TRUE HOLINESS

[Deborah13]

That first Reba was bought...it was a legality

Really! I'll have to read that again. Shame on me.

 

[Deborah13]

I can only find the gifts. So I guess they were really gifts as much as payment.

 

[George Muller]

first he claimed he "never" did any of these things,

Which things.

You accuse me of sinning at things.

Then you say those who are under grace walk in the Spirit and are not under the law.

Which is it.

If you say I sin, what sin do you accuse me of George.

I don't practice any sin.

I don't do any of the sins of Galatians 5.

What I am guilty of is not Loving God the way He deserves.

What I am guilty of is not loving others the way God does.

Therefore I am guilty of all the whole law and deserve eternal condemnation.


JLB

Now you say you don't "do" any of these things? Ever? For you made that claim before and then changed it to "practice" and said that was the "key" term. Which sounds to me as if you are just excusing away your own flesh, by playing games with words. "you don't do it as much as others" is not the biblical standard. "Comparing themselves amongst themselves" in itself is evidence of carnal religion and those who do such things cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

You don't like being shown from the word what a hypocrite you really are, so you attack me with your twisting accusations.

This is typical of those who make the grace of God a license to sin.

Again what sin do you accuse me of George?




JLB

No JLB, I live righteous and Godly, apart from hypocrisy and according to the Royal Law. I do not try to condemn others by a standard I do not keep. I ask you again, do you "do" any of these things? If you say "practice" then what does that mean to you. Does it mean you don't "do" them as much as others? That is not a biblical standard, but a carnal standard. And those who are "carnal" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Hypocrisy, is that sin that Gods hates above all others. The Royal Law never judges others by one standard, and then allows oneself to excuse away the standard by playing games with words like "practice". The "royal law" loves others as one loves themselves and would never commit such ungodliness.

 

[George Muller]

of course it is;
Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

For one to try to deny this clear and evident truth, shows how "free-will" is a blinding and prideful religion.

The sin that spread to all humans was do not eat of the tree...

He disobeyed God's Voice.

This was not written and engraved on stones.

The law of sin and death was seen in the garden.

You are confusing the law of sin and death with the law of Moses.

Next I guess you will try to tell us the law of gravity is also the ten commandments.

The law of sin and death is what Lucifer violated that got him thrown out of heaven.


JLB

So what point do you think your making? Yes, "sin" came by the tree of Knowledge of good and evil, it is in the flesh of all men. The law (Ten Commandments) was to make this condition known, but has no power to deliver the flesh from sin, in fact it produces sinful lust in the flesh. So one cannot be delivered from sin until they are delivered from the law- "For the strength of sin, is the law" For a believer to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the "the law of sin and death", for a believer to turn from grace back to the law IS THE GREATEST BIBLICAL SIN.

The point I am making is the law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

The law of sin and death of Romans 7 is what Adam transgressed in the garden, by which death was spread to all mankind.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22

That is not the 10 commandment.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

the law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments is the law of God, not the law of sin and death.


JLB

Well of course the Ten Commandments are called the "ministry of death and condemnation" of course when Paul teaches that the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death, he is speaking directly concerning the 10 Commandments that condemns and are the judgment of death against the sin that dwells in all men. So you may think you are playing more games with words, but this is just your "carnal" mind at the work of false religion. Those who do such things cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[George Muller]

The argument that is being thrown down here is your contention that simply reading the Word and then doing it (by the Spirit) is exactly equivalent to legalism. That is NOT legalism.

Well faith working by love are how one judges. If it is not of faith it is sin, if it does not keep the Royal Law it is not of the Spirit. So I have seen no evidence that you have any understanding of these things as it relates to doctrine. Because you throw in a term "spirit" into the middle of legalistic doctrine, does not mean anything as it relates to sound doctrine.

 

[George Muller]

The law reveals us to be sinners. That is how it puts us to death. But the Bible plainly says that after we are put to death by the law (because we are sinners, not because the holy, righteous, and good law is bad) we then 'uphold the law' by the Spirit of God. Legalism is NOT reading the Word of God and then upholding it through the ministry of the Spirit of God. That's absurd.

Legalism is reading the Word and then doing it in the hope of earning that which only faith in the blood of Christ can give--a declaration of rigtheousness, aka 'justification'. Righteousness is attained by having your sins removed through forgiveness, not removed through the effort of doing righteous things. That is impossible to do. That is what Paul's argument is ALL about. He's not arguing that walking by the Spirit (oh, how that phrase gets abused!) means you do not, and should not, read the law of Moses, and then seek to uphold it's righteous (moral) requirements, relying solely on the voice of the Spirit to tell you what, and what not, to do. That's charismatic hogwash.

No, your in great error. The flesh is still the fountain of "sin" and because of the flesh, the "letter" is death, it is ONLY through the "Spirit" that the flesh is put to death. Try making your points according to the scripture, and maybe you will see your error?

 

[George Muller]

First biblical knowledge and growth is not based upon the wisdom of this world, it is the exact opposite. One must become a fool to be made wise, and the Cross is the point of all true wisdom. So "wisdom" is a product of humility and rejection of mans wisdom. One must become weak to be made strong. And again I see that you have made no point other than to again boast in yourself, I boast in the Cross and my own foolishness and weakness, and the wisdom I have is that wisdom God gives to the humble, it cannot be defeated.

I could not have made my point any clearer, and there is nothing in that post that can be interpreted as boasting of any kind. The only thing that can't be defeated here is a closed mind that refuses to see what God clearly says in His word. That's not something you should be boasting about.

Now I believe this is your third post to me, in which you have spoken of nothing but your knowledge of the law, your math abilities, and now some sort of insult. Do you have a biblical point to make?

 

[George Muller]

Have You heard of the New Covenant?

Have your read what it actually says? I guess you must have, since you quoted it. But have you stopped and tried to understand what it means? I'm not as sure about that, so let's take a closer look.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer. 31:33-34 ESV)
​

This is God speaking through the prophet Jeremiah foretelling the New Covenant. He makes a reference to "my law". Can you show me any place in the Bible where that phrase, spoken by God Himself, refers to anything other than the law given on Mt. Sinai?

Well I do not have to do that, because the context proves beyond doubt that the "old" has been replaced. The "letter" has been replaced by the "Spirit" of God, in the heart of the Believer. Faith working by love is the ONLY obedience to God. "the law is not of faith"

Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[George Muller]

The law reveals us to be sinners. That is how it puts us to death. But the Bible plainly says that after we are put to death by the law (because we are sinners, not because the holy, righteous, and good law is bad) we then 'uphold the law' by the Spirit of God. Legalism is NOT reading the Word of God and then upholding it through the ministry of the Spirit of God. That's absurd.

Legalism is reading the Word and then doing it in the hope of earning that which only faith in the blood of Christ can give--a declaration of rigtheousness, aka 'justification'. Righteousness is attained by having your sins removed through forgiveness, not removed through the effort of doing righteous things. That is impossible to do. That is what Paul's argument is ALL about. He's not arguing that walking by the Spirit (oh, how that phrase gets abused!) means you do not, and should not, read the law of Moses, and then seek to uphold it's righteous (moral) requirements, relying solely on the voice of the Spirit to tell you what, and what not, to do. That's charismatic hogwash.

No, your in great error. The flesh is still the fountain of "sin" and because of the flesh, the "letter" is death, it is ONLY through the "Spirit" that the flesh is put to death. Try making your points according to the scripture, and maybe you will see your error?

What you and others fail to see or understand that it is the "free-gift" of righteousness and the power of that righteousness that overcomes the "flesh". So until one "receives the abundance of grace and free-gift of righteousness" and walks in that justified "spiritual" condition. They cannot be "in the Spirit" nor do they have real power over the sin that dwells in the flesh. Being "saved" is not a event it is a condition of the spirit that one must live in. The just shall "live" by faith.

 

[Eventide]

I've been around the block a few times and thought that I'd seen just about everything with respect to this stuff... although this thread is certainly pressing upon new highs..

It's staggering to me that condemned men can see themselves as though they're so far above others.. as if they're the only one around with the Spirit of Christ in them... and all others are confined to their fleshly ways..

Are you kidding yet ?

 

[JLB]

I ask you again, do you "do" any of these things?

What things?

I have asked you several times to be specific.

What things?

Hypocrisy, is that sin that Gods hates above all others. The Royal Law never judges others by one standard, and then allows oneself to excuse away the standard by playing games with words like "practice". The "royal law" loves others as one loves themselves and would never commit such ungodliness.

God hates hypocrisy.

You have been shown to be a hypocrite because you condemn others while making up unbiblical "rules" to excuse your own sin.

No JLB, I live righteous and Godly

How can you say you live righteous and Godly when you walk in an accusing condemning spirit that is not of God's kingdom.


JLB

 

[reba]

Personal attacks have closed this thread for review and clean up