[__ Prayer __] Too Formal or not?

[jasonc]

I hate politics, to be so frank, it seems to permeate every discussion, and what they do behind close doors, even more disgusting-correct?

I was in a outreach ministry, a ministry foreign to most, diametrical opposed to the over 45, 000 denominations, and climbing-I think?

Correction must be welcomed, not shunned, but it must be done in the RIGHT manner-- and we are not "lone rangers"

Luke 17:3
“Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him (ἐπιτίμησον); and if he repents, forgive him.”

ἐπιτίμησον (epitímēson) - rebuke, an imperative verb instructing direct confrontation when a fellow believer sins.

This verse highlights the responsibility to correct (ἐπιτιμάω) a brother in love, especially when there is repentance.

2. 2 Timothy 4:2
“Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove (ἔλεγξον), rebuke (ἐπιτίμησον), exhort (παρακάλεςον), with great patience and instruction.”

ἔλεγξον (elégxon) - reprove, meaning to expose or bring to light.

ἐπιτίμησον (epitímēson) - rebuke, emphasizing a firm correction.

παρακάλεςον (parakáleson) - exhort, encouraging someone to follow the right path.

Paul instructs Timothy to balance correction (ἔλεγξον, ἐπιτίμησον) with encouragement (παρακάλεςον), showing that rebuke must be done with patience and instruction.

3. Titus 1:13
“This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them (ἔλεγχε) severely so that they may be sound in the faith.”

ἔλεγχε (elégche) - reprove, indicating a strong correction to restore sound faith.

The context shows the importance of correcting those spreading false teachings to preserve doctrinal integrity.

4. Matthew 18:15
“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault (ἔλεγξον) in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.”

ἔλεγξον (elégxon) - show him his fault, meaning to expose or confront the sin directly.

This process emphasizes a private, loving confrontation before involving others.

5. Galatians 6:1
“Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore (καταρτίζετε) such a one in a spirit of gentleness.”

καταρτίζετε (katartízete) - restore, indicating a goal of bringing the erring brother back to spiritual health.

This verse highlights that rebuke (ἔλεγξον) is not merely for condemnation but for restoration and healing.

6. James 5:19–20
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back (ἐπιστρέψῃ), let him know that he who turns (ἐπιστρέψας) a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

ἐπιστρέψῃ (epistrépsei) - turn back, actively guiding the erring one to the truth.

ἐπιστρέψας (epistrépsas) - having turned back, showing that the act of rebuking and restoring can lead to salvation from spiritual death.


Rebuking an erring believer is not merely about calling out sin but about correcting (ἐπιτίμησον), reproving (ἔλεγξον), and restoring (καταρτίζετε) in a spirit of gentleness. The goal is always to bring back (ἐπιστρέψῃ) the one who has strayed, preserving their spiritual well-being and the integrity of the faith community.

Correct? jasonc?

J.

that is how my elders see it .

 

[Johann!@#]

that is how my elders see it .

And you? How do you see it brother?

Johann.

 

[Johann!@#]

Take care, brother. I don't want to lose you because you slip up and say something a little "off beat!" ;) I don't have the money to buy you out of purgatory, nor do I have those kinds of connections.

No worries, I'm Baptist and don't believe in purgatory. So no need for "connections" Lol!

Thanks for sharing a bit of yourself, I really appreciate it brother.

Shalom to you and family.

Johann.

 

[jasonc]

And you? How do you see it brother?

Johann.

I believe how my church does it is the correct way .they use the book of discipline which is derived from the Bible and it is used with the wcf for a doctrinal position .

I should acquire one and read that it's a book of church order . I haven't in that the elders when they have acted often directly referenced the bible and that book

 

[Free]

Liturgical worship--sacramentalism or genuine?
I don't think anybody would deny that repetitious statements of love and worship for God is a bad thing. If for no other reason, repetition fixes an idea in our minds--something we need to do in our worship of God.

These generalizations will not do. As such, I deny that it is a bad thing, at least not always. Much more clarification

But can repetition lead to an excess? Can form displace substance in our liturgical worship? Of course it can!

If we, for example, wish to show our love for our wife by opening a door for her, repeating this exercise isn't any less "loving" or "real" if we do it for the thousandth time! But if in our heart we lose love for our wife, and simply open the door for her out of a formality, out of fear of social pressure, then obviously repetition does not reinforce love at all.

In our worship, our love for God should have an element of spontaneity, if our love is genuine. We don't have to be told how to perform, or cued as to when to be polite or friendly. Out of love and respect for our God we always defer to Him, humble ourselves before Him, and ask His help on all matters in order to please Him.

Obviously, in our public worship, we have to have order in order to show our love for God together with other worshipers. For this we need help from a liturgy or some kind of form that puts us all on the same page. And it helps us to steer clear of errors, reinforcing in our minds what is proper in our worship and beliefs.

I'm not at all recommending here any particular order or form that needs to be used in our church worship. I'm just advocating for "keeping it real."

The thing is, even "keeping it real" and "spontaneity" can be forms in themselves, and a lack of repetition can also lead to excess. Any which way things are done can lead to error or can keep from error.

 

[Johann!@#]

I believe how my church does it is the correct way .they use the book of discipline which is derived from the Bible and it is used with the wcf for a doctrinal position .

I should acquire one and read that it's a book of church order . I haven't in that the elders when they have acted often directly referenced the bible and that book

Plenty Imperatives in the Pauline epistles re discipline brother, plenty.

Stay strong in Messiah Jason.

Johann.

 

[RandyK]

These generalizations will not do. As such, I deny that it is a bad thing, at least not always. Much more clarification


The thing is, even "keeping it real" and "spontaneity" can be forms in themselves, and a lack of repetition can also lead to excess. Any which way things are done can lead to error or can keep from error.

Well Free, I need more clarification from you as to what you mean. Ordinarily, I agree with everything you say. I just can't see what the point of contention you have with what I said? Not saying I'm necessarily right--I just don't know where your disagreement is.

I do agree with your statement that "keeping it real" and "spontaneity" can be "forms in themselves." For me, this is sort of a truism. The point is, if things are done by mindless repetition, as if the forms themselves have spiritual value, then this needs to be challenged. I grew up in a Lutheran church that placed the premium on religious forms and liturgies, as opposed to spontaneity and creativity.

What specifically do you mean, "these generalizations will not do?" Are you questioning the idea that "opening the door for your wife," for example, is an acceptable form of love, even if it is repetetive? Does opening the door for her for the thousandths time mean it is any less "loving" then doing it only once or twice?

In the same way I would suggest nobody would deny that it is helpful to practice Communion for the thousandths time, even if it is "repetetive." Being repetetive can cause something to lose its efficacy. But it can also reinforce some things.

 

[RandyK]

No worries, I'm Baptist and don't believe in purgatory. So no need for "connections" Lol!

Thanks for sharing a bit of yourself, I really appreciate it brother.

Shalom to you and family.

Johann.

Yes, I don't believe in Purgatory either. That's why I don't have those connections! ;) Take care!

 

[jasonc]

Plenty Imperatives in the Pauline epistles re discipline brother, plenty.

Stay strong in Messiah Jason.

Johann.

they reference that .I don't fully agree with the wcf as it's reformed five points and I'm not ,allows for infant baptism and baptism by sprinkling is used .

but Im led to the former rec building that so happens to house the church .for years I read the utilities to it and even voted in it .despite the appearance of being pentacostal with the signage ,third pastor liked these signs but was reformed and a cessationist . current pastor is as well but we rent to a Spanish church and are joined at the hip to them .

the founding pastor was raised In a snake handling church in ky and became reformed but always was euciminical .my current pastor is that way . he likes to meet with other churches to reach the lost .

 

[Johann!@#]

they reference that .I don't fully agree with the wcf as it's reformed five points and I'm not ,allows for infant baptism and baptism by sprinkling is used .

No, I don't believe in infant baptism either.

but Im led to the former rec building that so happens to house the church .for years I read the utilities to it and even voted in it .despite the appearance of being pentacostal with the signage ,third pastor liked these signs but was reformed and a cessationist . current pastor is as well but we rent to a Spanish church and are joined at the hip to them .

Do you want my honest, biblical opinion? The focus here seems too centered on signs, healings, wonders, and miracles, rather than on Christ Jesus Himself. I didn’t grow up in a traditional "church" setting--I was raised in an outreach ministry.

Scriptural Perspective-
Jesus Himself cautioned against an overemphasis on signs and wonders. In Matthew 12:39, He says, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.” (Greek verbs: ἐπιζητεῖ - craves, δοθήσεται - will be given). This statement highlights that seeking signs rather than seeking God reflects a misplaced priority.

Paul also addressed this issue in 1 Corinthians 1:22–23, stating, “For indeed Jews ask for signs (ζητοῦσιν), and Greeks search for wisdom (ζητοῦσιν); but we preach Christ crucified...” (Greek verbs: ζητοῦσιν - seek, κηρύσσομεν - preach). The apostle makes it clear that the focus of the gospel is not miraculous displays but the message of the cross.

Furthermore, in Colossians 2:8, Paul warns, “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception...” (Greek verbs: Βλέπετε - see to it, συλαγωγῶν - takes captive). An overemphasis on miraculous experiences can sometimes lead to spiritual deception if it detracts from the centrality of Christ.

Staying Christ-Centered--Brother.
My concern is that when signs and wonders become the primary focus, it can lead to a shallow faith rooted in experiences rather than in the person and work of Jesus. As Paul urged in Philippians 3:10, our goal should be “to know Him and the power of His resurrection” (Greek verb: γνῶναι - to know), rather than merely seeking external manifestations.

I’m sharing this out of a desire to encourage a focus on Christ rather than on sensationalism.

Let me know your thoughts-perhaps?

the founding pastor was raised In a snake handling church in ky and became reformed but always was euciminical .my current pastor is that way . he likes to meet with other churches to reach the lost .

Read my reply above Jason. Emotionalism, sensationalism and relying on "goose bumps" is NOT the gospel.

I'm more interested in the doctrines of justification, sanctification, salvation, and the sadly neglected Holy Spirit.

Stay strong in Messiah brother, there are too many "voices" but only the true, still, kol/voice of the Spirit continually co-witnessing with your spirit that YOU are a child of YHWH.

I'm always here should you want to discuss Jason.

Johann.

 

[Johann!@#]

No, I don't believe in infant baptism either.

Do you want my honest, biblical opinion? The focus here seems too centered on signs, healings, wonders, and miracles, rather than on Christ Jesus Himself. I didn’t grow up in a traditional "church" setting--I was raised in an outreach ministry.

Scriptural Perspective-
Jesus Himself cautioned against an overemphasis on signs and wonders. In Matthew 12:39, He says, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.” (Greek verbs: ἐπιζητεῖ - craves, δοθήσεται - will be given). This statement highlights that seeking signs rather than seeking God reflects a misplaced priority.

Paul also addressed this issue in 1 Corinthians 1:22–23, stating, “For indeed Jews ask for signs (ζητοῦσιν), and Greeks search for wisdom (ζητοῦσιν); but we preach Christ crucified...” (Greek verbs: ζητοῦσιν - seek, κηρύσσομεν - preach). The apostle makes it clear that the focus of the gospel is not miraculous displays but the message of the cross.

Furthermore, in Colossians 2:8, Paul warns, “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception...” (Greek verbs: Βλέπετε - see to it, συλαγωγῶν - takes captive). An overemphasis on miraculous experiences can sometimes lead to spiritual deception if it detracts from the centrality of Christ.

Staying Christ-Centered--Brother.
My concern is that when signs and wonders become the primary focus, it can lead to a shallow faith rooted in experiences rather than in the person and work of Jesus. As Paul urged in Philippians 3:10, our goal should be “to know Him and the power of His resurrection” (Greek verb: γνῶναι - to know), rather than merely seeking external manifestations.

I’m sharing this out of a desire to encourage a focus on Christ rather than on sensationalism.

Let me know your thoughts-perhaps?


Read my reply above Jason. Emotionalism, sensationalism and relying on "goose bumps" is NOT the gospel.

I'm more interested in the doctrines of justification, sanctification, salvation, and the sadly neglected Holy Spirit.

Stay strong in Messiah brother, there are too many "voices" but only the true, still, kol/voice of the Spirit continually co-witnessing with your spirit that YOU are a child of YHWH.

I'm always here should you want to discuss Jason.

Johann.

jasonc

The Bible warns against overvaluing experiences without discernment. In Colossians 2:18 (NASB), Paul cautions: “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind.”

The Greek verb καταβραβευέτω (katabrabeuetō) means to defraud or disqualify, and ἐμβατεύων (embateuōn) means taking a stand on or dwelling on.

This verse clearly warns that relying on visions or spiritual experiences, rather than on Christ, can lead to spiritual pride and deception.

Jesus Himself warned against false claims of spiritual authority based on personal experiences in

Matthew 7:22–23 (ESV):
“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

The verb ἐροῦσιν (erousin) - will say, and ἀποκριθήσομαι (apokrithēsomai) - will declare, highlight the contrast between human claims of miraculous experiences and the Lord’s rejection of those who lack genuine relationship with Him.

Discerning Truth from Error--
John also calls for discernment in 1 John 4:1 (NASB): “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

The Greek verb δοκιμάζετε (dokimazete) - test, instructs believers to carefully examine spiritual claims rather than accepting them at face value.

In a community where dreams and visions are overly emphasized, it’s crucial to remain grounded in the Word and evaluate whether these experiences align with biblical truth. Stay discerning, brother!

You don't have to believe me, search the Scriptures Jason. if this is too complicated I can un-complicate it for you.

Johann.

 

[jasonc]

jasonc

The Bible warns against overvaluing experiences without discernment. In Colossians 2:18 (NASB), Paul cautions: “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind.”

The Greek verb καταβραβευέτω (katabrabeuetō) means to defraud or disqualify, and ἐμβατεύων (embateuōn) means taking a stand on or dwelling on.

This verse clearly warns that relying on visions or spiritual experiences, rather than on Christ, can lead to spiritual pride and deception.

Jesus Himself warned against false claims of spiritual authority based on personal experiences in

Matthew 7:22–23 (ESV):
“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

The verb ἐροῦσιν (erousin) - will say, and ἀποκριθήσομαι (apokrithēsomai) - will declare, highlight the contrast between human claims of miraculous experiences and the Lord’s rejection of those who lack genuine relationship with Him.

Discerning Truth from Error--
John also calls for discernment in 1 John 4:1 (NASB): “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

The Greek verb δοκιμάζετε (dokimazete) - test, instructs believers to carefully examine spiritual claims rather than accepting them at face value.

In a community where dreams and visions are overly emphasized, it’s crucial to remain grounded in the Word and evaluate whether these experiences align with biblical truth. Stay discerning, brother!

You don't have to believe me, search the Scriptures Jason. if this is too complicated I can un-complicate it for you.

Johann.

it wasn't signs of that sort nor feelings . I have been at my current church since 2019.

first reformed church that I have attended .no one church is perfect in theology . the five points isn't a hill to die on .

 

[Johann!@#]

first reformed church that I have attended .no one church is perfect in theology . the five points isn't a hill to die on .

TULIP? So you lean to Calvin's Institutes and theology? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

And I fully agree NO one is perfect in his/her "theology" and I noticed there is an undue focus on eschatology rather than Christology.

Paul emphasizes the foundational nature of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 (NASB):
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”

The Greek verbs παρέδωκα (paredōka) - I delivered, and ἀνέστη (anestē) - He was raised, highlight that the core message of the gospel is rooted in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Paul also urged believers to maintain unity around this truth in Ephesians 4:4–6 (ESV):
“There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

The Greek verb ἐκλήθητε (eklēthēte) - you were called, shows that our unity is grounded in one faith and one Lord, not in perfect theological alignment on every issue.

In Romans 14:1 (NASB), Paul advises, “Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.”

The Greek verb προσλαμβάνεσθε (proslambanesthe) - accept, calls for welcoming fellow believers despite differences in understanding, particularly when it comes to secondary matters.

Unified by the Gospel--
While we may have differences in theology, the essential truth of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection should unite us as believers. Dividing over non-essential theological points weakens our testimony, while standing firm on the core gospel message brings glory to Christ.

Let’s stay focused on that! Wouldn't you agree?

This is the "Hill" I will gladly die for--thanks for the chat brother.

J.

 

[jasonc]

TULIP? So you lean to Calvin's Institutes and theology? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

And I fully agree NO one is perfect in his/her "theology" and I noticed there is an undue focus on eschatology rather than Christology.

Paul emphasizes the foundational nature of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 (NASB):
“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”

The Greek verbs παρέδωκα (paredōka) - I delivered, and ἀνέστη (anestē) - He was raised, highlight that the core message of the gospel is rooted in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Paul also urged believers to maintain unity around this truth in Ephesians 4:4–6 (ESV):
“There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

The Greek verb ἐκλήθητε (eklēthēte) - you were called, shows that our unity is grounded in one faith and one Lord, not in perfect theological alignment on every issue.

In Romans 14:1 (NASB), Paul advises, “Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.”

The Greek verb προσλαμβάνεσθε (proslambanesthe) - accept, calls for welcoming fellow believers despite differences in understanding, particularly when it comes to secondary matters.

Unified by the Gospel--
While we may have differences in theology, the essential truth of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection should unite us as believers. Dividing over non-essential theological points weakens our testimony, while standing firm on the core gospel message brings glory to Christ.

Let’s stay focused on that! Wouldn't you agree?

This is the "Hill" I will gladly die for--thanks for the chat brother.

J.

no. I attend one that does .

 

[Johann!@#]

no. I attend one that does .

So, where do you stand on TULIP--would you say your position is more orthodox or unorthodox?

J.

 

[jasonc]

So, where do you stand on TULIP--would you say your position is more orthodox or unorthodox?

J.

I believe in the t,u,I,p.
not sold on limited atonement .

 

[Johann!@#]

I believe in the t,u,I,p.
not sold on limited atonement .

Glad to hear that-- I don’t mean to discourage you, but I can refute all the other petals of TULIP using Scripture.

Shalom Jason, have a blessed day in Messiah.

Johann.

 

[jasonc]

Glad to hear that-- I don’t mean to discourage you, but I can refute all the other petals of TULIP using Scripture.

Shalom Jason, have a blessed day in Messiah.

Johann.

wasn't it not you that said if we are truly saved we are always saved ? that's the p..

 

[Johann!@#]

wasn't it not you that said if we are truly saved we are always saved ? that's the p..

I can’t remember if I said that before, but now that you’ve brought it up, the perfect, aorist, and indicative forms related to our salvation indicate that it is eternal and irrevocable.

SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

Salvation (Greek Verb Tenses) -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE NEED TO PERSEVERE

Need to Persevere -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

You agree?

J.

 

[jasonc]

I can’t remember if I said that before, but now that you’ve brought it up, the perfect, aorist, and indicative forms related to our salvation indicate that it is eternal and irrevocable.

You agree?

J.

that's persevence of the saints .