total depravity

[reformed baptist]

There are some "translations" of the Bible that use the phrase "total depravity".
RSV & NASV I think. I don't use them. The problem I see with T is that this phrase is only used twice in the Bible and each time it is used it is a discriptive of only false teachers.

I do not see it in my bible at all :D, however the fact that a term is not found in the scripture does not prevent us from using it to explain a biblical truth does it? Or do you shy away from terms like 'trinity' for the same reason?

The philosophical structure of Calvinism is eliteism. "We, out of all other people, have been chosen by God to be his children even before the foundation of the earth was laid." To justify this cracked pot philosophical idea of themselves it is everybody else who is totally depraved but they ain't.

Firstly you have to demonstrate that it is a philosophical structure and not simply a systematic explanation of biblical truth. Then you should seek to actually understand what the calvinist teaches, they is no room for elitism in calvinistic doctrine my freind, for salvation is all of God. It is the Arminian and Semi-Pelagian that has an elitist theology. For they are ones who believe they are better then all others because they have taken advantage of God's prevenient grace.

In my experience with members of the hierarchy of Presbyterianism, when push comes to shove the one thing all of them won't do is obey a command of Jesus when there is no other alternative. The excuse the hierarchy uses is "my church's law" does not allow me.

eh, my freind, I believe your experience must be very limited!

The problem the Presbytertian has along with all the rest of us is natural birth. Every natural born person is not a child of God, Jn. 1:13, but the Calvinist even disputes this fact.

Well I assume you can us all where their doctrinalk standards, ie the Westminster confession of faith, says such a thing can you?

 

[Eventide]

ok let me put it this way. they rejected his love.

Jason, this comment leads me to think that you do not understand reformed theology.. because in RT the 'they' would be the non elect.. 'They' were not regenerated FIRST in order to believe God and receive the love of the truth whereas the Unconditionally Elected ones DID.. for absolutely no reason.. ie, they believe that they were unconditionally chosen.

So imo this comment misses the point entirely.

if your son or daughter killed someone would they still be special to you, if they had no remorse for their actions?

I can's speak for everyone, although they sure would be special to me.. they're my own children ! If we look to the scriptures for an example we could see King David (a man after His own heart) who wept for Absalom despite his iniquity. I would think that the LORD's heart is infinitely more compassionate than that toward those who do perish and who reject the love of the truth that they might be saved..

and you do really understand this. i disagree with it, but childeye made me think. God has allowed sin to be. he set adam and eve up with two choices. to sin and reject him and or not to sin. eve was decieved adam wasnt.

Yes, we see DECEPTION and DISOBEDIENCE in the garden and the LORD covered them both.. and imo Romans 5:18 could not be more clear in showing us that by the righteousness of one (the Last Adam) that the free gift has come upon all men to justification of life.. Romans 3 teaches that His grace is unto all and that it is upon all who believe. Paul writes that He is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe..

BUT AGAIN.. the bottom line in RT is that God must regenerate a person FIRST in order for them to believe, and that these are the 'unconditionally elected' or chosen ones.. the non elect are not regenerated so they can't believe.

God has limited our free will to the the point that we can only do x amount of evil. and what ever good in his eyes is also controlled.some will reject christ.

AGAIN, the unconditionally elect are regenerated so that they will believe.. this is called monergism.. God alone doing everything for the unconditionally elect or chosen ones.

my view of that is the atoning is only applied to the sinner who repents for if it wasnt then hitler was saved and in his heaven as we speak.

Atonement means to be AT ONE with God.. and of course only those who receive the free gift are at one with God.. those who reject the free gift are still at enmity with God.. this doesn't mean that they can't be saved. Hitler will be raised from the dead.. and judged accordingly.. and if the wages of sin is death, and he will be raised.. then to me that means that his sin was covered by the precious shed blood of Christ.. BUT there's also a second death.. and that will be for those who persist in sin regardless of the Spirit of grace which was bestowed upon them.. and they're going to be without excuse.

if we are all honest with ourselves at times the lord has witheld the normal reactions of our mistakes. i know he has with me. i have heard christians(ERE SALVATION) who were drunk and driving and or feel asleep BEHIND THE wheel come home uninjured. is that not God denying the actions of a freewill decision? he does do that.

I see it almost completely opposite Jason.. God does chastise His own and conforms them to the image of His Son.. this is not always pleasant although certainly for good.

i think the issue is that we humans are trying to understand how God works with such limited and primitive brains. God works in ways we cant.i disagree with much of calvinism but i cant say that i'm not wrong either.i have never heard them say i'm special.

We're called to be of the same mind which is in Christ.. we have the mind of Christ.. although there's a massive disconnect between thinking that God chose me for no reason (unconditionally) while not affording the same grace to all in Adam as compared to a mind which believes that He offered Himself for all in Adam and that we're all in the same boat so to speak.. and that we're all offered the same free gift.. not just the elect.. not just the ones which He died for, but for all men..

IMO it all comes down to a false understanding of ELECTION... men being led to believe that they're the elect, that God chose them.. although all election is in Christ.. it's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me.. my hope of glory.

 

[reba]

eventide Please dont just throw me your canned answer.


Sam and Joe are buddies.. they party hardy together drugs girls booze you get the idea... one day Joe just says "Lord Jesus come into my heart". What happened to change Joe's heart?

 

[Eventide]

eventide Please dont just throw me your canned answer.

I sorry you feel this way Reba.. I've written detailed comments relative to the topic and this is your response to them.. ? These are real thoughts and concerns coming from a person who shares the same mind with many others in Christ.. with respect to this serious topic.

Sam and Joe are buddies.. they party hardy together drugs girls booze you get the idea... one day Joe just says "Lord Jesus come into my heart". What happened to change Joe's heart?

In a general sense this is what happens.. and what happens to all men imo..

Christ is that true light which lighteth every MAN that comes into the world.. We know that the Spirit of God tesifies of Christ and convinces men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Paul tells us plainly that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER we heard the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER we believed, that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise.. THEN we were baptized into that ONE BODY by the same Spirit.. we THEN became members of the BODY OF CHRIST..

I believe this is what the scriptures teach in their simplicity and truth.. that in Adam all are lost and need to be born again.. and that the free gift has come upon all men.. and that by trusting in God's Son for the forgiveness of our sins, and believing the gospel.. God seals that faith and places us into Christ..

 

[reba]

Thanks Eventide!

That was not the canned answer. Sorry i have missed your uncanned answers. :yes None of us have read the whole of the forums......

I am not one sided on this topic. My heart/mind goes back and forth.

John 3:16 and Eph 1:4 are both the Word of God.


But you did not tell me what happened to change Joe's heart. Did he just wake up one day and ask Jesus into his heart? Can we agree he had to have had a change of heart?

This is not a question to try and trap you I am truly wondering what your thoughts are. Plus i dont have the word skills to trap anyone.

 

[childeye]

I think this issue is debating semantics. What is total and I mean total depravity? Death? The Arminians and Calvinists are just arguing degrees.

 

[jasoncran]

that wasnt chastitesment for those christians, they were sinners when they did that. instead of letting them die he spared them.

years ago when i was in afghanistian i asked God to spare men who i saw drown, they went down the river. i watched them and couldnt help them so i asked God to spare them and i heard him say' because you have asked i will spare them." i told the lord these are sinners. if they die hell will be there home.

so if you believe God is omniscient did such a day ever suprise him? God knows our needs before we ask. surely God knew that in july 2004 that was going to happen and put the desire in me to pray for them. whom is that regenerated spirit that is from God,to whom does it act on and obey?


yes, God didnt make me but he did teach me to be that concern or put the thought to pray for them. i have also seen persons and the hs tell me pray for them for this and ask them or rather tell them that God does know there situation. its not that often for me save that pray for the lost and missing persons deal.

 

[Eventide]

But you did not tell me what happened to change Joe's heart. Did he just wake up one day and ask Jesus into his heart?

Reba, it depends..

If Joe is a Calvinist.. then he'd be led to believe that God regenerated him first so that he could believe.. although he wouldn't need to ask Jesus into his heart because he would already be regenerated.

If Joe was just about any other flavor of believer.. then he would be convicted of his sin, of Christ's righteousness, and of the judgment to come.. he would experience Godly sorrow and the goodness of God would lead him to repentance.. and he would trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins.. and then God would baptize him into that one body by the Spirit.. after he trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after he believed.

Can we agree he had to have had a change of heart.

Absolutely..

 

[Eventide]

that wasnt chastitesment for those christians, they were sinners when they did that. instead of letting them die he spared them.

years ago when i was in afghanistian i asked God to spare men who i saw drown, they went down the river. i watched them and couldnt help them so i asked God to spare them and i heard him say' because you have asked i will spare them." i told the lord these are sinners. if they die hell will be there home.

so if you believe God is omniscient did such a day ever suprise him? God knows our needs before we ask. surely God knew that in july 2004 that was going to happen and put the desire in me to pray for them. whom is that regenerated spirit that is from God,to whom does it act on and obey?


yes, God didnt make me but he did teach me to be that concern or put the thought to pray for them. i have also seen persons and the hs tell me pray for them for this and ask them or rather tell them that God does know there situation. its not that often for me save that pray for the lost and missing persons deal.

Jason, imo you're the closet Calvinist.. lol

 

[mondar]

I do not see it in my bible at all :D, however the fact that a term is not found in the scripture does not prevent us from using it to explain a biblical truth does it? Or do you shy away from terms like 'trinity' for the same reason?



Firstly you have to demonstrate that it is a philosophical structure and not simply a systematic explanation of biblical truth. Then you should seek to actually understand what the calvinist teaches, they is no room for elitism in calvinistic doctrine my freind, for salvation is all of God. It is the Arminian and Semi-Pelagian that has an elitist theology. For they are ones who believe they are better then all others because they have taken advantage of God's prevenient grace.



eh, my freind, I believe your experience must be very limited!



Well I assume you can us all where their doctrinalk standards, ie the Westminster confession of faith, says such a thing can you?

Hello Reformed Baptist. It is good to see someone here that actually knows what terms mean and is not misrepresenting things. I rarely come here, but it would be good to interact with you. One of the problems in this thread is few actually know what a Calvinist is, or an Arminian. Few have read the Westminster Confession. I assume that because of your nick, you are in agreement with the 1689?

 

[Eventide]

Hello Reformed Baptist. It is good to see someone here that actually knows what terms mean and is not misrepresenting things.

I feel your pain.. I can't tell you how many times that I've been told that I must consider myself better than those who do not believe.. or my favorite.. that I saved myself..

 

[mondar]

I feel your pain.. I can't tell you how many times that I've been told that I must consider myself better than those who do not believe.. or my favorite.. that I saved myself..

Eventide, things get unfortunately emotional in this forum. This is certainly not academia here. Insults are thrown. People just want to win an argument. Are you sure you never got angry or just hurled insults, or misrepresented Calvinism?

My disappointment is that so few on these threads go to the bother of understanding what an Arminian or a Calvinist actually was and is. The Five points of the Remonstrants had total depravity in the 3ird point and so many in this thread seem unaware of that fact.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Eventide, things get unfortunately emotional in this forum. This is certainly not academia here. Insults are thrown. People just want to win an argument. Are you sure you never got angry or just hurled insults, or misrepresented Calvinism?

My disappointment is that so few on these threads go to the bother of understanding what an Arminian or a Calvinist actually was and is. The Five points of the Remonstrants had total depravity in the 3ird point and so many in this thread seem unaware of that fact.

Arminian or Calvinist? Neither is any better than the other. Both have the same error.

 

[francisdesales]

Arminian or Calvinist? Neither is any better than the other. Both have the same error.

:p

Buckle up, boys....

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, things get unfortunately emotional in this forum.

Can two walk together except they be agreed ? There are significant differences in the way that many of us believe and imo that's perfectly normal..

This is certainly not academia here. Insults are thrown. People just want to win an argument. Are you sure you never got angry or just hurled insults, or misrepresented Calvinism?

I don't understand why it's often about winning an argument.. if we'd all realize that it's ok to share opinions on matters and not be suprised if we're not all in agreement.. that is fine. And I'm sure that I've been angry in a poor way and in a Godly way.. it's good to be angry at what we consider blatant false teaching.. it would be poor to simply be angry because somebody calls us on our beliefs.. and disagrees with our opinion.

My disappointment is that so few on these threads go to the bother of understanding what an Arminian or a Calvinist actually was and is. The Five points of the Remonstrants had total depravity in the 3ird point and so many in this thread seem unaware of that fact.

I think that these things are simple.. it's not difficult to understand at all.. for example; what I consider the bottom line in RT.. that God must regenerate a person in order for them to believe.. etc.. that's not difficult to understand.. and I think that it's a blatant contradiction to the truth of God's word. It results in so many being led to believe that they're the elect and that God chose them unconditionally..

Again, imo not at all difficult to understand.. although impossible to agree with..

 

[mondar]

Arminian or Calvinist? Neither is any better than the other. Both have the same error.

Can you tell me what Arminians and Calvinists believe?

 

[mondar]

Can two walk together except they be agreed ? There are significant differences in the way that many of us believe and imo that's perfectly normal..



I don't understand why it's often about winning an argument.. if we'd all realize that it's ok to share opinions on matters and not be suprised if we're not all in agreement.. that is fine. And I'm sure that I've been angry in a poor way and in a Godly way.. it's good to be angry at what we consider blatant false teaching.. it would be poor to simply be angry because somebody calls us on our beliefs.. and disagrees with our opinion.



I think that these things are simple.. it's not difficult to understand at all.. for example; what I consider the bottom line in RT.. that God must regenerate a person in order for them to believe.. etc.. that's not difficult to understand.. and I think that it's a blatant contradiction to the truth of God's word. It results in so many being led to believe that they're the elect and that God chose them unconditionally..

Again, imo not at all difficult to understand.. although impossible to agree with..

Would you like to see some of the biblical evidence?

 

[Eventide]

Would you like to see some of the biblical evidence?

Sure, and as mentioned, it's fine to share our thoughts and opinion on these matters.. and I think that I've seen all the evidence already and have come to drastically different conclusions.. although you're obviously welcome to present your case, right ?

 

[adelphos]

Sure, and as mentioned, it's fine to share our thoughts and opinion on these matters.. and I think that I've seen all the evidence already and have come to drastically different conclusions.. although you're obviously welcome to present your case, right ?

Hi,

This debate is very serious for some, especially those in the Calvinist camps, in my opinion. Many seem to actually believe that if one does not hold their position, one is lost. Sad really.

Respectfully,

Adelphos

 

[ivdavid]

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

How does one interpret what's meant by the "flesh" here?

Are we to take John 6:63 and Romans 7:18 literally and conclude that there is nothing good in the flesh and hence it profits nothing?

Are we to take Romans 8:7-8 literally and conclude that the flesh cannot submit to God's law and hence can never be pleasing to God?