Tithing - The Truth Please

[John the Baptist]

But all "churches" rob God on a weekly basis. They absorb the tithes for their own use, letting a little smidgen go for a token outreach here and there to make their followers think they're doing what's right in God's word.

No thanks. That's why I walked away from organized, religious institutions because they rob God constantly, and those people, both those who received the tithes and abused them, and those who gave it to them, will be judged one day for their evil.

BTW

******
John here:
Let me be clear & loving! What you have walked away from is not any 'fold' per/say, but the Everlasting Gospel of Christ! (Revelation 14:6)
To have Christ without His Everlasting Gospel just can't be done!!

If you were to have been a Saul (Paul to be?) in Acts 9:6, you had already made shipwreck, even with this chapter at your disposal! Lord!! I am not going to do as [YOU REQUIRE] in verse 6 and Acts 9:18

And no organized Virgin fold? Again, .. never mind, you can't even grasp the above it seems?? Why not pray about your stupid decision? (Matt. 25's foolish) Or are you one of the 'real' foolish that cannot admit that they are so, who have a closed door??

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Let me be clear & loving! What you have walked away from is not any 'fold' per/say, but the Everlasting Gospel of Christ! (Revelation 14:6)
To have Christ without His Everlasting Gospel just can't be done!!

Well, John-boy, it's too bad that you see the Gospel of Christ Jesus as being defined by man-made, organized religion. What a tragedy. I will pray that the Lord will show you the error of your ways. You must believe in a christ of your own making, because the Christ described within the pages of the Bible is not represented by organized religion and its buildings. You are a product of organized religion, which is tragic. I pitty you.

Again, .. never mind, you can't even grasp the above it seems?? Why not pray about your stupid decision? (Matt. 25's foolish) Or are you one of the 'real' foolish that cannot admit that they are so, who have a closed door??

Your being a product of organized religion keeps you from being able to recognize the depravity of your own self-righteousness. The God described in the Bible is Lord, and when He said, "Come, follow ME," I took Him seriously. He didn't say, "Go, follow man-made religion and ecclesiastical deadness that is built upon mammon." I follow the Lord.

It's rather comical, and yet sad that you would ever suggest that anyone return to the deadness of organized religion. Jesus didn't start a religion. Christianity is a way of life, not a religion.

BTW

 

[John the Baptist]

Go back to Heb. 5! If not Hebrews 6:6 already with your Gen. 4:7 'desired' junk!!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Why not speak plainly rather than regurgitating references that have a context that's not consistent with the topic of this thread? Why can't you speak like a man who has something to say? Your self-righteous hubbub says nothing of any real substance.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

It staggers the perceptive abilities of even the simplest of intellect that anyone could think that organized religion is a suitable replacement of the intimate fellowship, mutual accountability, encouragement, and most of all, the living and breathing mutual edification portrayed within the first century Church. God used many things and people to His glory, and if He could use pharoah to demonstrate His perfect Power, then He can use organized religion to His ends, but that doesn't mean that pharoah and organized religion were in line with His perfect will. God touches more lives in more ways outside of organized religion than within it. After all, most institutions are convened only three or four hours out of 168 every week. That's a ratio of 1:42.

Has organized religion made a positive impact? Sure it has, and in many ways. This is true of many tools mankind has devised for himself. Has organized religion made a negative impact? Again, sure it has, and in more ways than one. The words of Christ ring true throughout every age when He stated that where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in their midst. (Matt. 18:20) This is found to be antithetical to the man-made mentality that bigger is better. That simply isn't true, especially when the resources of large numbers of people are diverted away from the clear examples and commands of scripture into things that do not meet needs of the needy, and stand more as monuments to man's pride than a service to meet the needs of God's children.

The Church, of which we, who are in Christ Jesus, are all members, lives and breaths apart from the foundation of money. Organized religion, on the other hand, stands or falls on the foundation of money. Apart from money, organized religion has no footing, and collapses.

If the raw, unbridled power of emotion that is spewed in defense of organized religion's alleged infallibility were redirected toward being a people who pattern their lives after God's examples and commands within His written word, America would be a far better place than it is today.

I have God's word for backing on that.

BTW

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The Church, of which we, who are in Christ Jesus, are all members, lives and breaths apart from the foundation of money. Organized religion, on the other hand, stands or falls on the foundation of money. Apart from money, organized religion has no footing, and collapses

Oh, how perfectly true :D

I've been saying this for years. The churches talk about "revival" but the only way a true revival can come about is with the demise of organized religion. Let the government (rightfully) tax these corporations and they will fold in 2 years or less. Then all the people who go to church for the aesthetics will be weeded out, and only the hard core home fellowship types will continue on. Denominationalism would receive an immediate "mortal head wound", and the church would revert back to the original form.

 

[John the Baptist]

The Church, of which we, who are in Christ Jesus, are all members, lives and breaths apart from the foundation of money. Organized religion, on the other hand, stands or falls on the foundation of money. Apart from money, organized religion has no footing, and collapses

Oh, how perfectly true :D

I've been saying this for years. The churches talk about "revival" but the only way a true revival can come about is with the demise of organized religion. Let the government (rightfully) tax these corporations and they will fold in 2 years or less. Then all the people who go to church for the aesthetics will be weeded out, and only the hard core home fellowship types will continue on. Denominationalism would receive an immediate "mortal head wound", and the church would revert back to the original form.

*******
Wow! Very spiritual with a lot of scripture, huh? :o

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The Church, of which we, who are in Christ Jesus, are all members, lives and breaths apart from the foundation of money. Organized religion, on the other hand, stands or falls on the foundation of money. Apart from money, organized religion has no footing, and collapses

Oh, how perfectly true :D

I've been saying this for years. The churches talk about "revival" but the only way a true revival can come about is with the demise of organized religion. Let the government (rightfully) tax these corporations and they will fold in 2 years or less. Then all the people who go to church for the aesthetics will be weeded out, and only the hard core home fellowship types will continue on. Denominationalism would receive an immediate "mortal head wound", and the church would revert back to the original form.

*******
Wow! Very spiritual with a lot of scripture, huh? :o

It's already been demonstrated that scripture is wasted on you. Now it's evident that common sense is also. That you are in financial bondage to a false system that has hoodwinked you into believing that giving to it is "giving to God", is your problem, not the problem of those of us who are not as easily fooled. So wipe the foam from around your mouth :evil: and write out another check "to God" - Pastor needs a new Cadillac, and his wife is still wearing last year's jewelry.

 

[John the Baptist]

[Quote:] "That you are in financial bondage to a false system that has hoodwinked you into believing that giving to it is "giving to God", is your problem, not the problem of those of us who are not as easily fooled. So wipe the foam from around your mouth and write out another check "to God" - Pastor needs a new Cadillac, and his wife is still wearing last year's jewelry."

John here:
'Bondage'? Sorry friend, but the Lord has blessed my wife & myself very well! Neither of us are in any bondage of any kind???? See Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9! (and on top of that, you just do not READ very well either!!)

Not us chap, I love to serve my Master! He say's that if I Love Him to keep His commandments. But, I agree with you that He is correct when He suggest's that when one does not love Him that, that life is bondage. The devil is a hard taskmaster, huh!!

And by the way, my wife & I do not wear jewelry, nor do we drive a new Cadillac. We get by very well with our 99 Chevy Lumina.

Yet, please be advised that you & my rare some what like thinking alike on this, is nothing to lose any sleep over for you or your buddy! :roll:

---John

PS: And 'foam'??? Yes, all can quickly see that you are Born Again. :o

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Well, in all fairness to John, I'll go ahead and post the relevant verses that define the tithe:

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed
of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the
LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the
flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the
tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Deut 12:17-18 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of
thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the
firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of
thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill
offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
18 But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in
the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou,
and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and
thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy
gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God
in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.

Deut 14:22-23 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy
seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the
place which he shall choose to place his name there,
the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil,
and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks;
that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God
always.

Deut 14:28-29 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth
all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and
shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor
inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the
fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates,
shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the
LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine
hand which thou doest.

Now we can see from these passages, and there are more, that the tithe was food. Not one verse anywhere in the word of God defines the tithe as money from what the wage earner makes, or of these people who were required to tithe. What does that mean? Well, simply that not everyone was required to tithe in ancient Israel.

Reasonably, we are then met with the next logical question: Where in God's word did He authorize the shift away from the tithe being used for the meeting of needs and banquet celebrations over to real estate and buildings? I simply can't find it.

This obviously goes against the grain of man-made, religious conventionality, and it violates the sensibilities of religionists who think they have license to use verses out of context to their advantage in ways that clearly are not supported by the context. If anyone thinks I'm applying these verses out of context, then I'm open to correction if it can be clearly and concisely shown that this is the case.

BTW

 

[John the Baptist]

When the Godhead states that they are Everlasting, what does that mean?
When they again state that They are the same 'forever' & do 'not change' what does that mean? When they again state that there is 'no new thing under the sun'! (unless so stated) what does that mean? And??? What does EVERLASTING GOSPEL & EVERLASTING COVENANT MEAN?

It means this: You are throwing out the Eternal Gospel & *Eternal Covenant because it tells of satan's penetration into it! That is nothing new, satan's helpers are even there!! That is his business. Revelation 17:1-5.

Then: Here you come with the other end of the devil's Gospel/less extreme postings, and tell God that because satan has his agents inside of professed Christianity, you will be the 'g'od instead of the Godhead and do the Eternal Gospel your 'new way' :o .

Bottom line: Both ways are satanic!! Yet, you even destroy Christ's first four Commandments of whom to serve! THINK!!!
Serve the Godhead, without NO EVERLASTING GOSPEL??? (that includes a 'loving' required tenth of all of our 'increase' of everything!! :fadein:

Bottom line: Both of satan's ways will be found in Obadiah verse 16, along with he & his henchmen.

---John

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You said all the above at the expense of ignoring the quotes from God's word that I provided. The tithe was clearly defined as produce and herds. Why is this so difficult for you to grapple with? God's word defines things, and you are ignoring the very definitions within the Bible. Why is that? Is there an agenda here? You prvided not one reference in support of your position. Accusation answers nothing. Accusation indicates nothing more than the fact that you have no real answers to the questions, and nothing of substance to offer in rebuttal so that others can understand the basis for your beliefs. The fact that God doesn't change is a given, but offering nothing in support of organized religion being the legitimate replacement of the temple and the Levites clearly demonstrates a severe lack in your appologetic, which is no appologetic at all. In other words, trying to tear something down and errecting nothing but accusation in its place serves no purpose but to portray the desperation of your position.

Please show me where God's word made any allowance for the tithe to be used for ANYTHING outside of God's express commands for how it was to be used. Can you do that?

BTW

 

[BradtheImpaler]

And by the way, my wife & I do not wear jewelry, nor do we drive a new Cadillac. We get by very well with our 99 Chevy Lumina

Oh, wait a minute :o you're the pastor?! Well, that explains everything, doesn't it?

"Ministers say they teach charity. This is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give" (Ingersoll)

 

[John the Baptist]

Please show me where God's word made any allowance for the tithe to be used for ANYTHING outside of God's express commands for how it was to be used. Can you do that?

BTW

*******
I suggest that you have just shown your heavenly recorded record books 'bottom line' on this subject, as fully understood & rejected! Read it again. Ecclesiastes12:13-14. It was your call.

And just think, very soon now, you will be put out of your bondage! "... and [they] shall as though they had not been." Obad. 16

Think of that before falling asleep tonight!! No dreams, no more awakening, just ETERNALLY gone!! Just as though you had not been. :roll:

---John

 

[BeforeThereWas]

And by the way, my wife & I do not wear jewelry, nor do we drive a new Cadillac. We get by very well with our 99 Chevy Lumina.

We're driving a '91 Chevy Lumina that has over 200,000 miles on it, and yet I'm content. You must be pretty well off. Maybe I should start an organization and drive the stake of tithing through the people's hearts so that I too can do as well, if I were so inclined. Hmm. Naw. :P

I'd rather remain a productive citizen in my community. You see, I'm a different kind of "pastor". I don't head up an organization with the burden of a building upon our shoulders. I'm the kind of man who took my job seriously. I built up the people to maturity. They can function whether I'm there or not. The men are fully capable of teaching in my absence, even without having to have spent 12 hours of stufy to prepare for a 30 minute, Aristotilian rhetoric style sermon. I don't bore them with such things. They literally function together, meeting each other's needs and other needs in our immediate community, mutual edification, etc. They're not perfect, but then what group is perfect? The first group got so big that we had to split into two groups, and we're still growing; not because we knock on doors, but becasue people in our respective communities see the love we have one for another.

I've had "pastors" angry at me for allegedly taking membership away from them, which I did nothing of the kind. Those people were simply tired of the usual fare of churchianity, and wanted something deeper and more meaningful rather than to sit in pews or chairs fellowshipping with the backs of each other's heads. Of all th activities, prayer is the very backbone of any gathering, and most within organized religion don't practice such. Like Vernon McGee always said, Prayer changes lives. So, it's not about me, and surrounding myself with busy-bodies. It's about Christ, and Him alone.

Many talk about what a full time job pastoring is, and yet I can say that all of the ones I've ever known in my lifetime have all kinds of free time on their hands to spend with their families. Three here in my city were so flexible in their spare time that they got into some deep trouble. Two had so much time on their hands that they had to fill much of their spare time swapping wives with other congregant members in the two different wife-swapping ring scandals that made their way into the local media. The third ended up in prison down in Texas for money laundering through his "church" for a couple of federal agents posing as drug cartel. His wife was very much a part of the operation, but the feds chose not to indict her for some strange reason. She was the treasurer, for crying out loud.

That doesn't mean that all "pastors" are scoundrels, because I know some who are very dedicated believers, and genuinely believe that they're serving the Lord, and have a heart for serving others. I must have come into contact with a segment of the pastoral culture in this country and abroad that knows how to delegate much of the responsibility to others that some take upon themselves, therefore experiencing burnout.

None of these pastors I've known had that problem, but they still end up being sent on yearly vacations abroad for free, and it's all tax exempt because they're given an expense account from which to charge everything without one cent coming out of their own pockets. What a great country we have, which has people who know how to get around the income tax system for those things from which they directly benefit. I don't envy them. If it's not all about the Lord, then it's about something or someone else with whom I have no desire to be a part.

I still say that just because a man achieves a position of leadership within organized religion doesn't mean that he's a leader of Biblical calibre. Taking tithes and using them for anything but the meeting of needs is a clear demonstration of disobedience, and a form of robbing God.

BTW

 

[John the Baptist]

I still say that just because a man achieves a position of leadership within organized religion doesn't mean that he's a leader of Biblical calibre. Taking tithes and using them for anything but the meeting of needs is a clear demonstration of disobedience, and a form of robbing God.

BTW

******
Christ's Word does not dis/agree with a lot of this post of yours, yet, because the one who held the money bag (then ended up hanging himself) for Christ's new 'nucleus fold' was a tare, is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.

---John

 

[BeforeThereWas]

is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.
---John

So, you think organized religion as we know it today is a creation of Christ Himself? You obviously don't know church history. Real estate and buildings didn't become an issue until the creation of the roman catholic church by Constantine in about 323 AD. It was then that he forced the pagan temples to be converted over to "christian churches." Up to that point, believers met in homes. Smaller numbers allow for fellowship, where larger number do not allow for a truly clsoe, intimate fellowship.

Then came protestantism, which owes much to roman catholicism for its practices, one of which is to have tax exempt real estate and buildings. Most "protestants" don't have a clue just how roman cathlic they really are in how they conduct their public, corporate religious lives, real estate and buildings being the key visual feature to which I've been referring.

The "bigger is better" mentality came directly from roman catholicism. If you don't believe me, then go and read some religious history books. Read about the origins of real estate and buildings. There is one archaeological find that they think dates back to about the beginning of the third century, but they can't be sure. They dug up out of the dirt what they think APPEARS, they THINK (although not sure), to have been a common facility added onto a rich family's home. They still have no clue as to what that room was used for, so they can only speculate. That's it! Outside of that one find of which there is much speculation with no assurance, we owe the creation of organized religion, as we know it today, to roman catholicism.

Would you feel comfortable attending catholic services the rest of your life? Why not? That's where what you do came from. Why not pay homage to the birthing parent of what you do every Sunday monring, and what you have in common with your perpetual "flock"?

By the way, perpetual sheepdom of the congregation is also a creation of roman catholicism, not the word of God. We are ALL supposed to rise up to a level of maturity, which is not achieved by attending cemetary (seminary) school or Bible college. However, roman catholicism passed on to protestantism (aka, YOU) the concept and living practice of conregant members remaining in subjugation to the system of remaining a mere bleeting "sheep", never achieving the level of maturity of their "priest", "pastor", or whatever other label one may wish to ascribe to that one, or group of, men.

You see, I'm not ignorant enough to not know better than to believe the falsehood of what you're saying; that Jesus is the Founder of modern-day, organized religion. Sorry, bub, but I know better. I didn't study church history just for amusement. It's very dry reading, but I wanted to know where our practices came from. "Prove all things," Paul said.

Those references you provided, hey, I defy you to show me anything in the context that comes anywhere close to what we see going on today. Quote the relevant passages where you think that Jesus made it OK for the primary portion of believer's giving to be used for real estate and buildings. I defy, I challenge, I dare, I double-dare you to provide ANY backing for your assumptions.

Feeble statements with a couple of references for support that don't lend any support for most of what you've said, well, that just goes to show that you don't have anything for proof. You've come face to face with someone who knows better. You've run into another "pastor" who isn't so easily duped by nonsensical misrepresentations and fabrications of "facts."

Now, you can say something like, "Hey, I don't have to prove anything. I know what I believe, and I know what the scriptures say." Guess what, if the scriptures really say what you think they say, then you should have no problem quoting them, and highlighting the relevant sections.

Or, you can say something like, "Hey, I don't have to prove anything to the likes of you. I know what I believe without having to show you anything." Well, that's an admission of defeat. You lose...again. That's blind faith, of whom Jesus declared would end up falling into a ditch.

Are you a ditch-faller, or are you walking through life with genuine sight?

We shall see. Indeed, we shall see.

BTW

 

[John the Baptist]

Look, OK?? :roll:

You continually talk of [open sin] being done inside religion! This is TRUE!!!!!

Then you tell the 'heavenly record books' (forget mankind) that because of this, you have tossed out the Everlasting Gospel because of these creeps???!!! Do you not realize what that makes your message??? See Revelation 22: 18-19 & if you do not believe that the Word of God is ALL INCLUSIVE?? :
Then see Ecclesiastes 3:14

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: .."

---John

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Look, OK?? :roll:

You continually talk of [open sin] being done inside religion! This is TRUE!!!!!

Then you tell the 'heavenly record books' (forget mankind) that because of this, you have tossed out the Everlasting Gospel because of these creeps???!!! Do you not realize what that makes your message??? See Revelation 22: 18-19 & if you do not believe that the Word of God is ALL INCLUSIVE?? :
Then see Ecclesiastes 3:14

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: .."

---John

Well, this is as meaningless as most everything else you've ever said. Do you really think you're going to gain the upper hand by this cryptic, pseudo spirituality? Where did I say anything about "open sin" or "heavenly record books"? Come back down to earth, ok? This is where we temporarilly dwell for the moment. How do you figure that I've tossed out the Gosepl. At least I quote you, and state what is clearly consistent and coherent. Your responses are incoherent. If anyone else is reading all this, can you make any sense of this guy, or me? John, I seriously suspect that you either have a problem with your reading comprehension skills, or you're suffering from a severe case of self-righteous-itis. Your response is delusional. It lacks spiritual and intellectual continuity with anything I said.

If you have something to say, then say it! If not, then don't waste your time.

BTW

 

[John the Baptist]

is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.
---John

So, you think organized religion as we know it today is a creation of Christ Himself? You obviously don't know church history. Real estate and buildings didn't become an issue until the creation of the roman catholic church by Constantine in about 323 AD. It was then that he forced the pagan temples to be converted over to "christian churches." Up to that point, believers met in homes. Smaller numbers allow for fellowship, where larger number do not allow for a truly clsoe, intimate fellowship.

Then came protestantism, which owes much to roman catholicism for its practices, one of which is to have tax exempt real estate and buildings. Most "protestants" don't have a clue just how roman cathlic they really are in how they conduct their public, corporate religious lives, real estate and buildings being the key visual feature to which I've been referring.

The "bigger is better" mentality came directly from roman catholicism. If you don't believe me, then go and read some religious history books. Read about the origins of real estate and buildings. There is one archaeological find that they think dates back to about the beginning of the third century, but they can't be sure. They dug up out of the dirt what they think APPEARS, they THINK (although not sure), to have been a common facility added onto a rich family's home. They still have no clue as to what that room was used for, so they can only speculate. That's it! Outside of that one find of which there is much speculation with no assurance, we owe the creation of organized religion, as we know it today, to roman catholicism.

Would you feel comfortable attending catholic services the rest of your life? Why not? That's where what you do came from. Why not pay homage to the birthing parent of what you do every Sunday monring, and what you have in common with your perpetual "flock"?

By the way, perpetual sheepdom of the congregation is also a creation of roman catholicism, not the word of God. We are ALL supposed to rise up to a level of maturity, which is not achieved by attending cemetery (seminary) school or Bible college. However, roman catholicism passed on to protestantism (aga, YOU) the concept and living practice of conregant members remaining in subjugation to the system of remaining a mere bleeting "sheep", never achieving the level of maturity of their "priest", "pastor", or whatever other label one may wish to ascribe to that one, or group of, men.

You see, I'm not ignorant enough to not know better than to believe the falsehood of what you're saying; that Jesus is the Founder of modern-day, organized religion. Sorry, bub, but I know better. I didn't study church history just for amusement. It's very dry reading, but I wanted to know where our practices came from. "Prove all things," Paul said.

Those references you provided, hey, I defy you to show me anything in the context that comes anywhere close to what we see going on today. ...

****
John here: Surely this above stuff that you have posted up, must be classified as open sin by anyone who believes the post?????????????
****...

BTW

PS: You sound like a jesuit to me in your posting. Such as attacking the person of the message, rather than the Scriptural posting. Whatever? But just for one thought along those lines, you do know that you have a spell check on the forum, do you not? Perhaps before you go attacking another, you might see if you know anything about spelling?? There must be at least 'one' misspelled word in that post huh? :wink:

Naw: We have corresponded long enough! Titus 3:9-11