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Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

Rom. 8:1 might help your good post?
--Elijah

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Yes, for by the grace of God allowing us through Christ's ransom to have this opportunity in Christ we are able to walk with a clean conscience (free of condemnation) unhampered by our past. IF we "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".

1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 
I was working on that last post when you posted this.

Perhaps you can identify specifically what it is I am saying that is confusing you? For I believe that throughout my posts I have answered that question many times.

I do not think that you have answered the simple question of whether or not Christ is IN YOU..

Christ does not literally live in men.

That's odd, my bible says that if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of His.. Paul also speaks to the Galatians about Christ being 'formed' in them.. and in Colossians he speaks of Christ IN YOU, our hope of glory..

SO I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christ does not literally live within the Christian.. of course we're not talking physically, but rather Spiritually.

See.. many people do not understand that Christ lives within them.. it seems like yourself included.

Here is the verse that men use to claim that Christ does. But what is it really saying?

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

That then brings what Paul said down to this: Romans 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Paul there says that Christ living in him depends upon "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God". So it is our faith in Christ that causes us to walk in the footsteps of Christ. And if we by faith walk as Christ walks that is as if Christ lives in us. For we walk according to his will (his spirit) rather than our own. And that means something because it is a choice we make. It is not something that is done for us. It is something we choose to do. And when we choose to do it God blesses our efforts at doing it. He reaches in to help us with a little help, but not so much as would harm our growth to maturity.

You didn't explain what Gal 2:20 means.. you went on to another scripture which has nothing to do with that one..

I'm getting the feeling that you're a Calvinist and can't come to grips with the fact that you're not the elect, but rather that Christ is..

Being a Christian is dependent upon BELIEVING the gospel and THEN having God miruculously seal us with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Him until the redemption of the purchased posession, unto the praise of His glory... and we know that even a born again Christian can walk in the flesh at times and be carnal.. (who doesn't at times have problems with the sin which so easily besets us).. although that doesn't mean that God takes them out of Christ.. if anything the scriptures talk about His chastisement towards His sons and daughters.

Do you realize that even the old man there at Colossians 3:9 is the one body of flesh of Adam?

Yes, flesh gives birth to flesh and there's nothing good in it.. that's why we are to put him off because he is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts..

It's interesting.. you don't actually believe that Christ is in you, do you ?
 
I do not think that you have answered the simple question of whether or not Christ is IN YOU..



That's odd, my bible says that if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of His.. Paul also speaks to the Galatians about Christ being 'formed' in them.. and in Colossians he speaks of Christ IN YOU, our hope of glory..

SO I'm not sure where you get the idea that Christ does not literally live within the Christian.. of course we're not talking physically, but rather Spiritually.

See.. many people do not understand that Christ lives within them.. it seems like yourself included.



You didn't explain what Gal 2:20 means.. you went on to another scripture which has nothing to do with that one..

I'm getting the feeling that you're a Calvinist and can't come to grips with the fact that you're not the elect, but rather that Christ is..

Being a Christian is dependent upon BELIEVING the gospel and THEN having God miruculously seal us with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Him until the redemption of the purchased posession, unto the praise of His glory... and we know that even a born again Christian can walk in the flesh at times and be carnal.. (who doesn't at times have problems with the sin which so easily besets us).. although that doesn't mean that God takes them out of Christ.. if anything the scriptures talk about His chastisement towards His sons and daughters.



Yes, flesh gives birth to flesh and there's nothing good in it.. that's why we are to put him off because he is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts..

It's interesting.. you don't actually believe that Christ is in you, do you ?

Peace be with you friend. You evidently have not been desiring to closely look at what I have said to you.

That is OK. I still love you. I was only sharing with you as I thought that was what you wanted.

I am by no means trying to force another belief upon you. I do not consider it my job to try to change you. Paul planted, Apollos watered, and God made it grow. Therefore I do not vex over such things. It is not my place to judge or to vex.

Now that it is clear you do not appreciate what I am telling you, I can no longer view it as a sharing but a torment to you and I will therefore cease it for love's sake.

God will not keep us away from salvation just because we do not have perfect knowledge. He will keep us from salvation much quicker if we care not to love.

Therefore know that I love you and I leave you in peace.
 
Now that it is clear you do not appreciate what I am telling you, I can no longer view it as a sharing but a torment to you and I will therefore cease it for love's sake.

God will not keep us away from salvation just because we do not have perfect knowledge. He will keep us from salvation much quicker if we care not to love.

Therefore know that I love you and I leave you in peace.

lol.. I love you too friend.. even if you're a Calvinist.
 
lol.. I love you too friend.. even if you're a Calvinist.

Hey, come to think of it my little brother's name is Calvin. :lol

Do you know him or something? :lol

But don't be silly, I don't follow my little brother. :lol

I mean I love him and all that but you know, let's not be rediculous! :lol
 
This is not the general conversation message board. This thread is about Trinitarianism.

Thank you most kind sir for that helpful information.

I thought it was a place to accuse people of being Calvinist there has been so much of it. :lol
 
With the permission of the Mods I am now ready to make this thread post. I will send you the link so you can preview it.
Who really cares what Non-Trinitarians believe? Non-Trinitarians don't care what Trinitarians believe, do they? This site should deal with more normal, orthodox doctrines than chasing "every wind of doctrine" and strange idea that comes along in the name of Christ and of Christianity. Go figure. In Erie/ Scott
 
I have posted a detailed argument in support of the Trinity position in posts 85 and 86. I do not think any of those who deny the truthfulness of the Trinity position have actually dealt with that argument.

Clearly, if the "The Trinity is a false doctrine" is to be legitimately sustained, the argument presented in posts 85 and 86 must be addressed.

That argument supports the Trinity position to the extent that it demonstrates that Jesus clearly sees Himself embodying the promised return of YHWH to His people.
 
I have posted a detailed argument in support of the Trinity position in posts 85 and 86. I do not think any of those who deny the truthfulness of the Trinity position have actually dealt with that argument.

Clearly, if the "The Trinity is a false doctrine" is to be legitimately sustained, the argument presented in posts 85 and 86 must be addressed.

That argument supports the Trinity position to the extent that it demonstrates that Jesus clearly sees Himself embodying the promised return of YHWH to His people.
Yes, I have noticed that most of the strong arguments are ignored in favor of passages which have the appearance showing Christ was created. I really would like to see some put some substantial effort in engaging your argument.
 
Post 2 of 2 of an argument for the "divinity" of Jesus:

Much of the gospel of Luke is the story of Jesus’ journey to Jerusalem. Towards the end of that journey, Jesus tells the parable of the returning king – the story of a king who goes away and then returns to call his servants to account. This parable is found in Luke 19:11 and following.

This parable has almost universally been understood to constitute a statement by Jesus that He will go away, though crucifixion, resurrection, and then ascension, only to return in the future (i.e. in the 2nd coming). On such a reading, Jesus sets Himself, as He tells the parable, in the role of the king who is about to leave.

I suggest this is not the correct reading. Instead, we should understand that in telling the parable, Jesus is setting Himself in the role of the returning king, not the departing one. On such a reading, the departing king represents YHWH leaving his people by abandoning the temple and sending the Jews into exile, something that lies in the past of Jesus’ audience. If this interpretation is correct, Jesus can logically fill only one role in the parable: YHWH returning to Zion as promised. And this means, of course, that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel’s God.

Why should we read the parable this way? Well, for starters, the parable does not really work on its traditional reading. Note what happens to the third servant – all that he has is taken from him. This really cannot be reconciled with the notion that the returning King is Jesus at his 2nd coming, calling his people to account. Nowhere in the New Testament is there even the slightest suggestion that any of Jesus’ followers will be cast out and lose all at Jesus’ 2nd coming as the parable would seem to suggest on the traditional reading. It is clear from the scriptures that that believers who “build with hay and stubble†will still be saved. So it is very hard to make the parable work with Jesus as the King about to go away and return at a 2nd coming.

Besides, consideration of what happens next makes it clear that Jesus is setting himself in the role of the returning king. Note what happens after parable is told – Jesus rides on to Jerusalem and, upon seeing it, says the following:

"If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

Clearly, Jesus sees Himself as the King returning in visitation, returning to judge Jerusalem who is set in the role of the unfaithful 3rd servant. If, as many believe, the returning King in the parable is Jesus at His second coming, then it would be deeply misleading for Jesus to give the parable then immediately ride into Jerusalem as He does, to palm branches waving no less, with all the imagery of a returning King that this action clearly evokes. No. Jesus clearly intends his listeners to understand that He is the returning King, not the departing one. In giving this parable and then riding into the royal city as a king, Jesus is clearly telling us that He, through this teaching and these actions, is embodying the fulfillment of the hoped for return of YHWH to his people. And what does Jesus do next?:

Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it 'a den of robbers.'

Note how this maps perfectly to this prophecy about the return of YHWH to his people:

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

The overall picture is clear. As per an earlier post, we have the strong Biblical tradition of the promised return of YHWH to Zion (and his temple) after the time of the exile. Now here, in Luke, we have the journey of a young Jew named Jesus to Jerusalem. As He is about to enter, He tells a parable of a king who goes away and then returns. Next, He laments over Jerusalem and declares that she is not recognizing His mission as a “visitationâ€. In the context of Jews who saw themselves still in exile, and still awaiting the return of YHWH, Jesus’ intended meaning is clear. In saying that Jerusalem has not recognized her visitation, He is saying that she has failed to recognize that, in His very actions, the promised return of YHWH to Zion is being fulfilled. And then Jesus enters the temple and overturns the tables in judgement, fulfilling the Malach 3 promise that YHWH will come suddenly to the temple in judgement. The coherence of this picture is compelling. Jesus is embodying the return of YHWH to Zion. And that, of course, makes Him the embodiment of Israel’s God.

This is why arguments like “Jesus cannot be divine since Jesus was tempted and God cannot be tempted†are a spectacular exercise in missing the point. Such arguments assume a model for the nature of God-hood and human-ness and then leverage that assumption to make the case against Jesus’ divinity. Well, we should be getting our concepts of who YHWH is from the Old Testament, not from conceptual definitions with no connection to the Jewish worldview. And in the Old Testament, YHWH is the one who has left His people and promised to return. When Jesus, then, so obviously sees Himself as embodying that promised return, that, and not vague conceptual arguments, makes the case that Jesus sees Himself as the incarnation of Israel’s God. Again, the conceptual arguments you make are deeply misleading since they are built on a model of the “boundaries†between god and man that make no reference at all to the Scriptures.
I ignored your post because you are mixing scriptures. You are confusing Yahwah with Yahshua. Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you.
 
Who really cares what Non-Trinitarians believe? Non-Trinitarians don't care what Trinitarians believe, do they? This site should deal with more normal, orthodox doctrines than chasing "every wind of doctrine" and strange idea that comes along in the name of Christ and of Christianity. Go figure. In Erie/ Scott
Who says Catholic doctrine is orthodox? The Judaizing Christians who were in possession of the original scriptures or copies were burned to death with the scriptures. The Catholics replaced the scriptures with their own versions.
 
The CC..

Who says Catholic doctrine is orthodox? The Judaizing Christians who were in possession of the original scriptures or copies were burned to death with the scriptures. The Catholics replaced the scriptures with their own versions.

IMO most people in the world associate 'the church' with the Catholic Church because that is largely what they 'see' in the world.. an extremely wealthy worldly institution which claims to be the one true church of God.. and who would blame most of the world for being 'turned off' so to speak because of what the actually do.. I was told once that a Jew would never come to Christianity because they can easily see the endless hypocrisy in the CC, especially by its leaders.

So I would agree with your 'disgust' so to speak with the CC, it's perhaps one of the biggest turn offs to coming to Christ, because that's what most people associate the church with... and who would want to become a part of that ?
 
Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym); besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym) in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the LORD (Yahwah) is one (only.)

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym) and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am the LORD (Yahwah); that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.


Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant (Yahshua) whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god (el) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God (Eloah=God above) besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."



Isaiah 45:5. I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other; apart from me there is no God (Elohiym).

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what the LORD (Yahwah) says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans— they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God (El) is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what the LORD (Yahwah) says: He who created the heavens, He is God (Elohiym); He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God (El), and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God (El), and there is no other; I am God (Elohiym), and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD (Yahwah) your God (Elohiym), and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.


Yahwah is God and he won't give his glory to another god.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the Lord (Yahwah) is one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God (Yahwah) is one (only) and there is no other but Him.


John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
 
Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym); besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym) in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the LORD (Yahwah) is one (only.)

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym) and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am the LORD (Yahwah); that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.


Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant (Yahshua) whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god (el) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God (Eloah=God above) besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."



Isaiah 45:5. I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other; apart from me there is no God (Elohiym).

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what the LORD (Yahwah) says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans— they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God (El) is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what the LORD (Yahwah) says: He who created the heavens, He is God (Elohiym); He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God (El), and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God (El), and there is no other; I am God (Elohiym), and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD (Yahwah) your God (Elohiym), and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.


Yahwah is God and he won't give his glory to another god.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the Lord (Yahwah) is one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God (Yahwah) is one (only) and there is no other but Him.


John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
There is no disagreement with the Trinity here.
 
God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...

Also Here:

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you.

Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.
 
I ignored your post because you are mixing scriptures. You are confusing Yahwah with Yahshua. Hosea 11:9
You are begging the question. The argument is what it is - please deal with it.

Over and over again, this argument of mine gets ignored - and this is very telling. A point of method: people who believe that Jesus is not "God" cannot, legitimately anyway simply ignore the argument and appeal to other texts, like this one from Hosea. The Hosea text needs to be dealt with, of course.

But there is something fundamentally wrong going on here. Here is what has happened:

1. Drew posted an argument A that Jesus is God;
2. Judaic Christian responds with an argument B that suggests otherwise.

That is not enough to overturn A! You need to actually show why A is wrong by engaging A itself. If we believe that all scripture is inspired, then there must be something wrong with A if your position is to be sustained.

If you do not engage A on its own terms - by actually showing how it is mistaken - then the objective reader will, even if he buys your Hosea argument, reason as follows:

1. One Biblical argument (Drew's) supports the assertion that Jesus is God;
2. Another Biblical argument (Judaic's) supports the assertion that Jesus is not God;

Therefore, the Bible is not inerrant.

So, please tell us, where is the error in my argument? And, to be fair, I need to respond to your Hosea text for my part.
 
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