total depravity

[Eventide]

Its amazing that some folks believe God is in control. I note you say here 'unless God allows it' Who if not God? You , me the other guy? Christ is our Salvation!

Yeah, God allows it for the unconditionally ELECTed ones.. the ones He chooses.. ya know, like He chose His Son.. all the rest are just out of luck..

I find it amazing Reba that some people believe that..

 

[Eventide]

imo I think that TD is very subtle in its deception... so for the sake of giving it a quantitative scale, I'll say that it's perhaps 99% true and 1% false.. there are SO MANY things that are true about our Adamic nature being in ruin because of sin.

Although TD ultimately teaches a person that they could not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unless God regenerated them FIRST.. and imo this is biblically wrong (although subtle) and not a good thing to be teaching Christians.. especially babes in Christ.. because it leads to thinking that God had to chose YOU.. and that's another very subtle deception imo..

In all cases God clearly acts first.. and He reveals Himself through the gospel.. and Paul teaches very clearly that it was after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER we believed, that it was THEN that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise.. the earnest of our inheritance in Him which is to the praise of HIS glory !

We're not sealed before we believe.. we're sealed AFTER we hear the gospel and believe..

What must I do to be saved ?

IMO Romans 4 seals the deal.. because it provides the ultimate example in Abraham.. and how that he was justified by believing God.. and God then gave him the sign of circumcision which is the SEAL (remember from Eph 1:13) of faith.. the faith which he had BEFORE he was circumcised.

So..... Can men hear the voice of God today like Adam heard in the garden many years ago ? Or is that just some story about him alone..?

Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart !

We're all in the exact same condition which he found himself and his wife in long ago and God is still calling all men in Adam in a living and powerful way.. and not only that.. He alone provided a covering for Adam and his wife.. the mother of ALL living.. not just the ones who might think that they're the elect, but for all..

Teaching young Christians that God had to enable them to believe (while not affording this same grace to all in Adam) ultimately leads to one thing.. and that's the most subtle deception of all imo.. that God chose YOU.. that YOU're the ELECT... regardless of His plain statement right here in the gospel..

If any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me..

God is calling all men in Adam, though He chooses none in Adam, but every single one in Christ.. the Last Adam.

 

[Danus]

Here are a few more sticking points to clear up.

1. There is no such thing as a "Calvinist" or "Calvinism". That suggest that Calvin is a religions movement of some kind. John Calvin was a Christian preacher. He was a brilliant thinker and philosopher who was trying to do nothing more than explain the scriptures.

2. The thoughts against John Calvin's points and teaching, that I've seen anyway, do not point to holes in John's Calvin's teachings, but rather misunderstandings of John Calvin's teachings.....some gross misunderstandings, and some more subtle.

However, while there is no shame in not understanding John Calvin, there is, I think, a degree of shame in not understanding scripture, and I think we can all agree there is "Total" shame in misrepresenting scripture for one's own purpose.

Since I do not think anyone here is misrepresenting scripture for their own purpose, I have to believe folks are simply not understanding John Calvin; either by simply not understanding or by a refusal to understand, by way of an honest consideration.

One thing for sure, people often get hung up on the meaning of words. In this case the word "Total" is often a stumbling block.

I am not going to argue anyone on any of these points, but I do want to help clear up misunderstandings. With that, I have another video.

Here are two fairly well respected theologians of our time discussing Total depravity. This is John Piper and Rick Warren discussing Total depravity. Please listen. Warren has a good explanation.


[video=youtube;_czkQ-3Vo1E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_czkQ-3Vo1E&feature=player_embedded[/video]

John Piper Interviews Rick Warren on Total Depravity - YouTube

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

imo I think that TD is very subtle in its deception... so for the sake of giving it a quantitative scale, I'll say that it's perhaps 99% true and 1% false.. there are SO MANY things that are true about our Adamic nature being in ruin because of sin.

Although TD ultimately teaches a person that they could not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unless God regenerated them FIRST.. and imo this is biblically wrong (although subtle) and not a good thing to be teaching Christians.. especially babes in Christ.. because it leads to thinking that God had to chose YOU.. and that's another very subtle deception imo..

In all cases God clearly acts first.. and He reveals Himself through the gospel.. and Paul teaches very clearly that it was after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER we believed, that it was THEN that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise.. the earnest of our inheritance in Him which is to the praise of HIS glory !

We're not sealed before we believe.. we're sealed AFTER we hear the gospel and believe..

What must I do to be saved ?

IMO Romans 4 seals the deal.. because it provides the ultimate example in Abraham.. and how that he was justified by believing God.. and God then gave him the sign of circumcision which is the SEAL (remember from Eph 1:13) of faith.. the faith which he had BEFORE he was circumcised.

So..... Can men hear the voice of God today like Adam heard in the garden many years ago ? Or is that just some story about him alone..?

Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart !

We're all in the exact same condition which he found himself and his wife in long ago and God is still calling all men in Adam in a living and powerful way.. and not only that.. He alone provided a covering for Adam and his wife.. the mother of ALL living.. not just the ones who might think that they're the elect, but for all..

Teaching young Christians that God had to enable them to believe (while not affording this same grace to all in Adam) ultimately leads to one thing.. and that's the most subtle deception of all imo.. that God chose YOU.. that YOU're the ELECT... regardless of His plain statement right here in the gospel..

If any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me..

God is calling all men in Adam, though He chooses none in Adam, but every single one in Christ.. the Last Adam.

Would you define the term IMO?
1. According to Jesus it is not possible for a position of belief if it is 1% error, leavened, and not to be 100% error.
2. TD is a cover up for the word substitutionary.
3. The error of Calvinism is exposed by the false assertion of being chosen by God to be a child of God prior to the foundation of the world. If this assertion is true the crucifixion of Jesus is unnecessary for salvation or anything else for that matter. For those chosen, if so, the only requirment for them is to be naturally born. But every natural born person is not a child of God because of natural birth.
Which is why the birth of Jesus was not natural.

 

[Eventide]

Would you define the term IMO?

IMO = In My Opinion

1. According to Jesus it is not possible for a position of belief if it is 1% error, leavened, not to be 100% error.

I understand what you're saying.. I was only trying to illustrate that deception is often subtle.

2. TD is a cover up for the word substitutionary.

Not sure what you mean here.

3. The error of Calvinism is exposed by the false assertion of being chosen by God to be a child of God prior to the foundation of the world.

There's truth to the fact that God chose all things IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world because He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation etc.. and it should be clear in scripture that God knows and foretells the end from the beginning in every way imaginable.. I think that many get foreknowledge confused with deterministic thinking.. although for God to have chosen the 'church of God' to be His bride from before the foundation of the world in no way demands that individuals were preselected to be that church.. but rather whosoever would trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins through His precious shed blood.

Eph 1 says that He chose US.. not individuals.. Paul is writing to the church of God.. His future bride to be.. the pearl of great price which He purchased by selling all that He had, giving His only begotten Son for us.. to make this into an individual doctrine misses the entire thrust of it imo.

If this assertion is true the crucifixion of Jesus is unnecessary for salvation or anything else for that matter. For those chosen, if so, the only requirment for them is to be naturally born. But every natural born person is not a child of God because of natural birth.
Which is why the birth of Jesus was not natural.

I think it's that obvious..

FLESH gives birth to flesh..

SPIRIT gives birth to Spirit..

It's obvious which one is the elect.. the chosen of God.. and it's not the flesh.

 

[reba]

Yeah, God allows it for the unconditionally ELECTed ones.. the ones He chooses.. ya know, like He chose His Son.. all the rest are just out of luck..

I find it amazing Reba that some people believe that..

Eventide i have a hard time following your thoughts. I dont understand your use of the word 'luck'.

Salvation has nothing what so ever to do with 'luck'. IMO to equate salvation and luck is so demeaning to the Cross of Christ. I dont believe for one minute you devalue the Cross! So help me understand what you say.

In a few past posts you have lumped me in to the 'Calvin camp' and you dont know me or my history. This is once again an attempt to find some form of dialog with you.....:yes

 

[Eventide]

Eventide i have a hard time following your thoughts. I dont understand your use of the word 'luck'.

Salvation has nothing what so ever to do with 'luck'. IMO to equate salvation and luck is so demeaning to the Cross of Christ. I dont believe for one minute you devalue the Cross! So help me understand what you say.

Yes, perhaps luck is a poor choice of words.. how about 'chance'..? With respect to Unconditional Election, those who are not the elect have zero chance of being saved.

In a few past posts you have lumped me in to the 'Calvin camp' and you dont know me or my history. This is once again an attempt to find some form of dialog with you.....:yes

To me it's not about Calvin or Hobbs.. it's about what's true and what's not.. there's lot's of deception in the world today and much of what comes across as truth is imo, false doctrine.. and I know that door swings both ways.

 

[reba]

As stated many time i have never studied Calvin's works or any of the other old guys.

To my mind/heart unconditional election means I did not have to clean up my act to be saved.

The Good Shepard found this lost sheep i was tangled in sin and He came looking for me. He found me in the sinful condition and loved me unconditionally.

Isn't that how he found you? in sin? Did you as a lost sheep go looking for Him? You did not stop sinning and say to Him " Look LOOK at me i am now in good condition You can now save me? He saves us reguardless of our sinful condition.

This is my take on some "catch words" we dont all fit into a neat little box..

I take it from your avatar you play in a band. ACDC is a band but you dont fit into their box...

We use words, in a forum, along with a few smilelys to help us to grasp what the other guy is saying. Some times those words are labels but labels don't fit 100% of the time.....

 

[Danus]

As stated many time i have never studied Calvin's works or any of the other old guys.

To my mind/heart unconditional election means I did not have to clean up my act to be saved.

The Good Shepard found this lost sheep i was tangled in sin and He came looking for me. He found me in the sinful condition and loved me unconditionally.

Isn't that how he found you? in sin? Did you as a lost sheep go looking for Him? You did not stop sinning and say to Him " Look LOOK at me i am now in good condition You can now save me? He saves us reguardless of our sinful condition.

basically Calvin would agree, in his over complicated explanation of a simple truth., But I feel the need to provide the complicated version as well for anyone's consumption.

[video=youtube;YfyU1rF0Wcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfyU1rF0Wcc&feature=player_embedded[/video]

[video=youtube;ulHddxQ__9E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulHddxQ__9E&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[Eventide]

As stated many time i have never studied Calvin's works or any of the other old guys.

To my mind/heart unconditional election means I did not have to clean up my act to be saved.

The Good Shepard found this lost sheep i was tangled in sin and He came looking for me. He found me in the sinful condition and loved me unconditionally.

This is not even remotely close to the reformed meaning of unconditional election.

Isn't that how he found you? in sin? Did you as a lost sheep go looking for Him? You did not stop sinning and say to Him " Look LOOK at me i am now in good condition You can now save me? He saves us reguardless of our sinful condition.

There was a condition for God saving me just as there is for all men in Adam.. belief of the truth.. and this is the truth of scripture; that after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after we believed, then God sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise.

God choosing us to salvation is conditional upon sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. It's a simple biblical fact.

 

[reba]

Thanks Even i think i understand you a bit better, i hope the same for me.

You one day decided to trust God and He saved you. Cool :yes

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

IMO = In My Opinion



I understand what you're saying.. I was only trying to illustrate that deception is often subtle.



Not sure what you mean here.



There's truth to the fact that God chose all things IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world because He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation etc.. and it should be clear in scripture that God knows and foretells the end from the beginning in every way imaginable.. I think that many get foreknowledge confused with deterministic thinking.. although for God to have chosen the 'church of God' to be His bride from before the foundation of the world in no way demands that individuals were preselected to be that church.. but rather whosoever would trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins through His precious shed blood.

Eph 1 says that He chose US.. not individuals.. Paul is writing to the church of God.. His future bride to be.. the pearl of great price which He purchased by selling all that He had, giving His only begotten Son for us.. to make this into an individual doctrine misses the entire thrust of it imo.



I think it's that obvious..

FLESH gives birth to flesh..

SPIRIT gives birth to Spirit..

It's obvious which one is the elect.. the chosen of God.. and it's not the flesh.

Thanks for defining IMO. I'm a little before the mods of contemporary "English".
Re. "Not sure what you mean here"_ substitutionary atonement
Granted one can sacrifice an animal by bloodshed in his place, however taking the life of any man by bloodshed is an entirely different matter. The TD doctrine in Calvinism is a slide around the complication of SA being the foundation of Calvinism. Rationally if SA is true then all persons who have been "saved" are all persons. But the factor of natural birth not ever going to be accredited as having produced any child of God does not just discredit TD. A little leaven leavens the whole lump i.e. belief system.

 

[jasoncran]

lol.. that is pretty funny.. and I'm honored to make YOUR list Jason..



Right, I almost forgot.. in order to believe that a person is secure in Christ they must believe Calvinism.. lol.. that's even more funny Jason.. you're on a roll here.



Let me think.. it must be John Calvin.. right ?



Of course Jason, that's what you want to hear right..



Good for you Jason.. or should I say your holiness..?

I see that you chose not to comment on anything that I actually HAVE written here.. so perhaps you're in agreement with that.. or maybe you just want to play on both sides, or can't make up your mind..? NOW, would you like to stay on topic on your own thread here or discuss how holy I must be.. ?

its not about holiness but i find it curious that the churches or deny calvin and yet claim the idea of perservance of the saints.

they are connected. that in part is why i said that. i have been well busy doing other far more important things.


for the record i am not anywhere near john calvin. i am just the opposite for the most part. i listen to a calvinist pastor and it also lead to this thread. theres not much difference in what you say. it appears that you confuse hyper calvinism with calvinism that sbg57 preaches. most reformers are if they are honest with themselves humble by the fact god did save them. they see no good in themselves or being special about it.

you claim that all the time. not all calvinists are like some here.

 

[jasoncran]

ov vey, a head ache. oh well i will bite this.

could it be that god reveals himself to the sinner who is totaly depraved and they decide to let him and acknowlege the need to be forgiven.

one cant know if one is a sinner till you are a told, but you must confess that to be saved. i dont see how td denies what is in the bible. it merely says we cant on our own come to christ. he reveals himself first. i think eventide you are including the idea of election with td as i am not.

i havent watch the posted videos to see what is said.

 

[Danus]

Thank you Jason.

I respect the Armenian view BTW (By the way). I'm not going to say it's wrong all together because it's not, but I think also that for those who don't understand Calvin, it would be better to make a deeper study of it, or ask questions, before going off with bold statements that show a lack of understanding.

I tried not to put my opinion on your thread. Rather I posted sources that can speak on the theology far better than I can.

I would like to say though, That we all need to be a little more respectful of each other and perhaps more careful in what we say. In the end we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Most of the people, I think, on this site are not theologians, or have even gone to seminary. Most people here are just people seeking God and studying the word of God. We all seek resources and answers where we can to further our own understanding and reconciliation of the scriptures. What might not make seance to one, may make perfect seance to another, and we each have our reason for that, but we have the same God. ;)

 

[Eventide]

its not about holiness but i find it curious that the churches or deny calvin and yet claim the idea of perservance of the saints.

they are connected. that in part is why i said that.

Do you actually believe that a person needs to embrace reformed theology in order to believe that they're secure in Christ ?

i have been well busy doing other far more important things.

What could be more important than me being on the closet calvinist list Jason.. lol

for the record i am not anywhere near john calvin. i am just the opposite for the most part. i listen to a calvinist pastor and it also lead to this thread. theres not much difference in what you say. it appears that you confuse hyper calvinism with calvinism that sbg57 preaches. most reformers are if they are honest with themselves humble by the fact god did save them. they see no good in themselves or being special about it.

you claim that all the time. not all calvinists are like some here.

I listened to Calvinist preachers before and of course we have much in common.. it's the things which we don't agree on that typically form the discussions which we have.. and I understand the SBG is a hyper Calvinist although that doesn't mean that your average Calvinist doesn't embrace the TULIP.. and the bottom line in this is that man must first be regenerated before he can believe.. it's unscriptural and as mentioned.. it ultimately leads to thinking that God chose you, because in their thinking they certainly couldn't believe HIM... even after hearing the gospel ! !

IMO that's special.. and of course believing that God unconditional CHOSE THEM is special no matter how you slice it.. that doesn't mean that it's bad.. it means that it's a 'special case' within Christendom.. just like those who are led to believe that they're the one true church.. it doesn't mean that they're boasting in that per say (although they could) but rather that it's a special case within their theology.

Obviously you could say that what I believe is 'special'.. and I understand that.. what I mean is that there are certain aspects of theology which are not common to all Christians in general..

 

[jasoncran]

to answer that secure in christ as you say it.
so then when one implies that and the christian walks aways from christ the typical answer is that they werent saved in the first place or that God will let them in to heaven but at the bema seat judgment they will be judge for that. really god would allow his own to mock him.

we dont expect ourselves and i wouldnt do that to my wife!if i told her i love and never spent time witkh her and demonstrated it she would rightly doubt that i do love or ever did.

and yes i can get distracted as it happens to us all, but its also possible to say that a person can love someone and then also not love them anymore. thus a divorce. people do fall out of love. and i can and do see that is possible with our relationship with God.

ok,let me ask you this. You while you were a sinner werent worthy dying for? what motivated God to die for you, to pay for your sins?

it was love. we are his creations, and in his desire to save and us redeem us he sent his son. that kinda makes us all special to him.

God dont redeem mr.kittty,the mr.mut etc but only humans.

 

[Mike]

In keeping with Danus' overture, let's see if we can keep the tone from one of condemnation. I know this is the "Snake Pit" and not the CT&A, but it would be fruitful for both sides to try to defend our own stance without saying the other side is all wrong.

I do believe in Free Will and that He desires all come to know Him, but I also believe He has His Plan which includes where and when we are born and that He Gives us the capacity to believe. IMO, we are dependent on Him lifting the veil, and sometimes this doesn't happen. But I believe in these times, it isn't a "No, you're not Mine"; It's more "Not now. Your faith will be used by Me more perfectly at another time, according to My Plan."

I see this as pulling a little from the Calvin doctrine.

 

[Eventide]

ok,let me ask you this. You while you were a sinner werent worthy dying for? what motivated God to die for you, to pay for your sins?

it was love. we are his creations, and in his desire to save and us redeem us he sent his son. that kinda makes us all special to him.

God dont redeem mr.kittty,the mr.mut etc but only humans.

What about those who they claim that He did NOT die for Jason.. the ones who are NOT the unconditionally elect ?

Evidently they're not special in that sense..

I'm sorry to say this, but limited atonement and unconditional election theology makes me sick for that reason.

 

[jasoncran]

ok let me put it this way. they rejected his love. if your son or daughter killed someone would they still be special to you, if they had no remorse for their actions?

and you do really understand this. i disagree with it, but childeye made me think. God has allowed sin to be. he set adam and eve up with two choices. to sin and reject him and or not to sin. eve was decieved adam wasnt.

God has limited our free will to the the point that we can only do x amount of evil. and what ever good in his eyes is also controlled.some will reject christ.

my view of that is the atoning is only applied to the sinner who repents for if it wasnt then hitler was saved and in his heaven as we speak.

if we are all honest with ourselves at times the lord has witheld the normal reactions of our mistakes. i know he has with me. i have heard christians(ERE SALVATION) who were drunk and driving and or feel asleep BEHIND THE wheel come home uninjured. is that not God denying the actions of a freewill decision? he does do that.

i think the issue is that we humans are trying to understand how God works with such limited and primitive brains. God works in ways we cant.i disagree with much of calvinism but i cant say that i'm not wrong either.i have never heard them say i'm special.