Total Depravity

[turnorburn]

When God is speaking to us through his word he's speaking to those those of us that are his whether it be Jew or Gentile..

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

tob

 

[reba]

Butch5 nice reply thanks .. something to ponder

 

[eddif]

When God is speaking to us through his word he's speaking to those those of us that are his whether it be Jew or Gentile..

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

tob

The promise to Abraham was accomplished on the cross (it is finished).

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, eventhe law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

I Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Prophetically Jesus death was prophesied in the OT, and in the NT he is told to be slain from the Foundation of the earth.

In time we read two places that salvation (forgiveness of sins) occurred on the cross (in his flesh).

To become one Gentiles accept Jews as part of the one new man, and Jews accept Gentiles . We are not seperate and accepted, but joined and accepted.

Joined we no longer see our seperate selves.

eddif

 

[Butch5]

Question.
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John;

Using context how do you read the law without ignoring the Kingdom message?

I take the context of the kingdom with my mind
to read the law lawfully. I use both contexts to not get lost.

eddif

Hi eddif,

I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 nice reply thanks .. something to ponder

Hi Reba,

I didn't mean you were taking the passage out of context. I was just making the point that they are part of a larger thought.

 

[gr8grace3]

IMO there is no such thing as total depravity, God gave man a choice and he made the wrong one.

I believe in total depravity in the biblical sense. After the fall do you think that Adam would have come back to God if God didn't come to him first? I believe that man, in and of himself is totally depraved and would have never came back to God if God just folded his arms and waited for man to come back. I think what gets overlooked is that ALL men are depraved and God came back for ALL men. In and of ourselves we would never look for the cross or want the cross. God came to man on the cross and gave us an option....to reject or accept Him And reveal to ALL men that Christ is their option to return to Him. But if God did not "come back" for man, man would never "go" to God. God did something about our total depravity. He came to ALL men on the Cross.
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
God did something about our total depravity and revealed a choice to us ALL.....Christ. But if God did not first come to us, we would never go to him.
For the most part I do agree with you. But God had to give man a choice and an option. If God left us to ourselves and did not reveal choices or options to us, we would never seek Him out.
Calvinism says that God does not reveal the cross to some or has not gave them the option of the Cross....Hogwash!
2 Pet 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God in His own time decided to make man for fellowship, a creature able and willing to by choice come to Fellowship with GOD.

God is/was perfectly content in His fellowship and does not need man for fellowship. He created us to reveal His Grace and Mercy and to glorify Him. If there was no fall, would His grace and mercy ever be revealed? Fellowship is a blessing and relationship for man, not for God.

The Book of Job reveals to us why we were created. To resolve the kingdom conflict and the accusations satan makes about God. We are here to reveal His Grace and mercy and Glorify Him. And to be witnesses for Him that He is fair,just and full of grace and mercy for anyone.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe in total depravity in the biblical sense. After the fall do you think that Adam would have come back to God if God didn't come to him first? I believe that man, in and of himself is totally depraved and would have never came back to God if God just folded his arms and waited for man to come back. I think what gets overlooked is that ALL men are depraved and God came back for ALL men. In and of ourselves we would never look for the cross or want the cross. God came to man on the cross and gave us an option....to reject or accept Him And reveal to ALL men that Christ is their option to return to Him. But if God did not "come back" for man, man would never "go" to God. God did something about our total depravity. He came to ALL men on the Cross.
John 12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
God did something about our total depravity and revealed a choice to us ALL.....Christ. But if God did not first come to us, we would never go to him.
For the most part I do agree with you. But God had to give man a choice and an option. If God left us to ourselves and did not reveal choices or options to us, we would never seek Him out.
Calvinism says that God does not reveal the cross to some or has not gave them the option of the Cross....Hogwash!
2 Pet 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


God is/was perfectly content in His fellowship and does not need man for fellowship. He created us to reveal His Grace and Mercy and to glorify Him. If there was no fall, would His grace and mercy ever be revealed? Fellowship is a blessing and relationship for man, not for God.

The Book of Job reveals to us why we were created. To resolve the kingdom conflict and the accusations satan makes about God. We are here to reveal His Grace and mercy and Glorify Him. And to be witnesses for Him that He is fair,just and full of grace and mercy for anyone.

God revealed Himself to man before the cross. That is why all men are without excuse.
Romans 1
Total Depravity says man knowing that there is a God is so depraved that he is incapable of desiring to and incapable of seeking for the God he knows exists.

 

[gr8grace3]

God revealed Himself to man before the cross. That is why all men are without excuse.
Romans 1

I agree.

Total Depravity says man knowing that there is a God is so depraved that he is incapable of desiring to and incapable of seeking for the God he knows exists.

That is calvinisms definition of total depravity. I disagree.

The biblical definition of total depravity is that men would not seek after God if God didn't seek after man first. The reason men KNOW there is a God is because God revealed Himself to man. Calvinism says that God didn't seek after all men. And He did. Every man will be without excuse.

 

[Deborah13]

I agree.

That is calvinisms definition of total depravity. I disagree.

The biblical definition of total depravity is that men would not seek after God if God didn't seek after man first. The reason men KNOW there is a God is because God revealed Himself to man. Calvinism says that God didn't seek after all men. And He did. Every man will be without excuse.

I agree.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 

[reba]

Hi Reba,

I didn't mean you were taking the passage out of context. I was just making the point that they are part of a larger thought.

I believe i understood you correctly...

 

[eddif]

After reading over some others posts:

The eternal solution
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

A temporally fear method to wait till Christ comes
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rod and staff. Not just a rod. Not just a staff. Agape love is both. The thing is: the wrath of.God was poured out on his Son.

Before Jesus died on the cross mankind was kept just short of total destruction. This was done several times (I still think the flood - explained on post 3 - is the major example of wrath against sin).

I understand Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.

God revealed hi wrath from heaven (nature attacks for instance). (Search scripture)
The flood came
Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed
Plagues destroyed
Snakes biit

Fear is temporal. Total depravity is pushed back by compassion and fear (Jude 21-23).

The gospel is the final total answer.

eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

God revealed Himself to man before the cross. That is why all men are without excuse.
Romans 1
Total Depravity says man knowing that there is a God is so depraved that he is incapable of desiring to and incapable of seeking for the God he knows exists.

And the Bible says that God created mankind to seek Him ~ Acts 17:26,27. So the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity does not line up with Scripture.

Also, Heb 11:6 indicates that man can seek God.

 

[chessman]

​

The biblical definition of total depravity is that men would not seek after God if God didn't seek after man first.

Where?

I submit (as Paul did and as Calvin did) that all men are created with the ability to seek after God. Thus, when they fail to do just that, they are without excuse.(Rom 1:20-21)

Romans 1:20-21 (LEB) For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. ​

Nor is that the definition of Total depravity given by the OP (Hodge):
"By total depravity, is not meant that all men are ... destitute of all moral virtues."

Nor is it Calvin's definition of Total depravity. I picked up a copy of Calvin's Institutes and read through Book I over the last day or two. You cannot get past the first chapter without realizing that Calvin thought all people had the ability to seek God and even worship God within themselves from the womb.
He argues that when people begin to suppress what they can see all around them in nature and even within themselves (their moral virtues), they do so of their own choice/depravity. On the otherhand, if people seek God, God leads them along that process.

From Calvin: "Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him."

Acts 17:26,27. So the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity does not line up with Scripture

Calvin says about Acts 17 "Paul, accordingly, after reminding the Athenians that they “might feel after God and find him,” immediately adds, that “he is not far from every one of us,” (Acts 17:27); every man having within himself undoubted evidence of the heavenly grace by which he lives, and moves, and has his being."

 

[eddif]

Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Adam sought to cover his nakedness with fig leaves. Man's seeking God is limited. Seeking God's righteousness under the Law will not even take you into heaven for eternity.

Seeking God? Yes, but with clarification. John the Babtist said believe in the one who comes after me. John prepared the way, but Jesus defined the kingdom.

This thread helps. I have not decided to support any established doctrine (nothing new), but this is all helping get the right scriptures in the right piles (rightly dividing).

eddif

 

[gr8grace3]

​

Where?

I submit (as Paul did and as Calvin did) that all men are created with the ability to seek after God. Thus, when they fail to do just that, they are without excuse.(Rom 1:20-21)

Romans 1:20-21 (LEB) For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. ​

Nor is that the definition of Total depravity given by the OP (Hodge):
"By total depravity, is not meant that all men are ... destitute of all moral virtues."

Nor is it Calvin's definition of Total depravity. I picked up a copy of Calvin's Institutes and read through Book I over the last day or two. You cannot get past the first chapter without realizing that Calvin thought all people had the ability to seek God and even worship God within themselves from the womb.
He argues that when people begin to suppress what they can see all around them in nature and even within themselves (their moral virtues), they do so of their own choice/depravity. On the otherhand, if people seek God, God leads them along that process.

From Calvin: "Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him."



Calvin says about Acts 17 "Paul, accordingly, after reminding the Athenians that they “might feel after God and find him,” immediately adds, that “he is not far from every one of us,” (Acts 17:27); every man having within himself undoubted evidence of the heavenly grace by which he lives, and moves, and has his being."

Exactly where does it say that man was "created with the ability to seek God?"

I am strictly speaking of man in and of himself. After the fall, What if.....God didn't reveal himself through His creation. Didn't give us His prophets,didn't give us His Spirit,didn't give us His word,miracles,signs,wonders And just waited for us to seek him out. Would man seek Him out?

 

[gr8grace3]

​

Where?

I submit (as Paul did and as Calvin did) that all men are created with the ability to seek after God. Thus, when they fail to do just that, they are without excuse.(Rom 1:20-21)

Romans 1:20-21 (LEB) For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. ​

Nor is that the definition of Total depravity given by the OP (Hodge):
"By total depravity, is not meant that all men are ... destitute of all moral virtues."

Nor is it Calvin's definition of Total depravity. I picked up a copy of Calvin's Institutes and read through Book I over the last day or two. You cannot get past the first chapter without realizing that Calvin thought all people had the ability to seek God and even worship God within themselves from the womb.
He argues that when people begin to suppress what they can see all around them in nature and even within themselves (their moral virtues), they do so of their own choice/depravity. On the otherhand, if people seek God, God leads them along that process.

From Calvin: "Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him."



Calvin says about Acts 17 "Paul, accordingly, after reminding the Athenians that they “might feel after God and find him,” immediately adds, that “he is not far from every one of us,” (Acts 17:27); every man having within himself undoubted evidence of the heavenly grace by which he lives, and moves, and has his being."

You Know, never mind Chessman. I pretty much agree with you and I am diving into semantics and technicalities and is probably unprofitable in this discussion. Sorry Brother.

 

[FreeGrace]

Exactly where does it say that man was "created with the ability to seek God?"

I think Acts 17:26,27 addresses this:
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

I am strictly speaking of man in and of himself. After the fall, What if.....God didn't reveal himself through His creation. Didn't give us His prophets,didn't give us His Spirit,didn't give us His word,miracles,signs,wonders And just waited for us to seek him out. Would man seek Him out?

Fortunately, none of these "what if's…" occurred. Instead, Gd did reveal Himself through creation, He did give us prophets, His Spirit, His Word, and all the rest.

 

[eddif]

Ah yes. The day of heart transplants has arrived. Heart transplants take away the stony heart (?), and give you a new lease on life. It does not make you super man.

For Paul to recognize he was still a msn is significant . Romans 7::5 . There are some doctrines that say our body is above sin (does not agree with scripture).

Our new spirit of our mind does include great promises. With this new mind we serve Christ.

Got to love Romans 7:25
Rosetta Stone of two natures.

eddif

 

[gr8grace3]

I think Acts 17:26,27 addresses this:
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;


Fortunately, none of these "what if's…" occurred. Instead, Gd did reveal Himself through creation, He did give us prophets, His Spirit, His Word, and all the rest.

Yep, I am with you.....was going "out of bounds" with my thoughts and speculations.

 

[Deborah13]

​

Where?

I submit (as Paul did and as Calvin did) that all men are created with the ability to seek after God. Thus, when they fail to do just that, they are without excuse.(Rom 1:20-21)

Romans 1:20-21 (LEB) For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. ​

Nor is that the definition of Total depravity given by the OP (Hodge):
"By total depravity, is not meant that all men are ... destitute of all moral virtues."

Nor is it Calvin's definition of Total depravity. I picked up a copy of Calvin's Institutes and read through Book I over the last day or two. You cannot get past the first chapter without realizing that Calvin thought all people had the ability to seek God and even worship God within themselves from the womb.
He argues that when people begin to suppress what they can see all around them in nature and even within themselves (their moral virtues), they do so of their own choice/depravity. On the otherhand, if people seek God, God leads them along that process.

From Calvin: "Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him."



Calvin says about Acts 17 "Paul, accordingly, after reminding the Athenians that they “might feel after God and find him,” immediately adds, that “he is not far from every one of us,” (Acts 17:27); every man having within himself undoubted evidence of the heavenly grace by which he lives, and moves, and has his being."

grr...I just lost a whole post.

"Every person, therefore, on coming to the knowledge of himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is also led as by the hand to find him."
So God will not urge a man to seek or lead him by the hand, until he comes to the knowledge of his own depravity.
"2. On the other hand, it is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he have previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself. For (such is our innate pride) we always seem to ourselves just, and upright, and wise, and holy, until we are convinced, by clear evidence, of our injustice, vileness, folly, and impurity.
Convinced, however, we are not, if we look to ourselves only, and not to the Lord also__"

Not sure that I can sort this out, let's see. First God creates all men with the ability to know that He not only exists but His Deity. God withholds His urging and leading to seek Him until man recognizes his own depravity. But man cannot have this knowledge about himself until he seeks God's face, the same God who is withholding His urging and leading to seek Him, until he acknowledges his own depravity. ???