total depravity

[jasoncran]

its my understanding that T in the five points is for this. this implies that man is by nature reprobate and cant redeem himself. it also implies that God contains evil by his grace.

for the eternal security pushers here this must adhered to as it implies that one can keep his soul in christ without the help christ. i also buy this idea.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

its my understanding that T in the five points is for this. this implies that man is by nature reprobate and cant redeem himself. it also implies that God contains evil by his grace.

for the eternal security pushers here this must adhered to as it implies that one can keep his soul in christ without the help christ. i also buy this idea.

Is it impossible for a Christian to have eternal security? Yes or No?

 

[jasoncran]

Is it impossible for a Christian to have eternal security? Yes or No?

not the point of this thread. this a discussion on the T in calvinism not eternal security.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

not the point of this thread. this a discussion on the T in calvinism not eternal security.

Define the T in calvinism so the readers as myself completely understand what you are trying to say and ask. Thank you.

And if "eternal security" is off topic, then why did you mention "eternal security" in your first post?

 

[jasoncran]

Define the T in calvinism so the readers as myself completely understand what you are trying to say and ask. Thank you.

And if "eternal security" is off topic, then why did you mention "eternal security" in your first post?

already did. its what i said. i said that as most here are calvinists and some deny that. when you say that a person didnt repent and wasnt saved etc that is implied in calvanism. thus the inconsistencies of non-claiming calvinists.

 

[reba]

already did. its what i said. i said that as most here are calvinists and some deny that. when you say that a person didnt repent and wasnt saved etc that is implied in calvanism. thus the inconsistencies of non-claiming calvinists.

A bit lost Jason please try again.:yes

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

its my understanding that T in the five points is for this. this implies that man is by nature reprobate and cant redeem himself. it also implies that God contains evil by his grace.

for the eternal security pushers here this must adhered to as it implies that one can keep his soul in christ without the help christ. i also buy this idea.

There are some "translations" of the Bible that use the phrase "total depravity".
RSV & NASV I think. I don't use them. The problem I see with T is that this phrase is only used twice in the Bible and each time it is used it is a discriptive of only false teachers.
The philosophical structure of Calvinism is eliteism. "We, out of all other people, have been chosen by God to be his children even before the foundation of the earth was laid." To justify this cracked pot philosophical idea of themselves it is everybody else who is totally depraved but they ain't. In my experience with members of the hierarchy of Presbyterianism, when push comes to shove the one thing all of them won't do is obey a command of Jesus when there is no other alternative. The excuse the hierarchy uses is "my church's law" does not allow me. The problem the Presbytertian has along with all the rest of us is natural birth. Every natural born person is not a child of God, Jn. 1:13, but the Calvinist even disputes this fact.

 

[Danus]

its my understanding that T in the five points is for this. this implies that man is by nature reprobate and cant redeem himself. it also implies that God contains evil by his grace.

for the eternal security pushers here this must adhered to as it implies that one can keep his soul in christ without the help christ. i also buy this idea.

OK....but before I start , It's Friday, and Friday is family movie night, then freaky Friday after the kids go to bed, so I don't have much time. What? I can't totally deprive Mrs. Danus.

We have to break up your statement a little starting with the second part. Calvinist do not believe that they are kept in Christ without Christ, but for the sake of this discussion I'm not going to use the term Calvinist unless I'm addressing the "5 points" which if you ask me is nothing more than Calvin's power-point presentation on the reformation. So I may say reformist.

However, here is a good definition of the "T" in Calvin's little presentation. This comes from a web site on Calvinism.

What is Calvinism? | The Calvinist Corner

Total Depravity:


Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).


Also...almost forgot. I know what your asking on the second part, and we'll address that. Good question and I do have the answer, but digest what I pasted and I'll address more tomorrow. Well get to the second part.

 

[francisdesales]

Is it impossible for a Christian to have eternal security? Yes or No?

Sure, when they are in heaven....

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

A bit lost Jason please try again.:yes

simple by that quoted statement.most churches are closet calvinists.

 

[Eventide]

The first pages of Genesis teach us that after the fall in the garden, that man can hear the voice of God and understand that He is calling.. and imo this is a living and powerful witness to the truth that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

 

[Danus]

simple by that quoted statement.most churches are closet calvinists.

If you mean that most churches teach the Total depravity of man in some round about way, then I'd say your right.

What Calvin was doing with his five points was trying to teach the over all philosophy of the word of God. To make it understandable. I would suggest it better to look at John Calvin for what he really was; a theologian.

Calvin is not an "ism". It's not a religion. We don't say Luther-ist, or Paul-ist, or Agustine-ist...... Why do we put this false label on John Calvin? If Calvin, Luther, Paul, or Agustine where in the same room studying the bible together they would not be fighting. Add John Wesley and you might have an argument, but not a big one.

Here is a bold statement. You will never know Gods will until you give up your own will. True or false?

Here is a cool video to explain "T"otal depravity

[video=youtube;CXBqXw8ChhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXBqXw8ChhI&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[Eventide]

Total Depravity also renders the Gospel of God concerning His Son completely powerless.. and renders the deception of Satan more powerful..

amazing isn't it.. ?

 

[Eventide]

The philosophical structure of Calvinism is eliteism.

I couldn't agree more.. so many throughout Christendom need to add some 'special' ingredient to their beliefs. For the RCC it's that they're the one true church.. for the Seventh Day Adventists it's Saturday.. for the Calvinists it's that they're the elect and that a person can't hear the gospel and believe it unless God allows it.. etc etc etc..

For some reason.. many in Christendom just need to think that they're 'special'..

 

[smaller]

Total Depravity as Calvinism/determinism defines is both wrong and false.

One reasoned critique I believe to be legitimate goes as follows:

All of Israel were taught in the O.T. to be Gods children. Do your homework and look up Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 for references.

IF they were all depraved

THEN God has fostered totally depraved children.

That logic doesn't compute.

We all know that sin is the essence of total depravity. We are advised some facts about sin and what it is:

A. Transgression of the Law(s)
B. Anything not of faith
C. Sin is of the devil

The last point above is the most important to define Total Depravity which the Calvinist/determinist positions overlook.

I think most believers would agree that the devil is totally depraved. And the devil is intimately linked to SIN.

There is a truthful definition of Total Depravity because you have the parties to the transaction on the table. Using the above we might say that mankind is NOT totally depraved, but mankind is not alone in their SIN as the devil is surely implicated in sin. So the devil is totally depraved.

In essence we have two truths simultaneously existing. One totally depraved, one not.

If you doubt the veracity of these facts any casual read through the Gospels will yield a super abundance of encounters with devils and Satan IN PEOPLE. Logic/reason then dictates that fact must be involved with any theological constructs.

Any responders, please think a bit before attempting to answer.

And as an advance disclosure I admit to being a sinner and that sin in thought, word or deed has the devil involved, period.

You and I are forgiven and saved. The devil is not.

It's that simple.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[jasoncran]

habit, lol eventide you are on that list of closet calvinists. you believe or not have to buy into the t part as how in world would you believe in eternal security and say that calvin is wrong ?
whom keeps you in christ? you, are you so holy that with christ that you wont ever walk away?

the reason i buy the concept is what i have observed.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Sure, when they are in heaven....

Regards

So you are saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for me today to have eternal security in Christ and to know I have eternal life now? Yes or No?

Before you answer, I think it's a good idea you read these verses:

1 John 5:12-13 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So now tell me.. can I KNOW I have eternal life if I have faith in Jesus the Son of God? YES OR NO?

 

[francisdesales]

So you are saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for me today to have eternal security in Christ and to know I have eternal life now? Yes or No?

Define eternal security.
Define eternal life.
What do you mean by "in Christ"?

How about "impossible"? Do you mean that literally or as a figure of speach?

And "today". Before I answer you, maybe you should clarify that, as well...

If you are going to demand "yes" or "no" answers, I must know perfectly what you mean before committing to an answer without any explanations or qualifications.

Regards

 

[reba]

for the Calvinists it's that they're the elect and that a person can't hear the gospel and believe it unless God allows it.

Its amazing that some folks believe God is in control. I note you say here 'unless God allows it' Who if not God? You , me the other guy? Christ is our Salvation!

 

[Eventide]

habit, lol eventide you are on that list of closet calvinists.

lol.. that is pretty funny.. and I'm honored to make YOUR list Jason..

you believe or not have to buy into the t part as how in world would you believe in eternal security and say that calvin is wrong ?

Right, I almost forgot.. in order to believe that a person is secure in Christ they must believe Calvinism.. lol.. that's even more funny Jason.. you're on a roll here.

whom keeps you in christ?

Let me think.. it must be John Calvin.. right ?

you, are you so holy that with christ that you wont ever walk away?

Of course Jason, that's what you want to hear right..

the reason i buy the concept is what i have observed.

Good for you Jason.. or should I say your holiness..?

I see that you chose not to comment on anything that I actually HAVE written here.. so perhaps you're in agreement with that.. or maybe you just want to play on both sides, or can't make up your mind..? NOW, would you like to stay on topic on your own thread here or discuss how holy I must be.. ?