Turn the other cheek ?

[follower of Christ]

There's no way a sane person would ever do that. If so, they should be thrown under the jail.

Frankly the law needs to prosecute the parent who had opportunity to protect their child to the same extent they do the attacker.
Worse even because this isnt just some stranger but their own flesh and blood.

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[follower of Christ]

There used to be a video on youtube from a hospital security camera where this young male (color is irrelevant here) walked up behind this old homeless woman pushing a grocery cart and just started punching her in the head and face.

Its absolutely astounding hearing ignorant comments from some about 'non lethal' self defense in a case like this. The body gets FAR too incapable of even using 'non lethal' force (ie HtH combat, sharp sticks, etc) and a gun is the ONLY thing that makes these brutes think twice.
They arent afraid of chemicals, sharp sticks, judo or harsh language....but put a 44 magnum in their face and they might just walk away.

Pacifists will be pacifists UNTIL it happens to them personally or to THEIR kids...then their tune WILL change ;)

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follower of Christ,

I wouldn't give them a week in the ghetto around the type of people many of us here have to deal with on a daily basis! :gah

It cracks me up when people from suburban churches come into the inner city to feed the bums on the streets of downtown Cleveland. Even the bums know to stay away from the ghetto! s Let these so called suburban "missionaries" go inot hte ghetto and live there in a neighborhood where you can't walk the street to the corner store at night because the likelihood of getting robbed is 9 out of 10 times, and the likelihood of getting shot by a stray bullet from some crazy gang member is a 50/50 percent chance! :bigfrown
And many of those neighborhood you can't even walk the street during the daytime! let alone at night! Druggies and hookers are mainly the ones on the street and all the people who are halfway decent are scared to death in their homes in hope of not being the next one to be robbed or accosted by these thugs that are on the streets!

It just makes me totally astounded that passivists just don't get it! They are all talk and no EXPERIENCE with dealing with thugs in the ghetto! Poor Christian people who live in the ghetto cry daily because their sons got mixed up with these gang members and are involved in drug dealing because the "money" from dealing drugs is the only means they can find to make money. The cause and effect of ghetto behavior is so horrible and really a horrible situation to overcome. And passivists think that coming to the outskirts of the ghettos where the bums are to feed them sandwiches is going to make a difference? The bums don't even go deep into the ghetto because they know they won't last for even one night without getting beat up just for the fun of it by these gang members and/or druggies who are out to find their next "vulnerable" easy target.

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[follower of Christ]

Then please tell us HOW you would defend your family against multiple invaders with weapons intent on doing harm.

Didnt ya know, G, that harsh language and a sharp stick will ALWAYS run the BG's off....even if they have guns and knives ? ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

come live in my necks of the woods then in the last five yrs, one attempted murder and one murder that the victim was chopped up and driven to the perps house in TN.

You wear seatbelts despite the low possibility of an accident. You seem to think that we cant wait to kill. We are just saying should the oppurtunity arise this is most likely would be our response. WE may get shot or killed as the intruder may be armed and be more then one of them.

I have my truck broken into at least twice in the past two yrs. I did make it a litte easy for them to do it as i was just away from my truck for a minute in one instance and another my toolbox was insecure. My neighborhood is one of the worst in the county. I see drug dealers on a daily basis sitting at home and waiting for the right person to buy. So that scenerio is most likely for me.

Exactly Jas.

I dont carry because I believe Im going to be attacked. I carry because there is a possibility of attack...just like I lock my doors, not because someone is going to come in my home, but because even tho the odds are against it, it MAY happen.
I wear a seltbelt, not because I AM going to get into an accident, but because there is always a possibility I'll hit some ice on the highway or some drunk will be out on the road. I put my grandson in a carseat, not to keep him from what I KNOW will happen, but from what MAY happen.

Having the ABILITY to defend oneself is a DETERRENT against crime.
IF the BG's know I only have a foul mouth and a fist to shake at them, they arent afraid to attack me.
If they know Im allowed to have a weapon strong enough to put them in a 6 foot hole, they typically think twice and move on to someone less likely to be able to protect themselves.

Self defense is about deterrence, not harming another human being.
The USA doesnt have nuclear missles so we can destroy other countries...we have them to keep things in check with lunatic leaders around the world who know we can obliterate them with the push of a button.
Good men having the power to stabilize any situation is what keeps this world from being overrun by the Osama's out there.

 

[Drew]

.Stick Drew and Free in the middle of a hard core ghetto and let them see how well their professed passifist methods work.

This hypothetical about how we would "need a gun" to survive in these neighbourhoods misses the point.

First, the hypothetical ignores the very real possibility that the fact of gun freedom could be a source of the risk to the "innocent" as well as a possible solution.

Second, it conveniently ignores the challenge of explaining how "gunning down" your fellow man is obedient to the command to love our enemies.

Third, it focuses too narrowly on how to deal with an unsafe world when the proper focus should be on how to make the world more safe in the first place.

And then we have the passivists who think that to do nothing physically to defend oneself but to only use words, is the answer? :crazy I'll tell ya what!

Relic, please read the posts more carefully. For my part, I have never stated that it is not appropriate to defend oneself physically.

And most of the corner stores and gas stations around the area are owned and operated by Muslims who do not hesitate on second to pull a gun or a macheti [sp] on someone who walks into their store and looks like they might be a threat.

A very unfortunate and highly inappropriate generalization - another example of the false "us vs them" tribalism that we see quite often in this forum.

.....these WILD Animals who have not one bit of civility in them.

More inflammatory and unhelpful demonization.

Drew you don't know how lucky you are to never have had any physical u are to never have had any physical confrontation in your life!

"Luck" has little to do with it. The real reason is that, for some reason, "we" have been able to create a safe environment where threats are rare. Instead of arming yourslef to the teeth - although I can understand the motivation to do so - it would be better to work on the more fundamental problems behind why your environment is so dnagerous.

 

[Drew]

[quote="Lewis W":366i3le6]Drew suppose you can't avoid deadly force, a dude has broken into your home, and is about to kill your wife and children, then what Drew ? You just stand there, or use that gun under the sofa, if you can get to it ? Or if you heard him break in, and you got your gun out of the night table, are you going to let him hurt your family Drew ?

It really doesnt matter what some claim, the facts are that we are ALL are given a self preservation instinct by the Creator, and an instinct to protect our mates and offspring.
Ive seen more than one pacifist make claims in my life....and seen what happens when they ARE actually pushed to defending themselves or their families.

Making claims about how we'd react to violence is fairly meaningless when its never actually happened.
.[/quote:366i3le6]
It is difficult to discuss this issue when I am repeatedly misrepresented. I have, of course, never adopted a "full pacifist response" to violent confrontations. I have argued for a response that reduces the risk of grievous or mortal injury to the "bad guy" to near zero - you know, that inconvenient and decidedly "non-instinctual" command to love our enemies.

And even apart from the Biblical imperative, there exists the compelling argument that the freedom to let me gun down my enemy is the very same freedom that empowers him to be a threatening force in the first place.

 

[Relic]

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Drew, I'm not inflaming or generalizing anything. You are very welcome to come into my enighborhood and the surrounding areas that have been robbed and see for yourself that if you make the wrong move in their gas station or store, act as if you are going to rob them... see if you don't get a gun pointed right back at you or a machetti drawn our from under the counter. It's obvious Drew that you have lived a very sheltered life for you to come and tell us who live in the ghetto or have lived in the ghetto that we are exaggeratting or making generalizations. YOU don't know what YOU are talking about Drew.


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[Drew]

.YOU don't know what YOU are talking about Drew.

Well I know that your post implied that Muslims are more inclined to violence than other religious groups. I suggest that you have no data to substantiate such a claim. And even if it turns out to be correct, it is a divisive statement that only serves to harden the distrust between groups.

Yes, I apparently live in a safer environment. But the fact that I live in such an environment proves that one can live safely without arming yourself. So while I certainly understand your desire for self-defence, I think you need to think about other, more fundamental, solutions to the problem of the violent environment in which you live.

 

[Relic]

.YOU don't know what YOU are talking about Drew.

Well I know that your post implied that Muslims are more inclined to violence than other religious groups. I suggest that you have no data to substantiate such a claim. And if it turns out to be correct, it is a divisive statement that only serves to harden the distrust between groups.

Wow! Now you are calling me a liar in regard to what's happened in and around my neighborhood. :crazy Nothing but assumptions on your part I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN MY OWN TOWN, DREW. And Just because it's mainly Muslims around here who own corner stores and gas stations doesn't mean I'm LABELING THEM AS being what YOU are accusing me of. You have no more better thing to do than to accuse people of being racist or putting one group into some little box that you are accussing them of doing! Wow.

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[Drew]

Wow! Now you are calling me a liar in regard to what's happened in and around my neighborhood. :crazy

What an absurd conclusion on yout part. I have merely suggested the likelihood that you will not be able to substantiate your claim. That is decidedly not equivalent to me calling you a liar.

 

[Drew]

As for the foundation of Jesus' teachings, Jesus ALSO said to give to EVERY man who asks of us. No conditions or limitations are given by Christ, just blanket instruction to GIVE.
If we take that statement 'as is' without ANY context allowed then this means I can demand any amount of money or property from ANY TRUE christian on this site and they are OBLIGATED to give me what I demand without question or hesitation or thought.

This is a good point - we are obviously not intended to give anything whatsoever to someone who asks. We can clearly see situations where taking this literally would be unloving to self, family, and even the asker.

But we need to remember the primacy of love - Jesus summarized the law with statements about loving God and loving neighbour. So I suggest that there is every reason to think that "love", unlike "giving out stuff" is foundational and exceptionless. And I cannot see how to reconcile killing a man the imperative to love him.

 

[Relic]

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Drew, don't even reply to my postings anymore anywhere in this web site. It's obvious you and I just don't see eye to eye, EVER. And truly you make accusastions telling me my post implied this or that about Muslims in general when it did no such thing. Just because I wrote that then ones who are ready to pull a gun or a machetti don't get robbed anymore. You come back and make these accusations that my post implied something that it didn't!
Just don't reply to my postings anymore Drew because they always end up with you accusing me of things that are not so.

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[Lewis]

Read this, about this poor woman, they broke a cast iron, frying pan in half on her now you know that is some force, this was a elderly woman, and I am very angry about it, she lived in my section of Philly which is the Germantown section.


Police seek leads in woman's bludgeoning death

By REGINA MEDINA
Philadelphia Daily News

medinar@phillynews.com 215-854-5985
Whoever killed Ellen A. Walton with a metal frying pan was waiting for her, lurking outside her Germantown home.

The 68-year-old grandmother parked her Toyota SUV in her rear driveway, as she always did, and when she turned her key to enter the back door, the unknown person or people pushed her inside, Homicide Unit Capt. James Clark said yesterday at a news conference.

The assailants "savagely beat" Walton's head with the frying pan inside her home on Magnolia Street near Washington Lane, Clark said.

The frying pan was found near her body and was "actually broken in half," Clark said. "We believe that is going to be the murder weapon."

Walton, who was retired but whose previous occupation is unknown, was pronounced dead shortly after police found her about 1 a.m. Monday, Clark said.

Investigators are trying to determine when the events occurred and are reviewing Walton's phone records and bank statements and interviewing her neighbors, Clark said.

The "heinous crime" could have taken place earlier this weekend or "she could have been there for a week," he said.

Homicide detectives are also looking at video surveillance from a nearby Acme supermarket where Walton was possibly seen driving around on Sunday, law-enforcement sources said yesterday.

The posse of killer-thieves then ransacked Walton's home of 16 years and stole two to three TV sets, possibly some jewelry and her 2005 gray Toyota Rav 4, the captain said.

A tow-truck driver later found the SUV abandoned on Yerkes Street near Crittenden with two flat tires, and that discovery eventually led police to find Walton's body in her basement, law-enforcement sources said.

Police had received reports of the same car driving erratically in the area and believe that's how the car ended up with two flats, Clark said.

Sometime early Monday, the tow truck driver knocked on Walton's door, prompting a neighbor to call 9-1-1 believing a robbery was under way. Police arrived and soon realized no robbery was taking place. They entered through the back door and found Walton.

Clark is asking the public's help in finding the killer or killers. Anyone with information about the case is asked to call the police Homicide Unit at 215-686-3334.

Here is my point, this woman was bothering nobody, and some idiot, did this to her and broke a frying pan over her head. Now I wish that this elderly woman had a gun or something to kill this guy. I am not God, but this fool deserves death. I went to jail for 3 or 4 days one time because I beat a guy with a baseball bat for trying to rape my then at that time girlfriend, about 20 something years ago.

 

[Drew]

.Just don't reply to my postings anymore Drew because they always end up with you accusing me of things that are not so.

Sorry, you do not get immunity from challenge.

 

[Relic]

.Just don't reply to my postings anymore Drew because they always end up with you accusing me of things that are not so.

Sorry, you do not get immunity from challenge.

You don't present challenge, you present nothing but accusing others of overgeneralizations, demonizing, and all sorts of accusations. And then you dare make accusations against me of being prejudice and labeling of ethnic groups when I never even did such a thing. Bug off Drew, you don't have the slightest notion of what goes on in the ghetto or inner city. And you dare come here telling people that you know what you are talking about and telling us that we need to learn how to deal without carrying a weapon.

I wholeheartedly agree with 'follower of Christ', 'GojuBrian' and 'Lewis' when it comes to dealing with HARD CORE THUGS. I do NOT agree with you, Drew and your cheap shots aren't going to make you look any better.


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[Drew]

I often wonder about those who think the uber-pacifist way. No resistance, no defense of loved ones etc.... What do their wife and kids think about that? Wouldn't you hate to be a young girl in that house? :crazy

"Well, if a goblin breaks in here my daddy is just going to let them have their way with me."

The good thing is that, contrary to their professions and beliefs, even these 'uber-pacifists' are going to grow a spine if and when the time comes and defend their families.
It doesnt matter what they claim as they havent yet been put to the test in the matter.
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The irony of your "grow a spine" challenge is that the real challenge of Christian "spine" is that, of course, it takes far more courage to obey Jesus' challenging imperative to not repay evil with evil than it does to pull a trigger on a gun.

 

[follower of Christ]

.
YOU don't know what YOU are talking about Drew.


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Nuff said.

When one lives in a plastic bubble its hard to take them seriously when they claim that WE shouldnt worry about the quality of air WE have to breathe....

 

[follower of Christ]

Wow! Now you are calling me a liar in regard to what's happened in and around my neighborhood. :crazy Nothing but assumptions on your part I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN MY OWN TOWN, DREW. And Just because it's mainly Muslims around here who own corner stores and gas stations doesn't mean I'm LABELING THEM AS being what YOU are accusing me of. You have no more better thing to do than to accuse people of being racist or putting one group into some little box that you are accussing them of doing! Wow.

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From the experience, as shown in the links in my signature, I wouldnt expect those of this agenda to actually accept the facts.
At least one major detail was proven time and again and those of these pacifist agendas apparently couldnt accept the facts in the matter.
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[follower of Christ]

You don't present challenge, you present nothing but accusing others of overgeneralizations, demonizing, and all sorts of accusations.

Not to mention a complete rejection of facts in an ongoing fashion as seen in the links in my sig.

And then you dare make accusations against me of being prejudice and labeling of ethnic groups when I never even did such a thing.

I dont like Obama. Not because of anything other than his views on a lot of things.
But if I say something Im called a racist because the man is black.
Its just one way of arguing ones case, using the race card, when one has no actual argument at all.
Frankly you should do what Ive done and put certain members here on ignore.

I wholeheartedly agree with 'follower of Christ', 'GojuBrian' and 'Lewis' when it comes to dealing with HARD CORE THUGS. I do NOT agree with you, Drew and your cheap shots aren't going to make you look any better.
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And yet for some reason he has been permitted to continue doing it...and then reports us when we REACT to his inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[follower of Christ]

The irony of your "grow a spine" challenge is that the real challenge of Christian "spine" is that, of course, it takes far more courage to obey Jesus' challenging imperative to not repay evil with evil than it does to pull a trigger on a gun.

Sorry chap...where again did Jesus SAY 'you cant defend yourself or your children' ?
When you can produce that verse, give me a ring....till then youre wasting your breath and my time.

And no, I dont care.