buildings of the Temple area, with all their splendor, along with the corrupt religious system centered within them, would be destroyed, and those who had rejected their Messiah in favor of the false religious system would perish with it. Jesus' prophecy came to pass in 70 A.D. when the armies of Rome, under Titus, leveled Jerusalem and the Temple area, thus destroying the arena for the Jew's false religious practices.

The most pathetic part of this account is that the misguided widow could have had eternal life had she turned from the false, put her money in her pocket, and embraced the Savior, who was sitting nearby, observing.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.†(Matthew 23:37-38)

The tragedy of life is always that Jesus is so near with the gift of life, but people seek either to buy or to work their way into heaven.

The widow gave all she had under the misguided impression that she was serving God. This is why the Lord said (v. 40) that the scribes were guilty of devouring widows’ houses. The scribes, with no apparent pangs of conscience, actively promoted the kind of misguided, and sometimes even extreme sacrifice exhibited by this poor widow. And Jesus clearly is teaching that the coercions and intimidations practiced by the scribes were evil. A further irony--the most tragic of all--is that the scribes of Jesus' day promoted such a heretical doctrine while this unfortunate person, as well as the rest of the nation of Israel, headed for destruction.

In conclusion, we can observe the following:

* Jesus teaching his disciples. (Luke 20:45)
* The context is a discussion of the superficiality and malpractice of the scribes
* The account of the widow's mite was an observable demonstration of one method whereby the scribes devoured widow's houses
* The religion she supported was replaced by the gospel of grace. The temple and system to which she gave was destroyed in 70 A.D., and was replaced by the Church of Jesus Christ
* All her sacrifice was for nothing
* The widow could have received eternal life freely, then and there, if only she had turned to Jesus
* Preachers who would follow the example of the scribes are not true to the Word of God
* Only a false, uncaring religious system would absorb believer's primary giving for its own sustenance and gain, and ask members who cannot afford it to donate to their cause
* The widow's mite does not teach giving: A better application would be, â€ÂLook out for the "pastors" and bishops right here and nowi, in our own timeÀÂ
* If the work is of God, God will supply: if it is not God's work, let it die apart from false teaching and false practice
* Do not give if it hurts; God doesn't want or need that kind of giving

 

[videocrafter]

...
The most pathetic part of this account is that the misguided widow could have had eternal life had she turned from the false, put her money in her pocket, and embraced the Savior, who was sitting nearby, observing.

I think your way off base here. As a mater of fact, I'm not sure your even in the ballpark.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

...
The most pathetic part of this account is that the misguided widow could have had eternal life had she turned from the false, put her money in her pocket, and embraced the Savior, who was sitting nearby, observing.

I think your way off base here. As a mater of fact, I'm not sure your even in the ballpark.

This "I think" of yours must be a weak thought indeed since you provided no thoughtful, biblically based rebuttal in support of your disagreement.

Additionally, the way the above quote is worded does tend to give the impression, to those who aren't Christian, therefore knowing better, that what she did with that money had something to do with her salvation. That wasn't the intent. It's assumed that the average believer knows that money is not the deciding factor for one's salvation. We really cannot know for sure as to if that widow was truly saved or not, but we do know that if she were following the lead of the pharasees, that she is certainly doomed because of Jesus' own words when He said in Matt. 23:13, "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in,", and again in verse 15, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

So, if where she placed her money was any indication of her being a follower of the pharisees and their teachings, she had a problem on her hands concerning her eternal future. Jesus said nothing about the condition of her soul, so we're left with no absolute, authoritative conclusion one way or the other. Placing all she had in the collection is not an indicator that she was saved. There have always been unsaved people give remarkably of their resources and of themselves.

BTW

 

[videocrafter]

Well I'm sorry, some things just don't require much thought, nor do they deserve much attention. Kind of like your profile.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Well I'm sorry, some things just don't require much thought, nor do they deserve much attention. Kind of like your profile.

Is this supposed to mean something? What does my profile have to do with any of this? Am I falling short of some personal, preconceived criteria of yours?

BTW

 

[videocrafter]

Nope, I was just trying to make a point. For whatever reason, you didn't feel it was important to put anything in your profile. In the same token, I didn't feel your argument deserved much attention. Why didn't you start this thread with your line of thought instead of waiting until now to post such a off color view of this lesson Christ gave us about our giving. You couldn't be any further from the truth. It's simply useless to argue your point.

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:
Well, here is my approach :fadein:. I believe all of God's Word, including Malachi 3:6-9. To me it is all Christ's Word! His N.T. Word of "YE OUGHT TO HAVE DONE, AND NOT LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.." does nothing to create a 'new' thing on tithing. The Eccl. verses.

Now, here is the issue as I see it. That of robbing God in both his tithes & 'His' offerings.
How can I support any of the Revelation 17:1-5, & take note of verse fives 'daughters'? (Nor being even yoked in them in membership!)

According to the Masters Word, I am a partaker of their [openly printed documented sins] by being in yoked membership with them even! And it is an eternal death decision to remain in these ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH FOLDS.

OK: Now we see that I am to tithe God's tithes & offerings to SUPPORT THIS??? ROB GOD by openly supporting this???? Seems that this question is the one to be considered!!!

And instead what do we see?? Is God (Christ) number one in my life??? True His saving LOVE?? (see Revelation 3:16-17!) Everything in my life seem's to come first, above & beyond Christ! Read the 'VAIN' Titus 3:9-11 'threads' all over the Internet!

And, I might just add the Inspiration of Christ from His Word as seen in Luke 12:47-48 for all professed Christians!!

[+], how in the world could anyone be in any 'fold' today, with all of the OPEN PRINTED DAILY TRITE being published in the News daily? and there is be [A] 'shaking' or FALLING AWAY as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3??? [AND].. the FALLING AWAY IS THE WHOLE OF THE MANY DENOMINATIONS!!! Again, the Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & the Ecclesiastes 3:15 documented proof! Israel of old's REPEAT! But, where are these 'gutless wonders' at?????????? (these are men?? : And they LOVE CHRIST??? You got to be B-L-I-N-D!)

That is the LIFE and DEATH ISSUE! What are you doing about it??? Forums all over the world, & we see very little if anything at all! :
NO??? Well then, just take a look at your personal file, (who ever you are?) click on your many postings, then read!! Most all are reams & reams of nothing!

And too support anything else other than this revival & reform work with God's Tithes & Offerings??? One could rob God no quicker!!!

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I'm no expert in Jewish custom, but it's possible that if they still had a temple, they would still be practicing even that part of the Law since they reject Christ Jesus. It seems strange that, as important as the temple is to them, they haven't fought to get the temple mound back from the muslims. They've had many opportunities, but they've remained mostly scattered all over the earth rather than to fight for that most important structure (to them that is)

I think that nowadays they are more concerned with the safety of Israel as a nation than whether they have a temple or not. A temple might be "icing on the cake", but I think the overall concern among Jews today has to do with their survival as a people. IOW, there is more a secular mindset among Jewish folks now than in past centuries, as it is among most peoples. Though there is a hardcore religious percentage, in general, I think their religion is more a custom or heritage to them than something actually believed by the majority. The majority of Jews (especially in the U.S.) do not follow Torah to the extent they used to, just like, though statistics may indicate there are one billion Catholics in the world, how many of them are actually involved in their religion? How many of them are only labelled "Catholic" because thier parents were?

(Not a perfect comparison because being Jewish has not only to do with religion but ethnicity, but I think the comparison is valid when only evaluating the religious part)

Therein you have the main thrust behind the focus upon this one Law, among so many, organized religion has chosen to ram down the throats of its followers. Today, there's less emphsais upon the tithe because organized religion's leadership knows many would walk out, never to darken their doorstep again. Shadows are money. Some still strangle their people with this Law.

This leftover relic of the roman catholic religion will continue to serve its intended purpose. Sweetening it up with a few benevolent outreaches, coupled together with the mass ignorance of the scriptures by most of organized religion's followers, make it more palletable so that its supporters can continue on with utter abandon of personal responsibility.

:angel: Preach!! :angel:

 

[BibleJunky]

If anyone is interested.... I have a nice outline of the doctrine of tithing, that I have in one of my study Bibles, that I would happily scan and post a link to so you guys can read it.

anyone interested?

BibleJunky

 

[BibleJunky]

Here we go... I scanned the part I was talking about... it may be a little big... but the words are quite small and I wanted all to be able to read it...

Hopefully it looks okay...

BibleJunky :-D

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Nope, I was just trying to make a point. For whatever reason, you didn't feel it was important to put anything in your profile. In the same token, I didn't feel your argument deserved much attention.

As long as this makes sense to you... I still say this is a juvenile dodge because I provided all the information required by the administrator of this site. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps you should take that up with him. Under different circumstances I doubt you would have appreciated this kind of nonsensical rebuttal from someone else of your presentation, but as long as it appears to be convenient to you, then relish it while you can, for it will disappear into oblivion along with the rest of your meaningless observations that went to prove nothing in your favor.

Why didn't you start this thread with your line of thought instead of waiting until now to post such a off color view of this lesson Christ gave us about our giving.

Jesus wasn't talking about OUR giving. He wasn't talking about ANYTHING we could mimick. The temple treasury is no more because the temple is no more. That treasury was used for the temple upkeep. It had nothing to do with the tithe, which was used for the meeting of needs. If emotional appeal is your sole defense for disagreeing with my presentation, then you obviously have nothing of any real value to say.

You couldn't be any further from the truth. It's simply useless to argue your point.

Especially when you have no counter point built upon any greater foundation than emotion and knee-jerk reactionism.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

If anyone is interested.... I have a nice outline of the doctrine of tithing, that I have in one of my study Bibles, that I would happily scan and post a link to so you guys can read it.

anyone interested?

BibleJunky

I wish you had posted it in actual text so that we could go through it step by step. However, I will try to hit upon it point by point:

The first statement, that tithing predates the Law In Genesis is utterly false. The tithe as defined by the Law, which is what most pro-tithers point at, is not at all similar to the events portrayed in Genesis. Just because it's in the back of your Bible (I think) doesn't mean it enjoys the same infallibility as the word of God itself. Abraham's TENTH of the SPOILS is not anything we can mimmick today, nor would anyone, in their right mind, wish to mimmick Jacob's TENTH. If you think I'm wrong about this, then I would certainly like to see the error in my viewpoint.

The next section talking about the tithe supplying "God's House" had to do with provision for the Levites, the fatherless, the widows, and the stranger between the times that the tithe was brought forth.

We've already dealt with Jesus' teaching of the tithe in this thread, the gross misunderstanding of which was effectively dispatched. Just because Jesus talked about it doesn't mean that it's something that carries over to this day. He made no mention of it continuing, only that the pharasees, who boasted of paying even of their herbal crops, and who were still under the Lawful requirement to tithe of their crops and herds, for the New Covenant had not, as of this reference to the pharasees, been established. Transplanting from the Law what happens to be convenient for man-made, organized religion is itself highly suspect to say the least.

Yes, God did ordain the support of ministers, however He never made metion of local elders ceasing to be productive citizens in their respective communities. I also pointed out that just because someone is elected/hired as a leader within organized religion doesn't mean that they are suddenly become Biblically qualified as leaders within the Church, because the Church is not at all defined by man-made churches. For many centuries, organized religion has boasted of its alleged sole right to be viewed as being representative of the Church in its universal and local expression. I reject this because of the many fallacies of organized religion, and its tendency toward self-indulgence.

BTW

 

[BibleJunky]

If anyone is interested.... I have a nice outline of the doctrine of tithing, that I have in one of my study Bibles, that I would happily scan and post a link to so you guys can read it.

anyone interested?

BibleJunky

I wish you had posted it in actual text so that we could go through it step by step. However, I will try to hit upon it point by point:

The first statement, that tithing predates the Law In Genesis is utterly false. The tithe as defined by the Law, which is what most pro-tithers point at, is not at all similar to the events portrayed in Genesis. Just because it's in the back of your Bible (I think) doesn't mean it enjoys the same infallibility as the word of God itself. Abraham's TENTH of the SPOILS is not anything we can mimmick today, nor would anyone, in their right mind, wish to mimmick Jacob's TENTH. If you think I'm wrong about this, then I would certainly like to see the error in my viewpoint.

The next section talking about the tithe supplying "God's House" had to do with provision for the Levites, the fatherless, the widows, and the stranger between the times that the tithe was brought forth.

We've already dealt with Jesus' teaching of the tithe in this thread, the gross misunderstanding of which was effectively dispatched. Just because Jesus talked about it doesn't mean that it's something that carries over to this day. He made no mention of it continuing, only that the pharasees, who boasted of paying even of their herbal crops, and who were still under the Lawful requirement to tithe of their crops and herds, for the New Covenant had not, as of this reference to the pharasees, been established. Transplanting from the Law what happens to be convenient for man-made, organized religion is itself highly suspect to say the least.

Yes, God did ordain the support of ministers, however He never made metion of local elders ceasing to be productive citizens in their respective communities. I also pointed out that just because someone is elected/hired as a leader within organized religion doesn't mean that they are suddenly become Biblically qualified as leaders within the Church, because the Church is not at all defined by man-made churches. For many centuries, organized religion has boasted of its alleged sole right to be viewed as being representative of the Church in its universal and local expression. I reject this because of the many fallacies of organized religion, and its tendency toward self-indulgence.

BTW

I tend to believe you're just looking for an excuse not to give your required tithe. and if this is the case, KEEP YOUR MONEY! God doesn't want a grumpy giver, but a cheerful giver, if it offends you, don't do it!

The only thing you will miss out on is blessings.

But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
(2 Corinthians 9:6-7 KJV)

One thing to remember is Legalism will kill you, in the end.

Futher more, How are Pastors and or Ministers supposed to be paid? especally if they're full time? and YES, God does call people to serve full time. I'm one of them.

Answer me that. I bet you can't or will blather more legalistic nonsense, if that's the case, spare me, ok? 'Cause I know the word, and you obviously don't.

-Chuck

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I tend to believe you're just looking for an excuse not to give your required tithe. and if this is the case, KEEP YOUR MONEY! God doesn't want a grumpy giver, but a cheerful giver, if it offends you, don't do it!

Is this the full extent of your ability to defend the alleged requirement to tithe? Is this the best you can do? This is nothing but ad hominem, knee-jerk reactionism rather than a thoughtful, well-reasoned appologetic for your belief.

The only thing you will miss out on is blessings.

I'm abundantly blessed. I have all I need, and I give where there is need. Why would anyone want to support organized religion, which routinely abuses the primary portion of your giving. Not only is that blind, but reflects a serious lack of taking proper responsibility for stewradship on the part of all those those who willfully hand over that portion to what is known to abuse it.

One thing to remember is Legalism will kill you, in the end.

Where do you think the teaching of the alleged "lawful requirement" to tithe origninated? I suspect that you are upset because that little commentary of yours was so easy to tear apart. Trash like that works only in the minds of the weaker in faith and knowledge.

Futher more, How are Pastors and or Ministers supposed to be paid? especally if they're full time? and YES, God does call people to serve full time. I'm one of them.

How do you discern as to which were called by God and which are not? Where does God's word draw a line of similarity between His Church and organized religion? Those who are truly spiritual know that Paul spoke truly of our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus:

2 Cor. 9:7, "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

Teaching that we are required to tithe is nothing but antithetical to this very instruction from Paul of Tarsus.

Answer me that. I bet you can't or will blather more legalistic nonsense, if that's the case, spare me, ok? 'Cause I know the word, and you obviously don't.

-Chuck

Well, chuck, I didn't put forth anything that was legalistic. I asked you questions that you strategically avoided, and offered instead nothing more than a stream of incoherent nonsense in the place of reasonable appologetics.

I don't need to defened my position when you damaged yours from the start with this kind of nonsensical defensiveness.

BTW

 

[videocrafter]

BibleJunky, I appriciate you posting from your Bible. Thanks.

If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time any further on this thread. Some people are simply lost causes.

 

[BibleJunky]

BibleJunky, I appriciate you posting from your Bible. Thanks.

If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time any further on this thread. Some people are simply lost causes.

I agree... This dude needs to just curse God and die.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

BibleJunky, I appriciate you posting from your Bible. Thanks.

If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time any further on this thread. Some people are simply lost causes.

That means so much coming from the likes of you. :-D

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

BibleJunky, I appriciate you posting from your Bible. Thanks.

If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time any further on this thread. Some people are simply lost causes.

I agree... This dude needs to just curse God and die.

Very similar sentiment from Job's wife, who also must have been a wicked individual to suggest such a senseless act.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Well, as you all can see, two individuals have aptly demonstrated their inability to apply scriptres with consistent appologetics, sound reason, and coherent conveyance stemming from any form of acceptable and historic rules for interpretation.

I love people, but when pharasaical types come along thinking they can misapply whatever tickles their fancy for the purpose of manipulation and one-upmanship, well, they are worthy of the same treatment Jesus gave to the pharasees.

People like them take away your freedom in Christ Jesus by speaking of an alleged requirement for you to tithe to organized religion, all the while assuming that they're authorized by God to pull out from the Law whatever benefits their love of bondage to man-made institutions.

Richard Hansen said it well when he stated:

It is a universal tendency in the Christian religion, as in many other religions, to give a theological interpretation to institutions, which have developed gradually through a period of time for the sake of practical usefulness, and then read that interpretation back into the earliest periods and infancy of these institutions, attaching them to an age when in fact nobody imagined that they had such a meaning.

BTW

 

[Free]

Let's all keep on topic and stop the personal attacks.

Thanks.