TRUE HOLINESS

[Jethro Bodine]

Holiness:

Just means to keep blameless before God.

Holiness means keeping ourselves 'set apart' as God has ordained, and commanded us to be. We 'set ourselves apart' for service to God. This means not serving the corrupt, sinful desires of fallen flesh, dirtying up the holy vessels God has set us apart to be, but serving the things of God through the holy vessels we have become. The picture is of all the bowls and utensils used in Temple worship. They were set apart for service to God and were not to be profaned by using them for base purposes. That is how we also live 'set apart' (holy) lives. We don't use the holy vessels of our bodies, set apart for his purposes, for profane purposes.

1Ti_2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

what happens if they don't continue in that? Child might not make it.

I don't think that's the message Paul was trying to communicate.

I believe 'childbearing' here is a metonymy*..."a figure of speech in which a thing or concept is called not by its own name but rather by the name of something intimately associated with that thing or concept." *(http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AkDG7dXB_Dr9dxkF1p7OEF.bvZx4?fr=yfp-t-622-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=metonymy)

Childbearing represents everything it means to be an obedient, submissive wife and mother.

There are several verses in the Bible that talk about something we do 'saving' us. Some use those verses to defend a works righteousness gospel. What it means is, the faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works, is the faith that obeys, and so in that sense the obedience of faith 'saves' you on the Day of Wrath, that obedience being the evidence and proof of your faith in Christ. So, in the case of 'childbearing', the woman who lives obediently through her faith in Christ in effect is saved by that faith manifesting itself in the obedient submission expected and required of a believing, 'set apart' (holy) wife and mother.

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't think that's the message Paul was trying to communicate.

I believe 'childbearing' here is a metonymy*..."a figure of speech in which a thing or concept is called not by its own name but rather by the name of something intimately associated with that thing or concept." *(http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...-t-622-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=metonymy)

I read the Word very simple, and see no reason a mother could not stand and believe that her and the child would be safe.

The subject of the Article is women.

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I don’t permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.

teknogonia
childbirth (parentage), that is, (by implication) maternity

The women shall be saved in teknogonia if they continue.

I don't see how that would be metonymy because the Article in the Greek does not denote that.

If you want to take the Word as God told Eve there will be pain in Childbearing, the Word saved still means physical safety.

Saved:deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save

Childbearing represents everything it means to be an obedient, submissive wife and mother.

teknogonia Used once and does not denote what you said it means or even anything that it can be compared to mean what you said it means.

teknogoneō means to bear or be a produced child.

The root is Teknon and Ginomai = A produced child brought fourth as becoming into being, published.

Teknon means a child produced and it's base is very interesting..............

timōria
tee-mo-ree'-ah
From G5097; vindication, that is, (by implication) a penalty: - punishment.

From God punishment that childbearing will be painful I "ASSUME"

Childbearing represents everything it means to be an obedient, submissive wife and mother.

I have no idea where you got that from.

There are several verses in the Bible that talk about something we do 'saving' us. Some use those verses to defend a works righteousness gospel. What it means is, the faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works, is the faith that obeys

OK, I agree there are lots of things we are suppose to do, like put our body in subjection. Now that would be through faith, right? So what would that faith be to do these works? I am thinking I know the penalty by not obeying because by faith I trust the Word and what the Word says if I don't do what I am suppose to do. Also I know that by faith if I sow or give I reap, and by faith I know what God said happens for you if you stay on the path and obey.

So, someone that does not have a revelation (Faith) for the consequences of sin, though they know it's wrong but not the full understanding that they are producing death in their life, then I think it would be hard for them to stay obedient by faith, not having the faith to know that sin is like taking something out of the oven without mits on. Just a thought on how this faith might work.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

What Noah did was different from what Abraham did.

The common denominator of righteousness was obedience.

Not, as you say adhering to some unwritten set of rules. JLB

That doesn't make sense. You say that the common denominator was obedience, not adhering to a set of rulse. But that's exactly what the word "obedience" means - obeying or adhering to rules and commands. Dictionary.com puts it this way:

obey
verb (used with object)

1. to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of: to obey one's parents.
2. to comply with or follow (a command, restriction, wish, instruction, etc.).
3. (of things) to respond conformably in action to: The car obeyed the slightest touch of the steering wheel.
4. to submit or conform in action to (some guiding principle, impulse, one's conscience, etc.).

With this dictionary definition in mind, can you explain to me how you can obey without any rules or commands of any kind?

A]. You added the word commands to the discussion.

B]. You associating the standard of righteousness with the written word.

Abraham obeyed my Voice, my commandments, my precepts....

The emphasis is on a living relationship whereby Abraham walked with God, before any "written word" came from Moses, and the Prophets.

This is the foundation of the New Covenant, -

As it is written -


31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

Not according to the covenant at Sinai!

JLB

 

[reba]

The sky is blue.....

 

[JLB]

The sky is blue.....

Thank you Reba for a very well thought post.

That really clears up the confusion.

JLB

 

[reba]

JLB I was wondering how many and in what ways other members would disagree Did ya enjoy the time I was gone?

 

[TOG]

A]. You added the word commands to the discussion.

No, the dictionary did that. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Mr. Webster.

B]. You associating the standard of righteousness with the written word.

It's really impossible not to, since the standard of righteousness is revealed to us through the written word.

Abraham obeyed my Voice, my commandments, my precepts....
(emphasis by TOG)

Umm... Didn't you just say... Never mind...

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

The sky is blue.....

That's probably one of the best posts so far in this thread.

 

[JLB]

JLB I was wondering how many and in what ways other members would disagree Did ya enjoy the time I was gone?

You were gone?

JLB


reba says PERFECT answer


and totopic

 

[JLB]

A]. You added the word commands to the discussion.

No, the dictionary did that. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Mr. Webster.

B]. You associating the standard of righteousness with the written word.

It's really impossible not to, since the standard of righteousness is revealed to us through the written word.

Abraham obeyed my Voice, my commandments, my precepts....
(emphasis by TOG)

Umm... Didn't you just say... Never mind...

The TOG
​

That's the problem with your head knowledge that you gained from all the commentaries you "studied".

You can't seem to grasp the basic foundational element of righteousness.

You think it came from the law of Moses.

EDITED

JLB

 

[JLB]

A]. You added the word commands to the discussion.

No, the dictionary did that. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Mr. Webster.

B]. You associating the standard of righteousness with the written word.

It's really impossible not to, since the standard of righteousness is revealed to us through the written word.

Abraham obeyed my Voice, my commandments, my precepts....
(emphasis by TOG)

Umm... Didn't you just say... Never mind...

The TOG
​

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Are you under the impression that commandments here is a reference to the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[TOG]

That's the problem with your head knowledge that you gained from all the commentaries you "studied".

You can't seem to grasp the basic foundational element of righteousness.

You think it came from the law of Moses.

That's not what I said. What I said was:

...the standard of righteousness is revealed to us through the written word.

Do you have some definition of what constitutes righteousness outside of God's written word? If so, would you please share it with us? I'm sure there are people here who would love to hear how they can call themselves righteous while totally ignoring the written word.

edited

 

[reba]

I tried to ask nicely ..... Believe it or not Moderators don't like to interrupt the flow of discussion.



2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.


Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[TOG]

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Are you under the impression that commandments here is a reference to the law of Moses?

I am "under the impression", as you put it, that the phrase "my commandments, my statutes and my laws" is a reference to the whole of God's law. As I've said previously, I believe that God's law has never changed. Just as Cain knew about sacrifices and Noah knew about clean and unclean animals, so also Abraham knew about these things and others and obeyed God's will.

 

[JLB]

Do you have some definition of what constitutes righteousness outside of God's written word? If so, would you please share it with us? I'm sure there are people here who would love to hear how they can call themselves righteous while totally ignoring the written word.

Yes.

It's faith.

A living faith that obeys what is heard.

The righteousness that Abraham walked in 430 years before the law of Moses.

The faith that Enoch walked in without any written word.

The faith that Noah walked in without any written word.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

A living faith that obeyed.

The action of obedience to what is heard, is the evidence of a living faith.

All of these who walked in faith had a relationship with the Lord.

He spoke to them and they obeyed.

The was no written scriptures involved.

Jesus said it this way -

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39

The scriptures instruct us in the ways of righteousness, and are written examples of those who walked with God in relationship which resulting in righteousness because of obedience.

However, you asked me to give you examples of what constitutes righteousness outside of God's written word.

So I gave you examples of those who walked in the righteousness of faith before there was a written word.

OBEDIENCE is the standard of righteousness.

Take obedience out of the equation and there is no righteousness.

Saul of Tarsus knew more scripture than anyone, and was killing God's people as a result.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

It's really impossible not to, since the standard of righteousness is revealed to us through the written word.

The so called Standard of Righteousness is a gift. Your faith in that Gift determines what you get from God. So your faith in that gift means live or die at times, it also determines what you ask God for.

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

It's obedience that proves your faith. Are you in the place God told you to be, are you doing now what your suppose to be doing?

God can't even talk to some because they would never sell their new house and go where he would want them to go. I know a man that did this and it cost him everything.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

That is right, it's our obedience that determines our standing with God (Righteousness). If we don't do what God said do, then it is a powerless life and prayers don't get answered.

Righteousness is there and free if you operate it.



Mike.

 

[TOG]

Do you have some definition of what constitutes righteousness outside of God's written word? If so, would you please share it with us? I'm sure there are people here who would love to hear how they can call themselves righteous while totally ignoring the written word.

Yes.

It's faith.

A living faith that obeys what is heard.

The righteousness that Abraham walked in 430 years before the law of Moses.

The faith that Enoch walked in without any written word.

The faith that Noah walked in without any written word.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

A living faith that obeyed.

The action of obedience to what is heard, is the evidence of a living faith.

All of these who walked in faith had a relationship with the Lord.

He spoke to them and they obeyed.

The was no written scriptures involved.

Jesus said it this way -

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39

The scriptures instruct us in the ways of righteousness, and are written examples of those who walked with God in relationship which resulting in righteousness because of obedience.

However, you asked me to give you examples of what constitutes righteousness outside of God's written word.

So I gave you examples of those who walked in the righteousness of faith before there was a written word.

OBEDIENCE is the standard of righteousness.

Take obedience out of the equation and there is no righteousness.

Saul of Tarsus knew more scripture than anyone, and was killing God's people as a result.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


JLB

You didn't answer my question. I asked for a "definition of what constitutes righteousness outside of God's written word" and you gave me examples from God's written word of people who were righteous. Maybe you misunderstood me, so let me clarify what I meant.

To be righteous means to do that which is right. But how do we know what is right? People disagree on that subject. Hindus believe that eating meat is wrong and chanting is right. Jews believe eating pork is wrong and keeping the Sabbath is right. Muslims believe that Christian baptism is wrong and celebrating Ramadan is right. How do we know who's right. It can't be faith that defines righteousness. Hindus, Jews and Muslims all have faith. They all believe that they are doing what's right. How can we know for sure what is right and what is wrong? I maintain that we can look to God's written word - the Bible - and read there what He says is right and wrong in the books of Moses. If you do not look to the written word, where do you find your definition of right and wrong?

To make it even simpler, let's narrow it down to one specific item. Many people today believe that it is ok for a couple to live together and have sex without being married. The church on the other hand has always said that such a lifestyle is sinful. How can we know whether sex outside of marriage is wrong or not? How can we know whether living together without being married is consistent with living a righteous life? Remember, you yourself have said that we do not need to look to written rules to define righteousness. Can you, without referring to either God's written word or any other written rules of conduct, show a definition of righteousness that can tell us whether living together without being married is wrong or not?

 

[JLB]

How can we know whether sex outside of marriage is wrong or not?

The Spirit of Jesus Christ within a person who may live in a country where bibles are few and far between, or even non existent leads and guides a person that may not even be able to read, into all truth.

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

The standard of righteousness is obedience.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

How can we know whether sex outside of marriage is wrong or not?

Here I go sticking my neck but oh well.

First let me make it VERY clear I am NOT condoning couple living together without legal marriage.

When Isaac married Rebecca, there was no per legal contract or ceremony. They had never seen each other before, Isaac simply took Rebecca into his dead mother's tent. But what there was, was a commitment to that union.

One has the Holy Spirit indwelling them and they do have the laws written on their hearts and minds, God did that.

So if one has an intimate relationship with someone they are not committed to, they will know it is wrong. Why would they being doing that? Would it be as an act of love or are they simply using the other person to appease their own desires?
If a woman lives with a man for his money, is that wrong? She is using him to appease her own desires?
Would we want someone to use us to appease their own desires?

So if one is unsure of right and wrong I think they have a way to know, if they are honest about their motives.

 

[reba]

That first Reba was bought...it was a legality