translation idolatry vs worshiping Christ

[jasoncran]

i was going to ask you about the quran,as i think its prefered to read only in the original arabic.

 

[francisdesales]

Why Aramaic? because it was the language spoken in Jerusalem at the time. Why would poor jews in the mid east speak Greek? Jesus'(AS) message was aimed mainly towards the poor, and they would have no reason to speak or understand Greek. Would you go to a poor neiborhood in your town and spread the good word in Greek?

Now it can be argued that his utterances were origibnally transcribed in Hebrew, and that the letters Paul and other apostles wrote were written in Greek or Hebrew. I am not disputing that, Paul would have no recolection of Jesus'(as) words because he never physically met him.

What I am saying is, the original Aramaic or even Hebrew transcriptions taken down by the Apostles in real time when Jesus(AS) said them, are lost, does this bother you in any way?

The Words of Christ were recorded by His disciples. Considering what they witnessed and what they received (the Spirit to speak in tongues and understand/speak foreign languages), we can be very sure that they accurately recorded the Words of Jesus, even if He spoke in Aramaic only.

In addition, several of the apostles likely spoke Greek, they had Greek names and on one occasion, Greeks approached these Greek-speaking men. Modern research is finding out that ancient Palestine was a virtual melting pot of people and languages - not the monolithic Hebrew or Aramaic /Latin languages. The Alexandrian Canon appears to have flourished in Palestine during this era, which means many spoke Greek. Thus, even Palestinian Jews were quite familiar with writings from the Septuagint, such as the Maccabees...

There is a pretty good historical basis that Matthew was written originally in Aramaic, and if there was a 'Q', a collection of Jesus' sayings actually written that precedes the Gospels, they also probably were in Aramaic and were used by the writers of the Gospels to write them. Paul, of course, was aware of some of Christ's words, he quotes Jesus on several occasions, no doubt from the "tradition passed down", such as the Last Supper. Certainly, Paul was able to communicate with this "tradition"...

The concept of "perfect" recollection and compilation of Jesus' words are based upon the belief of the time that the apostles received the Spirit of God to remember everything He said worth writing down, and apparently, the earliest Church believed the witness of the Apostles and other disciples who knew Jesus - likely based on the miraculous deeds and the holy lifestyle of these witnesses. (people who teach about God and then act immorally are not good witnesses that "they" have been inspired by God. Thus, men like Joseph Smith and Muhammad are of questionable veracity because of how they actually lived in comparison to the dictates of a God of Love as revealed by the Old Testament and the Christ.)

Regards

 

[stranger]

Mujahid Abdullah wrote:

Thank you for that explaination, that allows me to see where you guys are coming from, but that jab at my beloved Rasoolullah(SAW) hurt.

Hi Mujahid,

The 'hurt' I don't understand. It is freedom of speech which is regarded as a basic human right in the western world. In dictatorships freedom of speech is the first human right to go - the loss of other rights follow and life becomes unbearable. It is a struggle for Christians even in the western world to maintain their right to freedom of speech eg against homosexuality.

As someone once said: I don't agree with what you are saying but I will fight (or die?) for your right to say it!

 

[stranger]

Mujahid Abdullah wrote:

Thank you for that explaination, that allows me to see where you guys are coming from, but that jab at my beloved Rasoolullah(SAW) hurt.

Hi Mujahid,

The 'hurt' I don't understand. It is freedom of speech which is regarded as a basic human right in the western world. In dictatorships freedom of speech is the first human right to go - the loss of other rights follow and life becomes unbearable. It is a struggle for Christians even in the western world to maintain their right to freedom of speech eg against homosexuality.

As someone once said: I don't agree with what you are saying but I will fight (or die?) for your right to say it!

what you expect me to hunt francesdesales down and murder her? You bash my beloved Rasooli Akram, Millions of salaams be upon him, its going to hurt my heart.

Hi Mujahid,

Some cultural differences here Mujahid - I was defending a basic human right called freedom of speech whether it is francisdesales speaking, or Mujahid. The content of what is said is not the issue!

Let me spell it out as clearly as possible.

Even if I don't agree with what you, 'Mujahid' , are saying about 'feeling hurt' and I don't understand it - I agree with your right to say it. That's freedom of speech. I wish I could say this to you in perfect arabic.

 

[stranger]

I understand you perfectly, my native tongue is English, I speak Arabic as a second language.

I belong to your culture, I am a blonde haired blue eyed white guy American convert to Islam. And regardless of her right to bash Muhamed (SAW) I still feel pain in my heart when I hear it.

Thank you for wanting to uphold our rights to free speech.

Hi Mujahid,

Ok, good. Incidentally, I was born in Europe - and now live in the land down under.

What I don't understand is the pain in your heart? What causes the pain?

 

[stranger]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":1ozee837]I understand you perfectly, my native tongue is English, I speak Arabic as a second language.

I belong to your culture, I am a blonde haired blue eyed white guy American convert to Islam. And regardless of her right to bash Muhamed (SAW) I still feel pain in my heart when I hear it.

Thank you for wanting to uphold our rights to free speech.

Hi Mujahid,

Ok, good. Incidentally, I was born in Europe - and now live in the land down under.

What I don't understand is the pain in your heart? What causes the pain?

well if I were to sit here and defame someone you loved, wouldnt you feel hurt at my actions?
Francesdesales equated my beloved Nabi Muhamed (SAW) to the depraved false prophet Joseph Smith, she also said he was not a righteous man. These things I see as insults to man who is called Rahmatil il Alimeen, Beloved of God, Nur ul Huda sallah hu alyahi wa salaam. Its quite simple, not hard to understand.[/quote:1ozee837]

Hi Mujahid,

Well, there is a difference between those who are living and those who have died. You can insult living people but those who have died are beyond the insults of the living. I wouldn't take it personally though there is a custom 'not to speak ill of the dead'.

Now, suppose you insult me or someone I love. I would forgive you - if I insulted you back that would not be following my Lord. This is how Christians love their neighbour and consequently love God.

Now to follow Christ I also have to tell the truth. God is truth and light. If I lied to you I would be deceiving you and not loving my neighbour. So my witness to you is also my witness to God as well as what we call the principalities and powers.

If you asked me was Muhammed a true prophet, I would say 'no' witnessing to you before God and the principalities and powers. I can assure you that truth can, in certain circumstances, be as painful to tell as it is to hear.

take care

 

[jasoncran]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":3f7n2e3z]I understand you perfectly, my native tongue is English, I speak Arabic as a second language.

I belong to your culture, I am a blonde haired blue eyed white guy American convert to Islam. And regardless of her right to bash Muhamed (SAW) I still feel pain in my heart when I hear it.

Thank you for wanting to uphold our rights to free speech.

Hi Mujahid,

Ok, good. Incidentally, I was born in Europe - and now live in the land down under.

What I don't understand is the pain in your heart? What causes the pain?

well if I were to sit here and defame someone you loved, wouldnt you feel hurt at my actions?
Francesdesales equated my beloved Nabi Muhamed (SAW) to the depraved false prophet Joeseph Smith, she also said he was not a rightous man. These things I see as insults to man who is called Rahmatil il Alimeen, Beloved of God, Nur ul Huda sallah hu alyahi wa salaam. Its quite simple, not hard to understand.[/quote:3f7n2e3z]then you wouldnt like the posts of the former mod and muslim gabriel ali. i think he used to call mohammed a pedaphile, francisdales is a man, not a woman! francis can be a masculine name.

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you for that explaination, that allows me to see where you guys are coming from, but that jab at my beloved Rasoolullah(SAW) hurt.

Mujahid Abdullah,

I did not intend on hurting your feelings. I am aware of history and was merely speaking historically - to me, the motivations and drives of a "prophet", what we would call the "fruits" of a prophet, are part of the veracity of the truth of his utterances.

"Did God speak to "X", or does his motivations appear to be politically driven and is using the name of God as a rallying cry to his personal cause"?

To those analyzing the truth claims of a prophet, one must have an open mind to such matters and not get caught up in emotional feelings. One must answer that question when looking at a so-called prophet, whether Jesus, Joseph Smith, Mohemmed, or anyone else, my friend. If a person was not raised in Muslim background, understand that this is a normal and ordinary question, not one to take offense at...

I realize you probably were raised with a love of "Rasoolullah", I am merely telling I am not so biased to look beyond the background of the man.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

well if I were to sit here and defame someone you loved, wouldnt you feel hurt at my actions?
Francesdesales equated my beloved Nabi Muhamed (SAW) to the depraved false prophet Joeseph Smith, she also said he was not a rightous man. These things I see as insults to man who is called Rahmatil il Alimeen, Beloved of God, Nur ul Huda sallah hu alyahi wa salaam. Its quite simple, not hard to understand.

First, I am a man, although you might not care...

Secondly, you have "hurt the heart" of every Mormon who read these posts. You do the same thing you accuse me of, although I never said Muhamed was a "depraved false prophet".

You read that into my post.

I said his background, and Joseph Smith's, could call into QUESTION the historical veracity of whether he WAS a man of God or a man USING "God" to get what he wanted. Now, in either case, God still could have indeed come to that person. Indeed. Maybe God DID give Joseph Smith some golden panels and maybe God did speak His word to Mohemmed. However, as a person who came to an adult faith only after 20 years of "nothing", I am fully aware of the questions one must ask when exploring the truth-claims of various so-called religious prophets. I've been around the block enough to know about the possibility that men lie or shift the truth a bit...

My friend, there are many religions out there. Many different ways of viewing who God is and what He wants. Having an affinity for things historical, I understand (perhaps many will say I am cynical) that men do use the name of God and use it for the sake of political exigency. How are we to prove the men indeed spoke with God? Based upon their word alone? Are we that naive?

No, we want evidence, proof. We get it from various means, among them, looking at the man's life. We know by expeirnece that people OUGHT to practice what they preach, and if they don't, they are not worthy of following, to me. We call such people "hypocrites". Thus, a person who preaches love of God and then murders their neighbors, or lives in a state of adultery and fornitication, while speaking of morality, we must question that veracity of their claim as a "man of God", as an unbiased person.

To me, to be a prophet requires an examination of the claim. Perhaps some people accept another's word as is, but that is not how I work. Thus, I would question the person's background and their "fruit" to see if such a person is worthy of being called a prophet.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

agreed.

 

[francisdesales]

All I said was that it hurt, I dont think the coment waranted an extra 10 posts. I get it you dont beleive Muhamed (SAW) is a Prophet, Ive never met a christian who did. I am not surprised. you all may now continue on with the original discussion.

As for my jab at mormons, I care about insulting their cult about as much as you care about insulting Islam.

Apparently, you didn't read my two posts. (ten?) Pointing out the historical background is not "insulting", unless one has put a particular person on a pedestal and doesn't like to have that person knocked off it. Again, I did not even begin to discuss specifics, nor did I call anyone a false prophet, certainly not deranged.

also i apolagize for calling you a her (I thought 50/50 odds were pretty good so I typed "her")

Well, my avatar looks like a man (francisdesales is not my name, of course), but don't worry about it. No need to apologize for that, how could you know my gender...

and if a Muslim insults Muhamed (SAW), he has left the fold of Islam and is no longer Muslim.

I would think the same for a Christian insulting Jesus or a Jew insulting Moses. Again, I didn't insult anyone. Could you please cite where I did???

When reading posts regarding Islam by christians I expect to feel a little pain, a little confusion, and a little anger. So thank you for worrying about my feelings, but its time to move along.

My friend, I am Catholic, and Catholics realize that Islam shares a strong affinity on a number of issues. Naturally, we disagree on some key issues. However, if you'll consult our Catechism, we have a great respect for the religion of Islam. My point had nothing to do with Islam, but the truth claim of a particular prophet depends upon how they act in life. Nothing more, nothing less.

Wouldn't you agree? If someone came up to you and told you they were a prophet, are you to believe them without question??? Would you believe them just because someone else told you so? Or would you personally explore their background, their claims, their life???

If you read into that that I personally think Mohemmed is a false prophet, then you are either reading my mind or you are quite aware of the history behind Mohemmed...

Regards

 

[stranger]

All I said was that it hurt, I dont think the coment waranted an extra 10 posts. I get it you dont beleive Muhamed (SAW) is a Prophet, Ive never met a christian who did. I am not surprised. you all may now continue on with the original discussion.

As for my jab at mormons, I care about insulting their cult about as much as you care about insulting Islam.

also i apolagize for calling you a her (I thought 50/50 odds were pretty good so I typed "her")

and if a Muslim insults Muhamed (SAW), he has left the fold of Islam and is no longer Muslim.

When reading posts regarding Islam by christians I expect to feel a little pain, a little confusion, and a little anger. So thank you for worrying about my feelings, but its time to move along.

Hi Mujahid,

Good idea to move on.

Now Christianity can be summarised by two commands: to love God and to love our neighbours.

Since Mohummed was not God why does your professed love for Mohummed exceed what I regard as love for our neighbour?

take care

 

[jasoncran]

enshuallah i thought i meant if allah wills.

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus was asked, "who is my neighbour?" He said this:

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luke 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luke 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luke 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

 

[stranger]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":1pj593m1]All I said was that it hurt, I dont think the coment waranted an extra 10 posts. I get it you dont beleive Muhamed (SAW) is a Prophet, Ive never met a christian who did. I am not surprised. you all may now continue on with the original discussion.

As for my jab at mormons, I care about insulting their cult about as much as you care about insulting Islam.

also i apolagize for calling you a her (I thought 50/50 odds were pretty good so I typed "her")

and if a Muslim insults Muhamed (SAW), he has left the fold of Islam and is no longer Muslim.

When reading posts regarding Islam by christians I expect to feel a little pain, a little confusion, and a little anger. So thank you for worrying about my feelings, but its time to move along.

Hi Mujahid,

Good idea to move on.

Now Christianity can be summarised by two commands: to love God and to love our neighbours.

Since Mohummed was not God why does your professed love for Mohummed exceed what I regard as love for our neighbour?

take care

I am not clear on what your asking? My love for Muhamed(SAW) exceeds my love for even myself, my family or this life.(inshaAllah). What exactly is love thy neigbor? My love for Muhamed(SAW) is only exceeded by my love for Allah subhana wa ta'ala.

Define love thy neigbor, and I may or may not agree with you. bare in mind you say this sums up christianity, of which i am not bound by.[/quote:1pj593m1]


Hi Mujahid,

There are different ways of looking at things. Sure my perspective is Christian yours is Islam.

In a general sense a neighbour is any living man, woman or child, but more specifically - it is those I encounter in day to day life, all the people I meet.

So you have a structure for love. God first, Mohammed second, What is next?

 

[jasoncran]

some take it that extreme, meaning that we shouldnt defend ourselves. which isnt what the bible says.

we can pray for our enemies to be saved, but that doenst mean that we simply let evil reign.
hitler needed to be stopped and killed if need be.

to love one's enemies doenst mean be a doormat. and let the innocent suffer.
i cant simply standy by while my wife is being raped and tell her its for the lord honey, no that man will have to kill me first.

 

[Mike]

Next would come my Sheikh, then family, etc.

Now I amy be hearing this wrong, but this seems like a pacifist type budhist idea.

To love every human means to love the likes of hitler, or dick cheney, or Yazid. is this too part of your docterine.

maybe this islamic philosephy will ring true to you: In Islam we are taught to hate what Allah hates and love what Allah loves. So we are to hate the kufr (disbeleif) and not the kafir (disbeleiver). in other words we hate the actions of these people, not the people.

MA, I'm sorry that I'm coming in long after a discussion has been underway. The last time I stopped in on this thread, we were talking about different versions of the Bible. This is interesting. If you don't mind, would you mind giving a few details about your road to where you are? Where you grew up, country you living in now, your spiritual life before converting, how you came to conversion??? I'm just trying to get a point of reference.

I actually worked with a team of Christians who converted from the Muslim faith. I'm Caucasian and have lived in the U.S. all my life. They would share the gospel in their neighborhoods, and the women would spend their days at markets to befriend Muslim women in order to share their Christian faith. We talked a lot about where they came from (spiritually).

In the page before, you took offense to what Francis had to say about Muhamed. Would you deny that he would later suffer from great depression, claim that he was spiritually tormented and marry a young teenage lady? I'm just sharing what was shared with me.

What about your means of salvation. I was in a discussion with a Muslim woman a few months ago who said it is blasphemous to say that she knows for certain she will have eternal life with Allah. My question she was answering was: How do you know you are going to have salvation? How much do you have to pray? What do you have to do? The answer I learned from the people I helped out with is, you never know. You can pray at all the right times of the day all your life, but you never know.

The Christian would have a simple answer to those questions. We know we haven't prayed enough or done enough. We can know for certain we will be with the Lord for eternity, not by anything we do, but by what God has done.

I'll wrap up by responding to your post I included. You say that you hate whatever, whoever Allah hates. From a Christian perspective, we believe God hates all sin. Sadly, we all have in us. None are righteous. Not one. Your statement doesn't ring true with me, because:
A.) I would have to hate everyone in the world, including myself. As much as you hate your worst enemy, believe it or not, they are not 100% good, but they aren't 100% evil. So where do you draw they line? Unless you believe people are completely one or the other, we are all somewhere in between. So where do you go from love to hate? Which leads me to my second answer.
B.) Ideally, as hard as it may be, we are called to love everyone. We can hate what they do, but we are called to separate the person from the things that they do. So, as a Christian, I would have to love the man who murders my child and pray for him.

I'm sorry if I will have you repeating things you have said, if you choose to address them, but thank you in advance if you do.

Mike

 

[Free]

I feel the christians have made a pretty good deal for themselves, accept Jesus as son and saviour of mankind and your in, no more work to be done. all thats left is dying.

What is left is living, much more so since death is dead.

 

[Free]

[quote="Mujahid Abdullah":3iqtk988]I feel the christians have made a pretty good deal for themselves, accept Jesus as son and saviour of mankind and your in, no more work to be done. all thats left is dying.

What is left is living, much more so since death is dead.

it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that you live for this world, yeah?[/quote:3iqtk988]
In a sense. The Christian life only begins with repentance and choosing to follow Christ. It is through the power of his death and resurrection that Christians are to live with the goal of bringing God's will about on earth. We become his instruments to bring about peace and justice until Jesus returns to put an absolute end to evil.

 

[stranger]

Next would come my Sheikh, then family, etc.

Now I amy be hearing this wrong, but this seems like a pacifist type budhist idea.

To love every human means to love the likes of hitler, or dick cheney, or Yazid. is this too part of your docterine.

maybe this islamic philosephy will ring true to you: In Islam we are taught to hate what Allah hates and love what Allah loves. So we are to hate the kufr (disbeleif) and not the kafir (disbeleiver). in other words we hate the actions of these people, not the people.

Hi Mujahid,

Interesting - its like they used to say: God, King and country first.

I'm not a pacificist nor follow buddist philosophy - Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Now if I was in the army in a war, I would follow orders provided that they were within the Geneva convention.

From experience 'hatred' is a luxury I can ill afford -it is a very powerful emotion - it can consume me and in this state I don't want to do anything I would later regret.

Not entirely sure about loving the sinner and hating the sin. What I dont' love is the antichrist, or the forerunners of the antichrist and the demonic realm - the principalities and the powers. That is the real evil behind all evil.

As for evil people or the evil people do - I try to bear in mind that sometime yet future God may save them and this would make them my brothers or sisters in Christ. I have to allow that possibility regardless of my feelings towards them.

take care