translation idolatry vs worshiping Christ

[Mike]

I feel the christians have made a pretty good deal for themselves, accept Jesus as son and saviour of mankind and your in, no more work to be done. all thats left is dying.

First, MA, thank you for taking the time to bring me up to speed. You're very kind and respectful which is refreshing. Since you have a Christian reference (although I wasn't able to understand the strength of your faith growing up until the point you started searching), you have a perspective to look back on as a Christian. I hope you understand how sad it is for me to hear of someone who turned his back on Jesus. I believe, still unsure of how immersed you were in the Christian faith before conversion, you know how distorted and simplified this statement of yours is.

What if I said I loved my wife, but I had no interest in showing her I loved her and my vows on our wedding day spoke for the rest of our lives together. What if she forbid me to sleep with other women or do drugs, or beat her. But what if I did that anyway, because I said my vows. Would that be love? Jesus' bride is His Church. We are obedient, not because we have to be, but because we can not NOT be. Sure we sin in God's eyes, and sure we upset our wives at times. To say that we have a free pass is to demean what it means to believe/trust in Jesus. Putting fully our trust in Him or give me a check list of things to do. Hypothetically, I'll take the checklist please.

Now to your point A) Islam does not hold true this notion of sin from birth, one can live a life in Islam without sin. it is hard and that person has obtained a lofty station in then eyes of Allah, but it is possible, and I know men who do it. So we can hate the sin, while not hating the sinner.
B) Essentially we are doing this, We hate the sin not the sinner. When i sin, I do not beleive Allah hates ME, but my action. Thus, We love what Allah loves (dutiful worship of Him and love for His holy last Messenger(SAW)) and Hate what Allah hates, i.e. the sin.

Okay, then lets focus on the action. How much do you need to do to atone for your actions that Allah hates? Do you have any idea when you are justified and have atoned? You might say "no, I don't, but whatever Allah sees fit to do with me, send me to hell or receive me into His eternal presence, is no concern of mine." I think I summed up your last kind reply. Really? You would be just as happy in torment for eternity as you would paradise? With God (Allah) as without Him forever, as long as it makes him happy? So Allah has given you no plan per se for salvation, you will delight in his decision regardless of how much he loves you and you love him.

That's one of the characters of the Christian God that we know. He loves us. He wants to have a relationship with us. We sin and, since He hates sin, a relationship is impossible. He loves us so much, He atoned for our sins by his own sacrifice, sin is washed away by His sacrifice, and we've come full circle to Him loving us and wanting a relationship with us. Even more, He wants to have us with Him for eternity even more than we know. So, we have a God who loves us and wants to be with us, and we love God and want to be with him. It matters more than I can say that I will be with him, not separated for eternity.

I would say it's getting off easy to say, regardless of what I believe, who I trust, what I do, it doesn't really matter anyway, as long as my damnation or salvation makes Allah happy.

Do you remember at all having that love for God, and feeling that love from God? Do you miss that promise that He gave you at all? I'm sad if you don't, because you've forgotten what True Love is like, and also because you might have been in a dysfunctional church that didn't nurture this love.

You are very kind, my friend.
God still loves you. In fact he loved the world so much that...

Be blessed,
Mike

 

[Mike]

MA, thank you again for your response. You have a unique perspective, having lived in my country (I live in Michigan), and known both Christianity and the Muslim faiths. Consider Matthew 13 in light of your understanding of sinning and going on sinning.

"Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
The Parable of the Weeds
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
The Parable of the Weeds
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

MA, Jesus makes it clear that hearing & accepting the Word, and showing no desire to change your life out of a response will result in Judgment. The second parable speaks to that day of Judgment.

[quote="1 John 3":rqv6en29] "7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

And finally from Romans 6:
"11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.[/quote:rqv6en29]

Clearly, we can not go on living the life as we did before we became believers.

I understand this idea that you are saved and behave moraly and in accordance with christian life out of love for jesus(AS). The thing is, you dont have to. You go off and rape thousands of women, murder, cheat and steal, but if you accept Jesus (AS) as your lord and saviour, your good, your forgiven. The problem is, there is no accountability. there is no judgement for you guys, if there is it is in vane, because you already know the outcome. Hitler, may have in his bunker, gave himself to christ, so now hes sitting in heaven and found the loop hole God missed when putting forth a moral code for humans to follow.

I hope the verses above dispel this misunderstanding. We do have accountability to the Highest authority. Look at Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

For a Muslim to atone for his sins, all he must do is ask with sincerity, repent, and he is forgiven. This is promised to us in the Quran and hadeeth. There are also many other acts that one commits everyday which is forgiveness of sins, Saying salaam to your Muslim brother, performing wudhu(washing) before prayer, making love to your wife.

Now this world is a journey. When one becomes Muslim he is not born with the acceptance of Allahs will, this is a station one strives to obtain. Once he obtains peace with Allahs comand, he is already a friend of Allah. He is at peace because he knws Allah is most merciful, and loves man-kind. He knows this so deeply that all else is irealevnt. This person does live without sin, because he is sickened by that which oppose Allahs comands, this person is so in love with his Allah, that all his actions are aimed at pleasing Allah, and Allah is pleased with him.

But still, as much as you pray, fast, follow spiritual laws, you never know if it is enough. I don't understand that, and I really don't understand why you wouldn't care if you were separated from Allah for eternity. That is most puzzling, but it speaks to the character of a god who would have followers filled with uncertainty and have them not to care if they spend eternity with him.

MA, as I said before God greatly desires that we spend eternity in His presence, and we also have that goal. Whatever the Will of God is, I will need to accept, but I know that His Will is that we spend eternity together; not separated.

Thank you again for you information and insight. I know you don't want to hear this, but the Lord wants you to hear this: Seek Him, absorb every word in His Bible. Come to know Him more, so that you will see the True God and the True means of salvation.

Be blessed,
Mike

 

[francisdesales]

My faith when I was christian was quite strong until I began to question the authenticity of it. I was very emerced, more-so than any of my friends outside of church. From my perspective I did not turn my back on jesus(AS), I turned towards him, in order to truly follow him(AS).

I understand this idea that you are saved and behave moraly and in accordance with christian life out of love for jesus(AS). The thing is, you dont have to. You go off and rape thousands of women, murder, cheat and steal, but if you accept Jesus (AS) as your lord and saviour, your good, your forgiven. The problem is, there is no accountability. there is no judgement for you guys, if there is it is in vane, because you already know the outcome. Hitler, may have in his bunker, gave himself to christ, so now hes sitting in heaven and found the loop hole God missed when putting forth a moral code for humans to follow.

For a Muslim to atone for his sins, all he must do is ask with sincerity, repent, and he is forgiven. This is promised to us in the Quran and hadeeth. There are also many other acts that one commits everyday which is forgiveness of sins, Saying salaam to your Muslim brother, performing wudhu(washing) before prayer, making love to your wife.

Interesting conversation, but I wanted to point out that your idea of what Christianity teaches is itself a serious distortion, based upon the false teachings of the Protestant Reformation. Christianity preceding the Reformation did not teach any such nonsense, but teaches something very similiar to Islam, (Islam comes from a form of Christianity mixed with local cultural beliefs and the idea that Mohemmed received particular propehetic words fom God that set it apart from Christianity.) that we indeed must repent and that our moral life effects our eternal destiny. Of course, Christianity relies on the sacrifice of Jesus to redeem mankind as a unit, it is up to the individual to then turn and accept this wonderful Gift that God has given us in Love made manifest in the Christ.

Certainly, in your studies, you realized that?

you say that is not enough, maybe because you dont understand the concept. I say, what else is there in this world besides Allah? I know he is All Merciful, All Loving, Most caring, and Most Just, so why would I not trust his command, why would I not submit to my creator out of love for Him. this idea seems universal to me, not relagated to Islam alone.

When I was a christian, I felt tons of love, I was completely in love with my creator. that love did not diminish. I sincerly asked God, and God alone to guide me to the true path. I followed my heart and submitted before my Creator. The recitation of Quran then set my heart on fire with love for my Creator. When I was christian, I thought I knew love, but after submitting to Him, I found true love. Afterwards I witnessed miracles and received more guidance by Allahs grace that solidified my iman.

The Church I was in was fine, no dysfunction, no strife. When I went to them with my concerns, They did their best to reconcile my fears. My step father then tried to send me around to various other people including James Dobson and his people at FOTF. They all gave me the same ambigous unsatidfying answers. they gave me anti Islamic literature to look through, which was filled with lies and misunderstandings. This made me see that the christians of today, well intented, are grasping at straws to explain the fundementals of their beleif.

I am still learning, and waiting for some one to make understand these fundementals.

I would like to speak further with you on this, as I am curious on your idea of Christianity before the Reformation and the idea of who Christ was and what we find in the Christain bible.

Regards

 

[Mike]

Interesting conversation, but I wanted to point out that your idea of what Christianity teaches is itself a serious distortion, based upon the false teachings of the Protestant Reformation.

FD, I really hate it when I see this. In the context of a conversation contrasting Christianity and the Muslim faith, you come in with separatist jabs within Christianity. I feel bad that I have to create this response to highlight this further, but you had to cloud the issue and make it more complex. Did you read anything I wrote in response to him?

Mujahid, I'm sure you've seen/heard disagreements from sects within your faith. Some people want to create strife that doesn't need to be there. Please don't let his comments come to represent Christianity overall. The core tenets of our faith is stronger than the smaller differences, regardless of what FD thinks. 2

 

[jasoncran]

so that's how you see us fd. :o
false brethren?

am i to assume this?

 

[stranger]

Mujahid Abdullah wrote:

I understand this idea that you are saved and behave moraly and in accordance with christian life out of love for jesus(AS). The thing is, you dont have to. You go off and rape thousands of women, murder, cheat and steal, but if you accept Jesus (AS) as your lord and saviour, your good, your forgiven. The problem is, there is no accountability. there is no judgement for you guys, if there is it is in vane, because you already know the outcome. Hitler, may have in his bunker, gave himself to christ, so now hes sitting in heaven and found the loop hole God missed when putting forth a moral code for humans to follow.

Hi Mujahid,

Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness...

Don't believe the people who are filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful Paul says they have been given over to a depraved mind. Jesus said: by their fruits you will know them.

If there was no accoutability or judgement for sin - my attitude would be 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die'.

There is one sin that is called the unforgivable sin - the death of Christ does not atone for that sin. All other sins can be forgiven.

Now God's mercy is available freely and the scriptures say 'today if you hear His voice do not harden your heart'. So a man who ignores God's mercy and refuses to repent 'becomes less likely to repent as time goes on. There is a point at which the man can no longer reach repentance. So here I am not talking anout the unforgivable sin - but rather man's hardness of heart that renders him incapable of reaching repentance.

So what about Hitler's bunker house conversion? The evidence from his life and what can be seen in scripture are against it. As you move towards the most depraved examples of humanity you also move towards the forerunners of the antiChrist . My evaluation is that men are eternally lost well before they become a forerunner of the antichrist!

take are

 

[stranger]

Mujahid Abdullah

I know there is a difference between christianity of today, and pre reformation christianity.

My view of the Christian faith is this: there is only one apostolic faith! To the degree that my faith is consistent with this faith it is true faith, and where it is not in agreement with this apsotolic faith - my faith is misguided and false. I would say that there is no such thing as non apostolic faith.

Because you are in dialogue with many different Christians - you will get a variety of responses but it is good to know whom you are corresponding with.

 

[stranger]

Mujahid Abdullah

I dont judge you guys by those standards, just as I expect not to be judged by shia standards. I understand the minor disagreements in your faith, and I am able to distinguish one from another for the most part.

....I do not beleive Islam sprang from christianity and local customs. I say it is a continuation of Judaism, and Christianity, a natural progression. But an anthropologic studie would see it borrowed from Judaism and Christianity equally.

It is the Islamic interpretation of 'Judiasm and Christianity' that is the problem for Christians. In the other post I spoke of an apostolic faith. It is the lack of conformity to an apostolic faith that is the problem Christians face internally within the Church. The resurrection of Christ is central to this apostolic understanding - this is not negotiable and we cannot and do not relinguish this belief to find common accord with other religions. So historically, if Christ was not raised from the dead, Christians are the most miserable of all men and our witness before God and men can be dismissed.

Of course what distinguishes Christians from Judaism is the acceptance of Christ as the Messiah. Judaism also rejects the resurrection of Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

Interesting conversation, but I wanted to point out that your idea of what Christianity teaches is itself a serious distortion, based upon the false teachings of the Protestant Reformation.

FD, I really hate it when I see this. In the context of a conversation contrasting Christianity and the Muslim faith, you come in with separatist jabs within Christianity. I feel bad that I have to create this response to highlight this further, but you had to cloud the issue and make it more complex. Did you read anything I wrote in response to him?

I am sorry if you disaprove of my speaking the truth, but the reality of the situation is that Mr Mujahid has a false idea of a MAJOR tenet of Christianity, the OSAS notion that all I have to do is "believe", and POOF, I am not bound whatsoever to any sort of moral ethics. He is right, and I personally am offended that people preach such garbage to other non-Christians as if THAT is the Gospel. It isn't, and it is understandable that Mr. Mujahid's own personal conscience raised a red flag when he was taught that fallacious understanding of my Christian faith that resulted in him seeking a more true relationship with God. Rather than teaching people about the God of Love who became man so that we could share in the Divine Nature, people are exposed to "cheap grace" that insults the intelligence and the Sacred Scriptures.

It is clear that our separation is the opposite of what our Savior desires, and continuing to teach a separatist gospel that offends the law written on our hearts is not spreading the Gospel. Clearly, Mr. Muhjahid has had the Law written on his heart and found a particular sect's teachings as offensive to that law, meaning that he had to go elsewhere.

Islam means "to submit to God". That entails a LIFESTYLE, not a "one time faith proclamation", while totally ignoring any sort of morality as necessary to remain in a relationship with the One True God. If a person sees the OSAS as representative of Christianity, is it not a wonder that he chose to submit to God in a more proper and fitting manner? Catholicism respects that aspect of Islam, they got this right, more so than some of our separated brothers... We are not about false ecumenism, but about love through the truth.

Mujahid, I'm sure you've seen/heard disagreements from sects within your faith. Some people want to create strife that doesn't need to be there. Please don't let his comments come to represent Christianity overall. The core tenets of our faith is stronger

The more I speak with people on this forum, the more I wonder about the list of "core tenets" of people who CALL themselves Christian.

Mr. Mujajahid's understanding of Christianity is a big reason why he left Christianity. Did you bother to read his story?

There is no point in pretending. Yes, we share core tenets, but only because Protestantism has not entirely abandoned the faith once given to the Church. False ecumenism is not how to win people to the Truth taught by Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

so that's how you see us fd. :o
false brethren?

am i to assume this?

Jason,

I presume you know how "assume" breaks down?

I never said anything about "false brethern", and am ashamed that you would even think that of me. I love my separated brothers and strive to teach them the Gospel as given to us, never do I call Protestants "false brothers".

What is false is some of the teachings of Protestantism - thus "protesters"... But the Church nor I ever calls them "false brothers".

Regards

 

[Mike]

Mujahid Abdullah

I dont judge you guys by those standards, just as I expect not to be judged by shia standards. I understand the minor disagreements in your faith, and I am able to distinguish one from another for the most part.

....I do not beleive Islam sprang from christianity and local customs. I say it is a continuation of Judaism, and Christianity, a natural progression. But an anthropologic studie would see it borrowed from Judaism and Christianity equally.

It is the Islamic interpretation of 'Judiasm and Christianity' that is the problem for Christians. In the other post I spoke of an apostolic faith. It is the lack of conformity to an apostolic faith that is the problem Christians face internally within the Church. The resurrection of Christ is central to this apostolic understanding - this is not negotiable and we cannot and do not relinguish this belief to find common accord with other religions. So historically, if Christ was not raised from the dead, Christians are the most miserable of all men and our witness before God and men can be dismissed.

Of course what distinguishes Christians from Judaism is the acceptance of Christ as the Messiah. Judaism also rejects the resurrection of Christ.

Nicely said, stranger. Christianity as a name, and certain the Lord, is not served by allowing core doctrine like the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection to be compromised.

MA, I was particularly interested to read your thoughts on the account of Paul in the other thread. Certainly, once he arrived at Damascus, you would believe he had witnesses to the events thereafter. I'm bringing your point up there to reason this all out combined with what you say here. What have you to say to the apostles who went to their deaths knowing what they actually witnessed? They knew it was true or it wasn't. It wasn't a belief at that point, so it isn't the same as people dying over a belief today. We've seen all to often people go to death over religion today. But who would die over something they knew to be a lie? I might, in their place lie up to a point, but I'm not going to allow myself to be killed over it. And what of all the accounts people gave, where there could have been endless documentation to the contrary, yet there is none. People were still alive when these claims were made and could have snuffed them out as they were being spread.

Thanks, Mujahid!
Mike

 

[francisdesales]

Now pre reformation Christianity had a set of problems all of its own, we dont have to go over them, because you guys are probably fully aware of them and have distain for them.

I am not speaking about the abuses that led to the Reformation.

I do know that what remains of pre reformation christianity, i.e. catholicism, has alot of simalarities to Islam, but they are more dissimalar than alike.

It depends on what the topic is, my friend. Islamic and Catholic mysticism is not that far removed from each other, when speaking of The Unknowable God. There is a common spirituality that Catholics and Muslims share, for example...

I am not pretending there are no differences, and I realize that there are some big issues.

I do not beleive Islam sprang from christianity and local customs. I say it is a continuation of Judaism, and Christianity, a natural progression. But an anthropologic studie would see it borrowed from Judaism and Christianity equally.

I fail to see the distinction you are making, because Catholicism ITSELf sprang forth from Judaism that saw Jesus Christ as the Risen Messiah. I would be interested to find out what "Jewish" items Islam borrowed that were not already part of Catholicism in 600 AD in the MIddle East...

Regards

 

[Mike]

How did Paul have witnesses to the event after the event occured?

Ananias, and then the apostles who witnessed such a staggering change in him.

" 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength."

So you are judging my words with the assumption that I beleive the Apostles actually said and beleived what is attributed to them, I do not, I have no idea what they beleived or said, it is all gone. According to our faith the Apostles and Jesus(AS) were rightous, and according to our faith to be rightous means that they worshipped Allah/God/Yahweh alone, with no partners, no trinities, no offspring.

You're right. I assumed too much. But you (in your faith) are assuming too much by dismissing what was said and assuming they were made up. We judge history by historical accounts all the time. That's how history is recorded.

The way I see it Islam is the perfect blend of the two. Jews do not have to love God, they only have to go through the rituals. Christians, have no rituals, they say you only have to love God and accept Him. In Islam nurtures both aspects of religion, meanimg, without love for Allah, the rituals we perform are all in vain.

I see your point, though not "rituals", we are called to put our faith into action. I feel I spelled that out well enough in the post several above where I posted a number of verses that speak to this. We need to be "new creations", that our lives will reflect the change in us. But we don't need to perform ritualistic tasks to be right with God. The fulfillment of the law by Jesus stripped us of the need to perform rituals by His Sacrifice. It's a beautiful thing!

Thanks again, Mujahid.
Mike

 

[stranger]

Mike wrote:

MA, I was particularly interested to read your thoughts on the account of Paul in the other thread. Certainly, once he arrived at Damascus, you would believe he had witnesses to the events thereafter. I'm bringing your point up there to reason this all out combined with what you say here. What have you to say to the apostles who went to their deaths knowing what they actually witnessed? They knew it was true or it wasn't. It wasn't a belief at that point, so it isn't the same as people dying over a belief today. We've seen all to often people go to death over religion today. But who would die over something they knew to be a lie? I might, in their place lie up to a point, but I'm not going to allow myself to be killed over it. And what of all the accounts people gave, where there could have been endless documentation to the contrary, yet there is none. People were still alive when these claims were made and could have snuffed them out as they were being spread.

What have you to say to the apostles who went to their deaths knowing what they actually witnessed?

Their witness was sealed by their own blood. Not sure what the other context was about - was it about 2nd generation apostles or just Pauls conversion?

take care

 

[Mike]

by rituals I mean those acts in our religion which are obligatory, 5 prayers a day at appointed times, the fast of Ramadhan. I dont beleive chritians are obliged to any specific acts, but yes you have explained that acts are required of christians.

this discussion has actually given me insight into why non muslims have such a hard time comprehending Islamic terrorism, and why they fear it so much. Christian/western understanding of religion and interpretation of religion is very loose. This is evident in the various interpretatins I get on different Issues by christians. In your minds, anyone can interpret the Quran and hadeeth to justify terrorism, while as a Muslim I, and most Muslims around the world, find these interpretations as perposterous. We also have a strict law against those who are qualified to interpret Quran and hadeeth. So when a laymen with no Islamic education like Bin Laden issues fatwas, most Muslims dismiss them right away. This strict system comforts me, I know the law, I know who to trust on matters of religion, I can look at the credentials of a Muslim and know wheather he is a trustworthy scholar or not. I know who can be considered a scholar and who is just a knucklehead with an opinion.
Christianity did not offer that for me, it was a crap shoot finding a qualified interpreter of scripture. And though you guys have done agreat job showing to me why you guys still beleive in christianity, I can not rectify my quarels with it.

Mujahid, this was a wonderful response. I hope you stay to contribute for a long time. Gaining understanding will be of real substance, though we are separated in the most meaningful area of our lives. I moderate the "Christianity & Other Religions" forum. I, and I'm sure others, would love for you to post threads on them individually in that forum. If you were to go down your list here, it would result in mas-confusion with responses to different thoughts flying all around.

I was very impressed by your response to the new member's inquiry this late evening. You acknowledged that you are a Muslim, and went on to give him sound advice. Assuming you maintain your kind approach, we will have wonderful discussions. I never mean to offend anyone, so if I come off that way, please let me know. I'm very thankful you are here, and I'm looking forward to breaking down your "quarrels" in their own threads.

Be blessed,
Mike

 

[francisdesales]

Now FD, I see your logic, it appears to be like a relay race, where the jews handed the baton to you guys, you handed it us,

Naturally, we don't see a "handing of the baton" from Catholicism to Islam, and I think Catholics who are more knowledgeable about their faith and history would probably think that Catholicism/Christianity have not received a "baton" from Judaism. Probably would be more accurate to say that the unnecessary signs from Judaism are no longer needed, now that God has manifested Himself in the Christ. The Old Covenant pointed to the New Covenant, and so the particulars of national Judaism, such as circumcision and dietary laws, are in of themselves not salvific or concern God, since God has opened ALL of mankind to His Love. Thus, one doesn't need to be a "national Jew", but a "spiritual Jew", as Paul wrote to the Romans, chapter 2.

Those who have faith in God, so to speak, are "spiritual Jews", faith in the one True God, a God who has slowly revealed things about Himself. The signs are no longer needed once we reach the destination, correct? So, as Paul wrote, the Old is abrogated, and particulars of Judaism that set them apart from other nations (dietary laws) are no longer of value. Old things drop away, but the heart of Judaism remains in Catholicism, and, in many cases, Islam.

We see signs of this in the Old Testament, but Scriptures do not tell us that God will abrogated again this New Covenant and form another that reverts to some of the OT signs...I'll explain that in the next comment.

but if take a deeper look at the practices of Islam, you will see that both Muslims and christians share common beleifs Jews dont, and Jews and Muslims hold common beleifs christians dont. Most obvious one, being dietery restrictions, Jewish law and Sharia law have much in common (I only include this because while christians beleive in Jewish law, they feel no need to follow it),

On dietary restrictions, these are cultural rules and regulations meant to set the People of God, the Jews, apart from other nations in the Old Testament. But God has broken down this requirement of His People. He has made it clear that He no longer desires such sacrifices, as much as the circumcised heart, the sorrow and contrite man, REGARDLESS of his diet or culture clothes, etc...

In this aspect, Islam has gone back to a cultural idea of God's People, when God has redeemed mankind and ANY man can have faith in God without worrying about what sort of food to eat or clothes to wear. God's People, the children of Abraham, are so because of their faith in Him, not the food they choose not to eat. Again, Paul makes that point in Romans - God is not changing His mind and returning to that!

Now, is this something Mohemmed took upon himself to re-activate among his followers, I defer to you, I don't know. But I see it as a reversion to an abrogated Law. One's diet does not save, nor does it make someone preferred in the eyes of God.

We fast on the 10th of Muharram, a custom Jews also partake in. With catholics we have much in common as well our reverence for jesus(AS)(although yours outweighs ours by far), and many of the spiritual aspects of religion.

I think on many general issues, we do share much in common. I have already told you why that is - although you disagree, I think Islam really is not a new religion, but a re-fashioning, a simplification of what was already known in the area, Catholicism. The idea of God as a personal God, all powerful and the creator of the universe, life after death, angels and demons, Judgment by God (Jesus, interestingly, for Muslims, as well as Christians...) of course, stems from Catholicism/Judaism. Some historians would even say that Islam foreshadowed the Western Protestant Reformation in wanting to remove the sacramanental system, priests, etc, with the addition of a strongly Arianistic view of the Messiah's pre-existent identity. I find that tantalizing.

I do find it interesting that there is a very strong veneration of Mary, something we Catholics share with Islam. I would note that this veneration was very strong during the time frame when Islam was first being taught and Nestorainism was a popular heresy in the Middle East during the 400-600 time frame. Of course, Nestorianism focuses on the identity of who Christ is by naming his mother (Christokos v Theotokos). Note, Nestorianism does not like "Mother of God" for Mary, which denies who Jesus Himself is, something that Mohemmed took up shortly.

As you can see, a fundamental belief is established by a counter-view point to an orthodox Catholic viewpoint.

The way I see it Islam is the perfect blend of the two. Jews do not have to love God, they only have to go through the rituals. Christians, have no rituals, they say you only have to love God and accept Him. In Islam nurtures both aspects of religion, meanimg, without love for Allah, the rituals we perform are all in vain.

I do not agree that Jews do not have to love God - they see their rituals as the sign of their obedience to the Covenant made between God and themselves, and thus, you are parrotting the old Protestant idea of Judaism prevealent in the 20th century. Fortunately, many wiser Protestants are distancing themselves from that error.

Catholicism has a number of rituals, my friend!!! But as I said before, your idea of Christianity comes from your background as a non-denominational Christian, HARDLY telling of true Christianity, esp. in the Middle East, the land of the home of your prophet, Mohemmed.

Perhaps you may want to consider looking at exploring Eastern Orthodoxy, which is more prevealent form of Catholicism (from during the time of Islam's formation, Catholicism included Greek Orthdoxy) where Islam began.

I thoroughly agre that ALL THREE religions consider rituals as vain if done without the Love of God. Even Judaism has a strong sense of that, if you have read the "Minor Prophets" it is impossible to miss, nearly every one of them cites that idea.

Christian fasting, for example, is meaningless if we are not crucifying the passions for the sake of God.

My friend, our mysticism is not that different, although we do center upon different ideas of Who God is (Trinity or a Eucharistic background for us)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Mujahid, this was a wonderful response. I hope you stay to contribute for a long time. Gaining understanding will be of real substance, though we are separated in the most meaningful area of our lives. I moderate the "Christianity & Other Religions" forum. I, and I'm sure others, would love for you to post threads on them individually in that forum. If you were to go down your list here, it would result in mas-confusion with responses to different thoughts flying all around.

I was very impressed by your response to the new member's inquiry this late evening. You acknowledged that you are a Muslim, and went on to give him sound advice. Assuming you maintain your kind approach, we will have wonderful discussions. I never mean to offend anyone, so if I come off that way, please let me know. I'm very thankful you are here, and I'm looking forward to breaking down your "quarrels" in their own threads.

Be blessed,
Mike

Mike,

I agree, I hope to learn more about Islam directly from someone who practices devoutly the faith. That is why I am here in the first place, to learn more about other Christians. Now, I can learn about Muslims. Glad to see Mujahid here.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

by rituals I mean those acts in our religion which are obligatory, 5 prayers a day at appointed times, the fast of Ramadhan. I dont beleive chritians are obliged to any specific acts, but yes you have explained that acts are required of christians.

this discussion has actually given me insight into why non muslims have such a hard time comprehending Islamic terrorism, and why they fear it so much. Christian/western understanding of religion and interpretation of religion is very loose. This is evident in the various interpretatins I get on different Issues by christians. In your minds, anyone can interpret the Quran and hadeeth to justify terrorism, while as a Muslim I, and most Muslims around the world, find these interpretations as perposterous. We also have a strict law against those who are qualified to interpret Quran and hadeeth. So when a laymen with no Islamic education like Bin Laden issues fatwas, most Muslims dismiss them right away. This strict system comforts me, I know the law, I know who to trust on matters of religion, I can look at the credentials of a Muslim and know wheather he is a trustworthy scholar or not. I know who can be considered a scholar and who is just a knucklehead with an opinion.
Christianity did not offer that for me, it was a crap shoot finding a qualified interpreter of scripture. And though you guys have done agreat job showing to me why you guys still beleive in christianity, I can not rectify my quarels with it.

That is some excellent insight, and something I hadn't made the connection - being a Westener and thinking that Islam had fallen into the trap of private interpretation as Protestantism. Why would they?!! This makes sense, since many of the Islamic terrorists are indeed Western-trained men who studied and accept the ideals of the Enlightenment, where everything is subject to the individual's own rationale, rather than submitting to another whom God has appointed.

I would be interested to hear more on this topic, if you get the opportunity, since I, too, respect the authoritative interpretation of Scriptures from someone other than myself...

Regards

 

[stranger]

Mujahid Abdullah wrote:

this discussion has actually given me insight into why non muslims have such a hard time comprehending Islamic terrorism, and why they fear it so much. Christian/western understanding of religion and interpretation of religion is very loose. This is evident in the various interpretatins I get on different Issues by christians. In your minds, anyone can interpret the Quran and hadeeth to justify terrorism, while as a Muslim I, and most Muslims around the world, find these interpretations as perposterous. We also have a strict law against those who are qualified to interpret Quran and hadeeth. So when a laymen with no Islamic education like Bin Laden issues fatwas, most Muslims dismiss them right away. This strict system comforts me, I know the law, I know who to trust on matters of religion, I can look at the credentials of a Muslim and know wheather he is a trustworthy scholar or not. I know who can be considered a scholar and who is just a knucklehead with an opinion.
Christianity did not offer that for me, it was a crap shoot finding a qualified interpreter of scripture. And though you guys have done agreat job showing to me why you guys still beleive in christianity, I can not rectify my quarels with it.

Hi Mujahid,

The problem isn't Bin Laden (although he has broader support then you make out) or individual muslims interpreting the Quran for themselves - it's the 'clerics,teachers --Imams'. Granted there are radicals and extremists teachers in every religion but in Australia the problem has been the moderate Imams- their comments and attitudes wind the clock back to 9/11. And this is in the public forum where the press make matters worse. It raises the question: What goes on behind closed doors that isn't made public?

Another even more serious problem is when Muslims failure to assimilate into a western culture like Australia. This is a breeding ground of all manner of problems for disinfranchised, marginalised, Muslim youth. Importing immans from places like Egypt to teach at senior levels, who can bearly speak English nor have little knowledge of culture in Australia, is a receipe for disaster. So the strict system of who is qualified to teach, is basically flawed. I've even come to the conclusion:

that out of moderates extremists will arise without outside influence.

This goes beyond home grown terrorism!

About the quality of Christian literature - its a market place. There are treasures amongst the cheaper merchandise. Your opinions will be influence by what you read - if you want to know about Hinduism - read what Hindus say about themselves, if you want to know about Islam read their literature - and if you want to know about Christians read what Christians have to say. It would be a waste of time reading third party written anti- Christian, Islamic or Hindu literature.

take care

 

[jasoncran]

if you dont accept the the triuneness of God and that jesus is a diety then you dont worship the same God.

the jews had the proper worship at one time ,but they dont accept the diety of christ and are out :verysad

theres no way until the father save the son, the god-man jesus(when he was on earth) and the Son on the right hand of the father.