Total Depravity

[Butch5]

It is a simple answer, He did not want sacrifices; God wanted Fellowship, freely offered by a choice to know Him. God said "Disobey Me and DIE" the debt had to be paid. God in mercy made a plan to pay that debt. Sacrifices looking forward to Christ, Grace looking back to the cross But God paid the debt HE REQUIRED!

Yes it is a long discussion but some topics need long answers that try to fully explain the idea.

Total depravity as a doctrine seems to start with Augustine, he mixed Philosophy, Gnostic teachings and Latin Bible (he did not know Greek or Hebrew and based doctrine in Latin bible and "Experience") Calvin and Luther were following his teaching. The bible does not teach Total Depravity this comes from a misunderstanding of scripture and Gnostic beliefs of Augustine.

In addition there was a movement in the 16th century to revive Stoicism. Calvin had studied this as had Augustine. Christians have been adding things to the Scriptures since very early one, and several have tried to incorporate aspects of Stoicism into the Scriptures, Calvin was one of them.

 

[Butch5]

Even our best stinks..

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

tob

Actually, in that passage it is Isaiah speaking not God. He is speaking on behalf of Israel because they had sinned against God. This is typical of the prayers of the prophets, David did the same thing. The passage isn't saying all humanity is garbage. Actually, Calvinists quote this passage often. The interesting thing is that Neither Jesus nor the apostles quoted it anywhere in Scripture. Not even Paul which we would expect when writing about works. Paul writes about how no one is justified by the works of the. If anything one did was worthless this would be a perfect passage for Paul to quote, yet he never does.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Placing trust in someone or something does not take any so-called "power". When you drive across a bridge over a very deep valley, how much power did it require in order for you to trust that bridge? I suggest it required no power at all. When you talk to people, you are free to believe what they say, or not believe what they say. How much power is involved in whether to believe them or not? I suggest it requires no power.

There is a huge difference in trusting a bridge, and trusting in Christ. That a person can come to Christ without being drawn or empowered.

This has historically been rejected as semi-pelagianism.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44 (ESV)

If it requires that the Father draw a person for them to come to Christ, then how does it then reflect on your notion that a person can just do it on their own?

Sure. Jesus noted some believers who will quit believing when temptations come.

"“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Some posters make the mistake of thinking that Jesus was speaking of falling away from salvation. No, He was clearly pointing out that some only "believe for a while". The words "fall away" refer to "believe for a while."

There are several verses that plainly indicate that believers were encouraged to "continue/remain in the faith" or "remain true to the Lord". Acts 11:23, Acts 14:22, Phil 1:25 and Col 1:23 (NASB).

Oh yes, the unbeliever who is saved. There is no such thing.

Scripture is clear that one must endure to the end.

"and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22 (ESV)

There is no reason to think this salvation is from anything else, except the primary doctrine regarding salvation. As the context is persecution, and he doesn't mean that they will be saved from persecution, as the apostles were killed in being persecuted.

To think that the one who believes for a little while and then "falls away," which is a common expression for leaving the faith, is still saved is simply groundless.

The texts you cite state a desire to continue in their faith, when there are other texts that make this an imperative and necessity to be saved.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Actually, in that passage it is Isaiah speaking not God. He is speaking on behalf of Israel because they had sinned against God. This is typical of the prayers of the prophets, David did the same thing. The passage isn't saying all humanity is garbage. Actually, Calvinists quote this passage often. The interesting thing is that Neither Jesus nor the apostles quoted it anywhere in Scripture. Not even Paul which we would expect when writing about works. Paul writes about how no one is justified by the works of the. If anything one did was worthless this would be a perfect passage for Paul to quote, yet he never does.

Correct, Isaiah 66:5-6 even makes the distinction of God meeting the one who joyfully works righteousness, but due to Israel's hypocrisy and Idolatry their righteous deeds are as filthy rags. He isn't saying that works are filthy rags in and of themselves, the Holy Spirit wrought works that give glory to our Father in heaven are anything but filthy rags.

The "our" in the text is referring to Israel in particular, spoken from Isaiah who is praying and in anguish over his people's disobedience and idolatry.

Context, context, context.

 

[turnorburn]

Actually, in that passage it is Isaiah speaking not God. He is speaking on behalf of Israel because they had sinned against God. This is typical of the prayers of the prophets, David did the same thing. The passage isn't saying all humanity is garbage. Actually, Calvinists quote this passage often. The interesting thing is that Neither Jesus nor the apostles quoted it anywhere in Scripture. Not even Paul which we would expect when writing about works. Paul writes about how no one is justified by the works of the. If anything one did was worthless this would be a perfect passage for Paul to quote, yet he never does.

The word of God is the word of God Isaiah penned as the holy spirit moved him..

II Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The word of God is the word of God Isaiah penned as the holy spirit moved him..

II Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

tob

Let's look at the text.

"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isaiah 64:6 (ESV)

The author indicates that he belongs to this group, when I say, "would you like to come over to our house," it directly implies that it is mine as well as others. Same with the plural pronoun "we," which I could say, "we have salsa and chips," which implies that myself and others have chips and salsa.

Therefore, when we read that Isaiah is using these first person plural nouns, both in the subjective and possessive case, we can note that Isaiah is the one speaking and he includes himself in this group. It cannot be God who is speaking, as God's works righteousness are not filthy rags.

I recommend learning more about verbal plenary inspiration.
See here: http://www.theopedia.com/Inspiration_of_the_Bible

 

[Butch5]

Correct, Isaiah 66:5-6 even makes the distinction of God meeting the one who joyfully works righteousness, but due to Israel's hypocrisy and Idolatry their righteous deeds are as filthy rags. He isn't saying that works are filthy rags in and of themselves, the Holy Spirit wrought works that give glory to our Father in heaven are anything but filthy rags.

The "our" in the text is referring to Israel in particular, spoken from Isaiah who is praying and in anguish over his people's disobedience and idolatry.

Context, context, context.

I agree one thousand percent.

 

[Butch5]

The word of God is the word of God Isaiah penned as the holy spirit moved him..

II Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

tob

Yes, it is. It is also history and has to be understood in context.

 

[Gregg]

Let's start off with a definition from a Calvinistic Source on this matter.

"This universal depravity of men is no slight evil. The whole human race, by their apostasy from God, are totally depraved. By total depravity, is not meant that all men are equally wicked; nor that any man is as thoroughly corrupt as it is possible for a man to be; nor that men are destitute of all moral virtues."

Hodge, C. (1997). Systematic theology (Vol. 2, p. 233). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Arminians too acknowledge man's sinfulness, though to varied extents and the real difference is the degree of sinfulness that Calvinists assert regarding humanity. Also, key to their understanding is how this affects man's ability to respond to the gospel, which they will assert that it requires regeneration.

We will now discuss the merits of this view and how it compares to Scripture.

Enjoy!

If 'Total Depravity' meant that a man is incapable of saving himself and keeping himself saved, then I would agree with that simple definition. But Calvin did not stop there, as he goes on to make man puppets without conscience or free will.

 

[Deborah13]

 

[turnorburn]

Let's look at the text.

"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isaiah 64:6 (ESV)

The author indicates that he belongs to this group, when I say, "would you like to come over to our house," it directly implies that it is mine as well as others. Same with the plural pronoun "we," which I could say, "we have salsa and chips," which implies that myself and others have chips and salsa.

Therefore, when we read that Isaiah is using these first person plural nouns, both in the subjective and possessive case, we can note that Isaiah is the one speaking and he includes himself in this group. It cannot be God who is speaking, as God's works righteousness are not filthy rags.

I recommend learning more about verbal plenary inspiration.
See here: http://www.theopedia.com/Inspiration_of_the_Bible

When the holy spirit says all he means all.. this isn't pick and choose according to the latest commentary..

Isaiah 64:But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

When the holy spirit says all he means all.. this isn't pick and choose according to the latest commentary..

Isaiah 64:But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

tob

You are free to ignore everything I just said, as well as understand how Verbal Plenary Inspiration works and assert that God says his own works are filthy rags, that is in fact what you are claiming by saying that God said this in the first person.

 

[WIP]

We should probably avoid making presuppositions about what others are saying but rather ask for clarification.

It goes father toward keeping the peace.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is a huge difference in trusting a bridge, and trusting in Christ.

No kidding!! But I wasn't trying to equate them, either. The point was about how much "power" does it take to put your faith in something or someone. Maybe you missed that.

That a person can come to Christ without being drawn or empowered.

Yes, we know that people are drawn to Christ. Jn 6:44. Do you know what the next verse says? It tells us who are the one who come to Christ. v.45 explains v.44.

This has historically been rejected as semi-pelagianism.

I haven't studied either pelagianism or semi-, but does "history" determine truth? I don't think so.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44 (ESV)

If it requires that the Father draw a person for them to come to Christ, then how does it then reflect on your notion that a person can just do it on their own?

The very next verse explains who comes to Christ: those who listen and learn from the Father. Jesus said so.

Scripture is clear that one must endure to the end.

"and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22 (ESV)

I will ask you to check out the context. And how matthew meant the word "saved". He wasn't speaking eternally, as shown by the context.

To think that the one who believes for a little while and then "falls away," which is a common expression for leaving the faith, is still saved is simply groundless.

Thanks for your opinion. Now, can you back that opinion up from Scripture? When one ceases to believe, they have fallen away from their faith. How does that equate to loss of salvation, ESPECIALLY since there are ZERO verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost?

The texts you cite state a desire to continue in their faith

Absolutely not!! The text are imperatives to continue. They aren't even close to a "desire".

when there are other texts that make this an imperative and necessity to be saved.

Wrong again. There are ZERO verses that say that one must continue to believe to be saved. The aorist tense refutes your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

If 'Total Depravity' meant that a man is incapable of saving himself and keeping himself saved, then I would agree with that simple definition. But Calvin did not stop there, as he goes on to make man puppets without conscience or free will.

 

[RevSRE]

IF I may, IMO, I wish to add a comment I think is important to this discussion.
I will offer a link to the "Third of a BOOK" but understanding this is so important one liners and sound bytes just will not do it.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11Gml7mD38LuGBkewWwogg88ir2Tj3dj8XtiSdWXIDRY&authuser=0

Out of eternity and into time run two roads that man may travel. One is the narrow way that leads to eternal life. The other is the broad way that leads to destruction. Although the two are discussed in literature, stories and poems all too often we seem unable to remember that they both are real and a part of our world.
Please note there are two ways! So often we get the two run together where they must be separate.

There is the Natural man, “Flesh”, unsaved, Unbelieving, L O S T. All this mans righteousness and good deeds and aid to the sick and poor, fall short they are “compared to what is needed to be saved “ as filthy rags. (Ro3:9-20 is the natural man Lost.)

There are the ones who by a free will choice accept God’s GRACE.These are the Spiritual, In Christ, the Child of God. In God’s Grace is the righteousness of Jesus offered freely to all. (see Ro 3:21-26) Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is a view that makes the ones in Christ, the Child of The KING. I think it is a beautiful way to look at being a Christian.

The link above will take you to more.

 

[Deborah13]

Where's the LIKE button?

 

[reba]

God saw fit that this passage was note and addressed in the NT . Seems this speaks clearly to the sinful nature of man..

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Deborah13]

God saw fit that this passage was note and addressed in the NT . Seems this speaks clearly to the sinful nature of man..

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Notice the Psalmists says that "they had all become filthy." Not that God or the fall had made them that way.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

However, Paul does not say that man is unable to seek God. He said in Romans 1, that it was man's choice to turn away from God. That is why those who did/do that are without excuse.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Noah, Abraham, etc. were not these kind of men.
John the Baptist's parents were found to be righteous. So he can't be speaking about all individuals.
Deu 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

These scriptures say to me that God did not create man so depraved that he cannot seek God and that the fall of man did not leave him in this total depravity that is taught in the doctrine of TULIP.

 

[reba]

the rebuttal is to ask if mans nature has improved sense the Lord said.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I wish this topic was settled in my head 2

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply Deb...