I understand what you mean. No one could expect a baby to not soil their diapers until they are able to sit on the potty. Allow me explain a few points. A choice of necessity is one that is made because they have to. They are not free to not choose. It is not voluntary, the choice is inevitable. That is what esteeming God as God pertains to, since His ways are judgment. For example Jesus says, "if you're not for me you are against me". This is a sword that is judgment, to show what is in you. As if God sent the Truth into the world and every man judged himself according to what they each said they saw. This is no different than sifting wheat. The grain will go one way and the chaff will go another. The humble choose differently than the proud. Hence God prepares two doors, one for the proud and one for the humble for he knows their hearts and how they will choose. Through the door for the humble, they will be exalted, and through the door for the proud they will be humbled.This makes no sense. In order to choose anything at all demands the freedom to do so.
I would point out that all of life is choices. If we choose to be here we have not chosen to be there. We have to be somewhere and are constantly choosing moment by moment. If I choose not to choose I still have chosen. There is nothing that cannot be construed as a choice. Our discussion here is about depravity and what that means in how our lives, or rather moral choices, will be directed or affected by depravity, and by it's counterpart the fullness of the Spirit. Notice these verse about the need for renewal.
Titus 3:5King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
As pertains to moral choices, yes. In fact, to me, all you are asking me, is if God is real? God is the Light and His Word is the Light and very life of man. John 1:4. Darkness is the absence of Light, hence depravity. Also God is the God of the living. Matthew 22:32.So, apparently you think that all of man's choices really emanate from the existence of powers of Light and/or darkness??? Really?
I agree, they are clear choices, like night and day, Light and darkness. Of course it doesn't matter what God says if you don't believe Him. Righteousness is by faith.The consent that God offers as a choice is "to consent and obey". As opposed to "refuse and rebel". Again, clear and opposite choices, with the consequences of both given clearly.
Just as clear choices were given in Deut 11 and 30.
I am talking about Truth, and lies posing as the truth upon which we reason and then choose accordingly. John 8:32. Indeed the knowledge of God does set a man free. For the knowledge of God is the solid assurance of His unfathomable Love, Holy and perfect Character, as is revealed in the Christ whom through such Love sacrifices himself for our sins. 2 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Peter 1:2-3.I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. God has given man the freedom to make choices. It isn't the "knowledge of God" that "sets the will free", and I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean.
The knowledge of God is the knowing of His Character. At the core of every person is an image of god, even though we do not all realize this. That is what rules our moral reasoning. Every time we make a moral decision, we declare what we think this image of god would say is the right or wrong thing to do. In the Garden of Eden all began in trust of God, the thought of distrust did not enter in and we were innocent of any such concept regarding our Creator. Satan introduced the notion that we would prosper for ourselves if only we had the knowledge of good and evil which God had forbidden as it was poison to our mortal souls. Satan said God was trying to keep us from becoming like Him knowing good and evil whereby comes judgment, the ability to find fault and have pride and shame in comparison to others. This image of God is an image of a tyrant boss that stays in power by denying others those things that would make them his equal. This false image inspires distrust and rationalizes disobedience and a desire to have self determination. Through belief in Satan we ate and unknowingly accepted this false image for it was presented subtly. The false image creates the impure of heart through wicked imaginings. We count ourselves as self determined unaware of the false image. As people offend others through the pride which such knowledge gave us, it led to murder and distrust of others intentions. And since we counted ourselves self determined it justified returning evil for evil and death reigned even as God had foretold. All of this began with a false image of God including the notion that disobeying God was a viable option. This false image is what the Christ destroys through the cost of His flesh and blood. Hence he says Come to me all who thirst for righteousness, and my blood is drink and my flesh is food. This True Image of God sent by God is what sets a person free from the false image so that men do trust God again and obey His voice in their heart. For His voice is the voice of Love. And we return good for evil lest we be seen by God as hypocrites, casting judgment upon those who would do evil as if we were never like them. Romans 2:1. Moreover we treat each one still held captive by darkness with mercy and understanding as is befitting in God's eyes, forgiving trespasses and praying for those who unwittingly be deceived into thinking that the Gospel is a poison and should be defeated. Satan has invented false gospels and false teachers to muddy the waters, for he knows the Gospel has the power to end his reign through the false god he implanted.
This doesn't matter since it is what knowledge we have to reason with that will determine the outcome.God has given mankind an intellect, with which to reason and choose.
That's not my view. My view is that with a corrupt image of god in our minds, our heart is also corrupted, and so are all our choices and desires. Romans 1:23. Deuteronomy 4:16.Can you find Scripture that indicates that man's choices are not his own? That would support your view.
2 Corinthians 10:5Great verse. Which has nothing to do with man's freedom to choose.
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Exactly where do vain imaginations happen? Also where do thoughts happen? The same place where we make our decisions. Do imaginations affect our choices? Eve imagined being like God and being wise and she ate of what was forbidden. We are enticed through imaginations in the lust of the flesh that are empty and dead works.
Just because there exists God and false gods to choose from doesn't mean you have a free will. The fact is there is only One God. He bought us from death with His own son's blood. It is wrong for us to think our lives are ours, and we are free to disobey him. That is a thought that needs to be brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. Why? Because we are the body and he is the head.
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Total Depravity
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
- Start date
chessman
Member
It's Total Depravity, not Toliet Depravity
That was cute and made me laugh out loud.It's Total Depravity, not Toliet Depravity
So it is inevitable that all will esteem God? Or does God expect that some won't soil their diapers?
Then your reasoning ends in a contradiction. I can easily point this out. You have acknowledged that wisdom and knowledge are necessary to make wise knowledgeable decisions.
So then to you, is the will free to choose another god when the knowledge of God already rules in you? Careful here. For to answer yes is saying you can right now choose to call Christ falsehood with complete conviction because you have a free will.
Everything is Spirit including Life it's self. The carnal mind just doesn't see it that way because of ignorance. John 6: 63. John 1:1-4. To the carnal mind the life is the flesh.
Deuteronomy 11 and 30 doesn't mention "free will". With respect, I believe you are conflating free will with the ability to choose, the ability to reason. Hence you show God giving a clear choice and awaiting consent/refusal and call it evidence of free will. That is the definition of "will", not free will. I showed this earlier. —used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal
Respectfully, that is not what I mean by the implications of the existence of a free will. Again I believe we are talking past one another since I think you are saying free will when what you mean is will.. The definition of free will according to Merriam Webster:
free willnoun
: the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.
Funny. What's not funny is Christ spent his blood for our choice.
So this is what is behind your determination? I can understand that. You feel the Calvinist theology ends up making God the author of sin and that the blame for all evil would lie with Him.
Yes I can. But first let us expose the semantics. Free is a relative term which derives it's proper connotation from that which it is relative to. Light is free from darkness while darkness is free from Light. Even as Lies/darkness are free from Truth/Light while Truth/Light is free from lies/darkness. But the lies exist only to circumvent what came before it, while Truth was not invented to circumvent lies. Hence lies are the usurper and it is only the Truth/Light is the Eternal. Hence the spirit of Truth is where the true freedom is and the only real power, while the lies are a false sense of freedom that usurps power by countering the truth. Romans 6:20, Romans 6:22. John 8:32.
I wish you had said cannot be called a free choice, just to hear you admit that there exists such a thing as a non free choice.
Not exactly true. The atheist defines the term "god" as a mythical imagining of mankind meant to politically manipulate others through the fear of hell. Hence they would not count God as real so as to escape coercion.
Do you think Deut 11:26-28 is coercive? If so, how so?[/QUOTE]
It's coercive because to disobey carries the threat of death and the lake of fire. You yourself said this:"God has made a promise to give eternal life to those who have believed in His Son, so that one will be saved from the lake of fire". To choose to believe in Jesus for this reason is to do so out of fear of Eternal torment. That's coercion. But that is not why I believe, since perfect Love casts out all fear. By the way belief/Faith/Trust, is not a product of choice.
Faith is a prerequisite to become enabled to obey God without coercion.
If I tell my child not to burn the house down, it is not an option.
With a theology of free will ruling in your reasoning how could you not? The obvious contradiction is that you are not free to choose to agree strongly that rebellion is of Satan's seed. 1 John 3:9
It is imagined as free. It isn't real.
Because then I would be pondering that God doesn't know what's best for me. It's the voice of Satan, it is the tempter. It's vanity, it's wrong.
Blindness is a disability not an ability. Luke 7:21, Romans 11:31-32.Romans 10:17. James 2:5
John 3:9, Romans 6:17. According to Romans 6:17, who should be thanked for obeying from the heart the doctrine delivered?
On the contrary, the wise person knows there is no option but to obey God. There is no choice if you wish to live.
I'm beginning to believe you are conflating choice/decision with choice/option. Those are two different connotations of the term "choice". Only the connotation choice/decision can be associated with the will.
My point is that God is not esteemed as God, when He is not seen as the Light, the source of wisdom, Whom without we become fools. That is depravity. That is why there is no option to deny Him unless I think being a fool is a worthy consideration, which of course means I am already a fool.
I said esteeming God as God. Is it inevitable that all will esteem God as God? In due time, yes I believe so. I imagine some will see Him and not be ashamed, and some will see Him and soil their diapers.
I think we're closer than it may seem. I suspect we are only arguing terminology. I do not believe in free will because I believe God moves us to Godly actions. That's what the fruits of the Holy Spirit are. The dictionary definition of free will means God doesn't do this. In almost all the dictionary definitions, there is no Holy Spirit or divine will that guides, compels, restrains our actions. Just answer me one question. Remembering that God is Love/Empathy, does God compel people to do Good and thereby restrain people from being bad? If you say yes, then I would conclude that you don't believe in the dictionary definition of free will either.
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I'll be on the lookout for that.
Where do you get this notion that "the knowledge o0f God already rules in you"? Certainly not from the Bible. Seems you're setting up a straw man here. Jesus acknowledged some people "believe for a while", and then in time of temptation, "fall away". iow, they cease believing. Yet, they had believed. So your straw man will not be tolerated.
I'm careful here and elsewhere.
I suggest that you be careful here. This is just another straw man, a rather common one among the Calvinists.
The truth is that people change their minds all the time. What's behind that? That's where your answer lies.
What relevance does any of this have to do with one's will?
Didn't need to. The issue is clear: God provides 2 clear and opposing choices for Israel to choose. iow, there is no indication that He forces either choice. Thus, making the choice free.
LOL. Of course it is. There is no conflating here. One chooses from within one's desires, which you have acknowledged as what the will is.
The choice is clearly free, not coerced. Your opinion is in error.
And one's will is expressed freely.
Yep.
Actually not. Our choices had nothing to do with what He did. He reconciled the WORLD to God. Do you understand what that means?
I said this:
"Yes, it is necessary to include the word 'free', since Calvinists don't believe that our choices were freely made, but that God actually "determined" our choices for us."
Are you going to deny that the Calvinist view is that our choices are caused ultimately by God? They are either freely made, or they have been caused by someone else. Which is it?
Uh, how about sticking with the subject; free choices. Let's not cloud the discussion about light and darkness, etc. I'm not interested in semantics here.
I said this:
"If any choice is coerced, then it isn't free. And anything that is coerced cannot be called a choice."
Let me clarify: whatever action is coerced is not a choice on the part of the one who was coerced. It may be a choice on the part of the one doing the coercing. I hope that clarifies.
I said this:
"The atheist doesn't believe there is a God, so of course he won't believe anything attributed to God. So his choice isn't coerced at all."
My statement stands as true, exactly. Nothing you said here changes that.
I said this:
"Do you think Deut 11:26-28 is coercive? If so, how so?"
Apparently we are using the word 'coerce' differently. I mean it in a forced way. Not as simply a threat. If one doesn't believe the threat is real, there is no coercion.
Someone who outweighs you by 100 pounds of solid muscle, with a nasty disposition, tells you to do something, or they will pound the stuffing out of you, your compliance would be coerced, because you believe the threat, and are trying to avoid the consequences of non-compliance.
But if someone who you outweighed by 100 pounds threatened you, would you do what they demanded under the same circumstances; i.e., pound the stuffing out of you? Let's not add to my example by making that person some kind of ninja or something.
Again, I use the word 'coerce' as something that is forced. You seem to use it as simply a threat. But all threats can be believed or rejected. To coerce in my use is to actually force an action.
So, you loved before you believed??? How did that occur?
Another straw man. Choice doesn't produce products. Choice doesn't cause anything.
Another straw man. God doesn't coerce (force/cause) as a general principle.
That is quite naive. If your child has access to matches or a lighter, and is so disposed, he/she may well burn the house down. How do you think many houses did burn down? Kids playing with matches. They didn't intend to burn the house down, but being stupid kids, that's what happened.
I happen to believe strongly that rebellion comes from our corrupted flesh, which began with Satan's deception. So there is no contradiction in my view at all.
Your opinion is noted.
I said this:
"Why is it "wrong to consider whether to obey God or not"??"
Not necessarily. One could ponder the risk/benefits of obeying. Why are there commands regarding behavior? And why are there consequences? As motivators.
I said this:
"Where do you get the notion of "our disability to not believe Him"."
Why do you insert blindness in a discussion of obedience? Blind people can obey commands.
David was considered spiritually mature (wise) WHEN he committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her husband to cover up his sin. There is always a choice. Your denial of such is your opinion.
Let me be clear. Having a choice means having options. And choosing either one is a decision.
That's part of our differences.
This is the biggest difference. God gave us the Holy Spirit to empower us to Godly actions. But God doesn't act against our wills. Our wills are free. That's why God rewards the faithful believer.
Not following you here. What does the "dictionary definition of free will" have to do with the fruit (singular) of the Holy Spirit? The fruit of the Spirit are character qualities.
Do you still sin? I hope you you will admit that. Why didn't the Holy Spirit restrain those actions??
Since we clearly see that people DO bad things, it is obvious that God doesn't restrain people from evil. Or there'd be no evil.
You missed it. I already pointed it out.
I was assuming "you" had the knowledge of God and were ruled by Him even as you have already admitted that knowledge and wisdom are necessary for wise and knowledgeable decisions which things come from God. Again the knowledge of God is the knowledge of His Holy Character as seen in the Christ.
As for me, it's not a notion that Jesus rules in my heart and mind and soul. There is no greater image of God that can be presented that could replace him, not even in my greatest imagination. Titus 3:5
I am not setting up a straw man. I am exposing the contradiction for you that you claim you are looking out for. Above you are diverting the issue through speaking about how others can fall away, when the question is not being put to these people who can't answer. It is being put to you. It's a simple question. Can you, with your free will, call the Jesus of the True Gospel a fraud, and believe it in your heart so that you are not lying?
I appreciate your sentiments, but it is not a straw man. It's an honest question that deserves an honest answer. Again you are diverting the issue and are evading giving a direct answer. Again, the question is being put to you. I'm not asking if later you will change your mind and deny Christ, Peter did. I'm asking if right now, today, that you can decide in your mind and knowing Christ, call him a fraud and not be lying? I just want to show that you can't. I just want to show that today right now on this forum, you can confess Jesus as your Lord and savior, and consequently you can't confess him as a fraud. I just want to prove that Jesus (the knowledge of God) rules in your heart.
I know what's behind the cause of why people change their minds that precipitates a falling away.
Because the carnal will cannot be subject to God and therefore cannot choose God. Romans 8:7. Consequently it is not a free will.
Here you have used the term free, relative to two different things at the same time. 1) two clear choices.2) No indication that God forces their choice, which actually means you can't say either way even while you declare that the proof is there. That's conflating two meanings of the word choice, since two clear choices being presented has nothing to do with whether God forces them to choose the right way. I think we've been here before. I already said this does not prove free will. It proves they had no faith to believe God. Righteousness is by faith. You already agreed on this since you said, Bingo. Yet here we are, back again reliving what has already been debunked.
This is already twenty-twenty hindsight. The scriptures you provided show God allowed this to happen this way, as a testimony that He is what makes men good on the inside. They lacked faith and could only choose accordingly. But God is able to make them Love Him with all their hearts mind and souls, so that they may put the fullness of faith in God. Deuteronomy 30:6.
This is the problem with language, and why I say we're talking past one another. I didn't say you are conflating making choices, the ability to reason, with the term "will", as you suppose above. I said you are conflating the ability to choose, the ability to reason with "free" will. So yes there is conflating going on as the record shows, which is why I am now pointing this out. Or let me put it this way, you are conflating will with free will, when you claim that free will is the ability to reason and choose. No, free will is the ability to choose how to act, the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.
Merriam Webster:
the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.
You contradict yourself. They lacked faith and acted accordingly. Remember, Bingo.
.
You are now conflating freely with any and every desire. And so the rapist of little children gloried at how free he was in his desires and actions, too blind to see that he was a wretch and the slave of a corrupt soul.
Yep what? The implications of "free" will are that there are no moral choices that are predetermined by fate or by God. That would mean that the fall of Adam never affected any decision or action of any of his ancestors. Sin does not exist in mankind and God is not Love.
Nonsense.
So Adams choice didn't cause sin to enter into mankind?? Yes I understand what it means. It means we couldn't freely choose our way back unto reconciliation without Him.
I wouldn't know what Calvin believed. Which is it? That, is a great question. A key question. I believe in a no fault scenario. That is that vanity is a circumstantial product of being created and not being the Creator. It's no one's fault. Romans 8:20.
I'm just answering your question. I need to address the semantics for the sake of clarity. You didn't understand it, did you?
Since these people chose contrary to what could be construed as coercion, that is, despite God's promise of blessing and curse they chose contrary to God, it is rather irrelevant. They lacked faith is all that can be ascertained. Bingo.
How can you say that? Their view that God is a mythical invention meant to coerce people out of fear means they are avoiding the belief of God because they see it as a form of coercion. That influences their reasoning their desire and their choice. Their choice is not free but based on a lie. I showed earlier that only Truth is eternal and lies are vanity. The only truly free will is one free from lies, which is why there is a Holy Spirit. John 8:32-34
Actually, many dictionary definitions pertaining to free will consider a threat as coercion which disqualifies a voluntary choice. But you're right, that if you don't believe the threat it hardly matters. Subjectively speaking there is no coercion if you don't believe the threat, even though coercion is there speaking objectively. Semantics, go figure.
No, what I mean is that I believed because of Love for Jesus not because of coercion (fear of hell).
How is it a straw man when you agree with it? If these people couldn't freely choose to have faith then the will is subject to a disability to choose the direction that requires faith. And since God can cure that, then the whole point of the exercise is to show that God is Who has the power to enable a man to choose the good.
continued:
The general principle is a fallacy of free will theology. God says otherwise. Jeremiah 18:15,
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the LordGod; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am theLord, saith the LordGod, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the LordGod, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Your missing my point. A commandment isn't meant to be construed as a choice.
You earlier strongly disagreed. That's a contradiction. The whole free will theology ends in a contradiction because it is a foundational lie..
It's not an opinion. It's God's Spirit that causes us to choose the good. Philippians 2:13. You see there. It isn't my opinion. God is Love. That's not my opinion. Love causes us to do good and restrains us from doing bad. That is what esteeming God as God is all about.
Every time you consider to disobey God for any reason, it is the devil. There are no risks in obeying God. The commandments and the consequences are given to show that we can't keep them of our own will apart from God. Since free will is a foundational lie, God's plan is to prove that He alone is our goodness. So He alone is glorified and vanity, pride, shame, guilt, accusation, can all end. He will put and end to the works of the devil. Therefore He gives the commandments to show we can't do them because we have sin which is separation from God, which is the opposite of reconciliation. Romans 7:18, Romans 3:20-21. Romans 4:16. 1 Corinthians 1:20-31
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
I said this:
Blindness is a spiritual metaphor for being led by lies. Hence, if you were blind spiritually, your disobedience was not intentional since you were misled. Romans 7:20, John 9:41.
David was blind and even deceived by his own lust. That is what the story is about. For God displayed his blind hypocrisy to him in the form of the tale about a man in David's kingdom who had many sheep. Yet he desired to take the one precious sheep from this other man. David's response was to grab his sword saying, where is this man, and I will kill him. God then reveals, it is you David. This story shows how blind and hypocritical and deceitful can be the hearts of men. Wisdom doesn't prevent the lust of the flesh. We certainly can't freely choose to not have it.
I never denied there is always a choice. I recall stating that everything we do is a choice happening all the time every waking moment. But that is a circumstance of being a living sentient being. I'm saying there are powers that govern our will that cause us to do things we would not want done to us. Just as David did.
Exactly. There is always a choice as you have said. I am sure the accuser that was thrown out of heaven used that fact to blame people constantly. He could have done such and such, and even if he did such and such, he could have done it better. Or as Jesus describes this generation of wickedness. John came neither eating nor drinking and you call him insane, the son of man came both eating and drinking and you call him a wino and a glutton.
God does empower us to act against the will of the flesh in which we do abide. Again, the will is not free just because the lust of the flesh exists as an alternative to God. And if God should give us over to the lusts of our flesh we become abominations. Romans 1:24-32.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The dictionary meaning of free will implies that our choices are not affected by God or divine intervention or fate. Since the Holy Spirit changes our entire desires and our choices reflect that, then free will is false.
Great questions. Sure, I still sin. Not as much as I used to and not after the same manner. I didn't know then what I know now. I didn't know he was Love, nor did I know how the devil deceives through the enticing of the flesh. My sin nowadays, is I'm full and warm while others go hungry and homeless.
Who's to say God didn't restrain my actions? It is our tendency as created beings to take Him for granted. Hence pride goes before a fall. I know not what all He has spared me. He restrained me enough and in just the right way to teach me how much I need Him. Once I got it deep down that I do not have a free will, and anything good I did was because of God, and anything bad I did was because I am flesh, then self righteousness, guilt, pride and shame came to an end. I then started forgiving everyone and anyone for everything and anything, for I knew they could not help themselves and my forgiveness was whole hearted as if I were forgiving myself. And then that really put a stop to any backsliding. I guess you could say I died and only Christ lives here now.
You couldn't just say yes? I'm telling you, free will is a foundational lie deep in the psyche cooked up by Satan. The only greater and deepest hidden lie in the core of our being, is that God is a liar, which adulterates our ability to have faith and makes disobedience a viable choice in our reasoning.
We witness God restraining evil all the time. You can see it driving down the road, everyone taking care not to cause damage to someone else. Every act of kindness and empathy is a restraint of where evil would have been. It's because we count ourselves the givers of good and evil which takes God for granted after this manner, that He gives us over to the lust of the flesh. We can always find fault, even as we found fault in paradise. So don't say that. Say thank you to God for the evil that doesn't happen not just for the good that does.
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No ruler can force or cause the thoughts of their subjects. Nor does God. Except on occasion, as Scripture notes.
Since I know that Jesus is not a fraud, it's just a phony straw man to ask someone who is convinced to try to believe something else. That's NOT what free will is about.
Free will is about accepting or rejecting someone, or something, or some idea. And people do change their minds.
How does the Calvinist explain a change of mind about things?
I said this:
"The truth is that people change their minds all the time. What's behind that? That's where your answer lies."
No, am pointing out that you cannot explain how or why people change their minds. So you have diverted the issue.
This has nothing at all to do with free will. Those who have believed, but only for a while (Luke 8:13) but later "fall away" have made a free choice.
This is just another straw man and has NOTHING to do with free will. Free will is NOT about having conflicting views or beliefs, as it seems you think free will involves. It doesn't.
It is about freely confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior or not. But certainly not at the same time.
So, please explain.
OK, let's look at this verse: "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,"
It does NOT say the carnal MIND (not will) cannot "choose God". You've just made that up. It says the carnal mind is hostile toward God, and does not subject itself (does not choose) to the law of God.
You've completely missed the actual point of Rom 8:7.
Where do you get that God "is able to make" people love Him in this (or any other verse)?
Where have I contradicted myself?
Regardless of how he sees his actions, they are FREE actions nonetheless. I've conflated nothing.
What do you mean by "predetermined"? Do you mean caused, or that God already knew how men would choose? There's a very big difference. Please clarify.
No it wouldn't. It is nonsense to make your claim.
The answer is no. I never suggested otherwise.
I said this:
"Are you going to deny that the Calvinist view is that our choices are caused ultimately by God? They are either freely made, or they have been caused by someone else. Which is it?"
I wouldn't know what Calvin believed.[/QUOTE]
I never asked what Calvin believed. I asked what the Calvinist view is. That means those who are reformed, such as yourself. Are you dodging my question?
I said this:
"Let me clarify: whatever action is coerced is not a choice on the part of the one who was coerced. It may be a choice on the part of the one doing the coercing. I hope that clarifies."
I see no relevant comment in regard to my comment. The very fact that "these people chose contrary" proves that there was no coercion. The point, which it seems you have missed, is that God's promises and warnings can be believed freely or rejected freely. Are you aware of that?
I said this:
""The atheist doesn't believe there is a God, so of course he won't believe anything attributed to God. So his choice isn't coerced at all."
My statement stands as true, exactly. Nothing you said here changes that."
Because it's true.
Uh, why would you think that a mythical invention is able to coerce anyone of anything?? That seems bizarre to me.
Atheists generally view the idea of God as something of a crutch for people to lean on. Not as one who coerces anyone to do anything.
Regardless of being based on a lie doesn't negate the freeness of their choice. Why do you think it does negate the freeness of their choice?
You're preaching to the choir. What's your point?
What you're still missing is that if one doesn't see the threat as real, there is NO coercion.
This isn't semantics.
It goes either way.
No one "chooses to have faith". That's a nonsensical sentence. People choose to either believe what is claimed or to reject it.
I said this:
"Another straw man. God doesn't coerce (force/cause) as a general principle."
"‘For My people have forgotten Me, They burn incense to worthless gods And they have stumbled from their ways,
From the ancient paths, To walk in bypaths, Not on a highway,"
If you're going to quote a verse, it should at least be related to your point. There is nothing here about God coercing anyone.
And your so-called "conclusion" that free will "is a foundational lie" is just another opinion. Void of substance. iow, you've not proven your claims.
"for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
There is nothing in this verse (or any other) that says that God causes actions. It does say that He is at work in us, and for us to work for His pleasure.
"Another straw man. God doesn't coerce (force/cause) as a general principle."
I note your opinion. And Jer 18:15 doesn't support your opinion.
"‘For My people have forgotten Me, They burn incense to worthless gods And they have stumbled from their ways,
From the ancient paths, To walk in bypaths, Not on a highway,"
If you're going to quote a verse, it should at least be related to your point. There is nothing here about God coercing anyone.
Where do you find any reference to God making choices for His people. This passage is about God restoring His people, who have repented. Always check context.
You miss my point. All commands can be disobeyed. Which is a choice. I said nothing about what is to be construed.
I've not contradicted. Here you just throw out the charge. Please demonstrate it. I'm not going to try to wade back through all these very long posts. You made the charge; you prove it.
And your so-called "conclusion" that free will "is a foundational lie" is just another opinion. Void of substance. iow, you've not proven your claims.
Again, let's look at the verse:
"for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
There is nothing in this verse (or any other) that says that God causes actions. It does say that He is at work in us, and for us to work for His pleasure.
Actually, that is only one source for rebellion. Our sinful nature is another source. And there are external temptations.
Why don't you ask Jesus' disciples about that. And meditate on Matt 24:9 - “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."
I'm getting kinda tired of this opinion.
What does any of this have to do with free choice?
So what? People are free to believe lies. You're not proving anything.
Actually, that is false. Man is held accountable for his choices. Isa 1:18-20, Rom 1:18-20.
And he was held accountable for his lousy choices.
Yet, we are commanded to freely "put to death the deeds of the flesh", per Rom 8:13.
OK, then we can end this marathon of postings.
We choose what we want at the moment.
Of course. And our choices are freely made.
I have no idea how any of this relates to this discussion.
I'm not interested in the dictionary definition. For me, free will is simply free choice. Our choices are freely made.
How do you explain the FACT that believers still sin. That's an expression of our desires.
And knowledge does influence the choices we make.
Who's to say He does? David committed several very grievous sins. How could God have restrained him??
If it were, how come you haven't proven that yet?
Oh, you mean ISIS, Al Queda, etc?? lol
You credit that with God?? But you just said that "everyone taking care not to cause damage". Were they just robots programmed by God to avoid hitting other cars??
People can and do choose to be kind or not.
Obadiah
Member
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On the contrary, I have a conscience that convicts of sin and it happens in my thoughts. Every time I see a person begging, the empathy to feel for them and help them rises up, and this happens in my thoughts. Every prayer I express is not without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. God is never not in my thoughts since I serve Him and acknowledge Him in all of my ways. In fact I feel like my will died and only Christ lives here..2 Corinthians 10:5.
So you can't freely choose to not believe/have faith in Christ. Neither can I. I again believe you are conflating free will with will. Or else you're making up your own definitions. I will give you the definition again. The dictionary states that free will is "the ability to choose how to act. The ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God'. That's the difference between will and free will. Will is the ability to choose and also it is the desire. Free will is the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God. God is love , God is the Holy Spirit. No one freely confesses Jesus as Lord and savior from the heart via the supposed free will. They need the Holy spirit to do this.1 Corinthians 12:2-4.
Merriam Webster:
the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.
Bottom line is they lose faith. That is what the falling away pertains to. they fall away from the faith. Why do they lose faith? That probably varies per each individual case upon which I could not elaborate without examining each one.
It does say the carnal mind in the King James. In this translation it says the mind set on the flesh. That is the same thing said differently. It's not my fault that there are different translations. It doesn't mean I'm making things up. The will is in the mind. It might just as well have said, the will set on the flesh. It means the same thing since scripture identifies a will of the flesh also and all that are the lusts of it in great detail. The key point is it cannot subject it's self to God since it opposes God by it's very nature. Morally speaking, here is what many would call free will. Two wills inside of a man in conflict with one another and man figures he's somewhere in between choosing between the two. That's why there exists a choice, so that if the flesh were to die in Christ, there would be no more choice to make and what people call a free will, would cease to exist. The will of God is the True will of man, and the only will deemed as free and living according to scripture. The other will, without God, is therefore depravity and death since without God, a man is deprived of every good thing.
As I said in another post, I believe not because of coercion but because I love Him. His death on the cross has bought my soul through great suffering and saved me from a body of death. He became sin so I could be the righteousness of God. Wow, that really chokes me up. 1 John 4:19.
I don't see a free will there. I see a vile passion. Why do you suppose self control is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit?
I didn't write the definition. What I think it pertains to is determinism. Determinism is the belief that peoples choices are not free but are subsequent responses to events that preceded and therefore caused the choice. For instance, Cain would not have killed Abel if Adam had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
I don't get this response. Why is it nonsense?
No I'm not dodging your question. I believe the Calvinist view comes from Calvin which I know nothing about. I am not a Calvinist. I was brought up Catholic. As I said I believe in the no fault scenario.
I can say I see your point of view, I don't disagree with it. Still they could choose not to give in to the coercion if so enabled.
One can't choose to have faith which is what belief is. So they couldn't choose to believe freely. Ephesians 2:8. James 2:5.
From their view it is logical. Many view Islam this way.
As Jesus said on the cross, forgive them becasue they know not what they do.
Why not?
I just said that. Makes perfect sense to me. Without faith one can't choose to believe. Belief, faith, trust are the same thing.
Inevitably they will choose one or the other. But to choose freely means that they had to be enabled in their hearts to choose either way. That is why I said they can't choose to believe God without faith.
I said this:
"No ruler can force or cause the thoughts of their subjects. Nor does God. Except on occasion, as Scripture notes."
John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
I said this:
"Regardless of how he sees his actions, they are FREE actions nonetheless. I've conflated nothing."
btw, the fruit of the Spirit is singular, not plural. It's one fruit. Why do you suppose any of the characteristics are the fruit of the Spirit?
I said this:
"What do you mean by "predetermined"? Do you mean caused, or that God already knew how men would choose? There's a very big difference. Please clarify."
"No ruler can force or cause the thoughts of their subjects. Nor does God. Except on occasion, as Scripture notes."
Unless you have achieved 'sinless perfection', how valuable is that conviction of sin?
Do you provide material substance in every circumstance?
Does this include those times when you sin?
Sounds like a perfect fellow.
You've not proven your theory. People freely choose all the time to believe in Christ as Savior or not. And again, the issue isn't about "choosing to have faith". This is a red herring. People choose to believe or not. To "have faith" refers to a noun. Believing is a verb. They are different. Please don't confuse the two.
You haven't proven your theory. That our wills aren't free. Again, my use of "free will" only refers to having free choices. Our choices are free. God has offered choices, and man is free to choose between those choices.
I've already given you my definition. Our choices are free. You have not demonstrated otherwise. I'm not interested in what any dictionary says about 'free will'. The issue is about choice. God gives choices. Man selects from those choices.
Non sequitor.
The point is that they did fall away. They weren't forced to. It was a choice. They lost faith. The reason isn't important nor relevant. The point is that falling away was a choice. Freely made. Without force. God didn't force them to, obviously, but neither can Satan force anyone to lose faith. If he could, he'd be doing that to every believer on earth.
Paul's point in Rom 7 is about the 2 natures within man. The sin nature and the new nature. They war against each other. Rom 7:23
But our flesh doesn't "die" in any permanent sense. As long as believers are in the body, the issue of sin is always present. It seems you are creating another straw man.
What??! The Bible tells us what the will of God is:
John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Please cite a verse to support this statement.
What does this have to do with choice? The whole issue is what man chooses; either to accept God's will, or to accept one's own will (desire).
This is frankly impossible. It is only until one believes that one is even capable of loving God. I think you have it totally backward. Do you have a verse that supports the idea that anyone believes because they love God? I'm talking about initial faith, not the on-going day by day faith.
But you had to believe that before you responded in love. If you didn't believe what He did for you, there would be no love, right?
I said this:
"Regardless of how he sees his actions, they are FREE actions nonetheless. I've conflated nothing."
I can't help what you don't see. And you are free to call anything whatever you desire. That doesn't mean it isn't there.
btw, the fruit of the Spirit is singular, not plural. It's one fruit. Why do you suppose any of the characteristics are the fruit of the Spirit?
I said this:
"What do you mean by "predetermined"? Do you mean caused, or that God already knew how men would choose? There's a very big difference. Please clarify."
I wish you had clarified and answered my question.
Sounds like we're just a bunch of pre-programmed robots. I'm not buying it.
Your repeated claim that free will doesn't exist is why it is. Especially since you haven't supported that claim from Scripture.
Are you still Catholic?
Again, the issue about "choosing to have faith". I wish you would eliminate that phrase from this discussion. The issue is about believing in Christ. The difference between nouns and verbs.
Neither verse supports your claim here. If they do, please provide clear explanation of how they do.
No, please research the words believe and faith. One is a verb, the other a noun. They aren't the same. When one believes, that is an action. And we choose to believe what we believe. No one else is forcing us. In fact, it is utterly impossible to force someone else to believe anything.
Freely, no less.
What verse indicates this clearly?
This is confused. To believe God is an action. To have faith is a noun. Faith is what is believed. To believe God means one has faith in God. One doesn't cause the other, as you seem to advocate.