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Turn the other cheek ?

Wait a minute Drew, hear me out. Here is a dude getting ready to give you a beat down with a bat, and you a going to stand up there and let him do it ,is this what you are telling me ?
 
Drew if i slapped you like that couple times a bruise would surely follow and or swelling of the face. The back hand is a powerful technique when it is trained and practiced right.Some of the martial arts have that as a diversion to set thing up albiet with a closed fist instead of the open handed strike with the knuckles hitting first.
 
jasoncran said:
Understood. I was addressing that one. If some one pushes me and decides to throw a punch i can choose just avoid it and walk away or use some of my mma training and choke him(this doesnt cause permanent damage) and stop the threat and walk away. Some of the mma chokes are used by cops to subdue subjects with nonlethal force. I was shown of some of this recently by a full time cop and mma practictioner.
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I have no objection at all to the use of certain types of "non-lethal force" in the context of a self-defence situation. My issue is with the use of force that is reasonably likely to kill or grievoulsy wound.

Obviously, the obedient Christian will seek a solution with no violence or force. But there are times when some kinds of "force" may be legitimate. But most of these debates are about the use of "deadly force", not non-lethal approaches.
 
Lewis W said:
Wait a minute Drew, hear me out. Here is a dude getting ready to give you a beat down with a bat, and you a going to stand up there and let him do it ,is this what you are telling me ?
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All I am saying is that I believe that Jesus would want me to avoid deadly force, even in self-defence.

Obviously, if the "run away" option is availabe, that is the path to take. But as I have just posted, I do not repudiate some kinds of "force" in self-defence, just not deadly or exceedingly violent force.

And, yes, this might cost me my life. But, if I am to follow Jesus, that is a road I must be prepared to take. Would I have the courage of my convictions if faced with such a situation? I do not know, but I am quite confident that "trying to kill" in self-defence is not a legitimate option for the Christian, although it would take great courage to be willing to live up to that standard.
 
some time in order to stop some one on drugs deadly force is neccesary. case in point

a fellow mp at ft. meade maryland pulled over a car the persons runs into the woods the mp follows and tackles the guy the resists and is tazed several times. The suspects breaks the prongs and goes for the mp weapon, rather than shoot the guy the mp uses the prt 24 and hits the suspect in the head several times, no effect. The mp then has to use the rear naked choke(with the prt 24) to stop the suspect. The suspect goes in to a coma at the hospital, upon the the trial. The suspect is found guilty of several felonies and attempted batteries and attempted murder of the mp. The mp is also investigated the judge at the trial of the suspect ask the mp why didnt you just shoot him. His response not sure, The mp is cleared of all use of execesive force.

The suspect had several areas of brain swelling and been arristed and convicted of 15 times of drug use. He (the mp) would have better off shooting him as he(the suspect) may have took his weapon and killed him.
 
jasoncran said:
some time in order to stop some one on drugs deadly force is neccesary. case in point
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I do not see a Biblical case for deadly force in any context.
 
Drew suppose you can't avoid deadly force, a dude has broken into your home, and is about to kill your wife and children, then what Drew ? You just stand there, or use that gun under the sofa, if you can get to it ? Or if you heard him break in, and you got your gun out of the night table, are you going to let him hurt your family Drew ?
 
then be sure you dont call the cops then at all. As they will have to commit that sin on your behalf. Think about will you tell that cop you saved your life then he just killed a person and needs to repent. Or will you be so grateful that you just want to leave.

If god ordained the goverment and we are to be in it and are as you say not have seperate church and state. Tell me drew how shall the RCMP deal with that above situation if it was an atheist on drugs?

You believe that Jesus is the throne and that we believers should set up his kingdom, what of the lost in that. Are they going to do this when we take the world :puppydogeyes, and not sin and or commit crimes? If jesus came now there would be no sin or sinners.If he did it all in 70 ad then the sin is still allowed and murder and so on so forth must be contained.

I want to know how in your opinion of a theocracy how shall a christian deal with that.I asked you this before and no response.
 
Lewis W said:
Drew suppose you can't avoid deadly force, a dude has broken into your home, and is about to kill your wife and children, then what Drew ? You just stand there, or use that gun under the sofa, if you can get to it ? Or if you heard him break in, and you got your gun out of the night table, are you going to let him hurt your family Drew ?
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Well, I would never choose to own a gun, so that option will not be available to me.

I am not sure what I would do, but what I would do is besides the point. Jesus' command to love our enemies simply cannot be reconciled with the use of deadly force.

But I certainly would resist, but with no gun, I am not sure what "deadly force" options I would have anyway.
 
Drew, the irony of this is I hate violence. I hate the fact that i may to go to haiti and or somewhere and take a life. I dont watch gory movies. When I enlisted in the army friends nah Jason your too soft and too nonviolent you wont make it. Friends of mine that are on fb that knew me as a kid like that still cant believe that I served and continue to serve my country.

my old sensei told his students the more you learn to fight and get better at it the more you want to avoid as the guy on the street may be better then you.
 
Drew said:
Lewis W said:
Drew suppose you can't avoid deadly force, a dude has broken into your home, and is about to kill your wife and children, then what Drew ? You just stand there, or use that gun under the sofa, if you can get to it ? Or if you heard him break in, and you got your gun out of the night table, are you going to let him hurt your family Drew ?
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Well, I would never choose to own a gun, so that option will not be available to me.

I am not sure what I would do, but what I would do is besides the point. Jesus' command to love our enemies simply cannot be reconciled with the use of deadly force.

But I certainly would resist, but with no gun, I am not sure what "deadly force" options I would have anyway.
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No Drew it is not besides the point, do you think that God would want you to let somebody beat and rape your wife and kids ?
 
Lewis,

Thanks for the post. I agree with what the man has spoken here and believe it to be the truth. :thumb

When we are forced to defend ourselves it's the attackers fault, not our own. I am a peacekeeper. I'll do what it takes and take the proper steps to maintain that peace.
 
When I asked the question about giving the other cheek one person answered in a joky way, he told me one story:

One boy asked his grandfather what to do if someone striked you on the right jaw or cheek? The answer of the grandfather was – to give the other one.
“But what if the offender strikes on the other cheek too†asked the boy
“Run away, son†replied grandfather

Some kind of joke, but sometimes there is truth in the joke. :)

If to speak seriously my personal understanding of this verse is not to respond to your offender in a way as he/she acts toward you. As Christians we should try to keep peace with everyone, if it is possible from our side.

1 Peter 3: 9-13
Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary,(P) bless, for(Q) to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. 10For

(R) "Whoever desires to love life
and see good days,
let him keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from speaking deceit;
11let him turn away from evil and do good;
let him seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their prayer.
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
13Now(S) who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?

Only God and Holy Spirit in us can help us to behave in this way, as we can nothing without Him. :amen
 
Lewis W said:
Drew said:
[quote="Lewis W":1xm2ujgf]Drew suppose you can't avoid deadly force, a dude has broken into your home, and is about to kill your wife and children, then what Drew ? You just stand there, or use that gun under the sofa, if you can get to it ? Or if you heard him break in, and you got your gun out of the night table, are you going to let him hurt your family Drew ?
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Well, I would never choose to own a gun, so that option will not be available to me.

I am not sure what I would do, but what I would do is besides the point. Jesus' command to love our enemies simply cannot be reconciled with the use of deadly force.

But I certainly would resist, but with no gun, I am not sure what "deadly force" options I would have anyway.
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No Drew it is not besides the point, do you think that God would want you to let somebody beat and rape your wife and kids ? [/quote:1xm2ujgf]
As I said in my post, I would resist, just not with a gun that I would not have in first place.

And I suggest that, without a gun, fists are probably as good or better than running to the kitchen to try to get a knife.

You seem to want to frame this as a situation where the only effective resistance is deadly force. I suggest that this is only true if there is a gun.

And for a wide range of reasons, I would never own a gun in the first place.

And let's ask ourselves: Do those of us who live in gun-free societies face a greater risk of having iur family attacked than those who have the guns? I suggest that the answer to this is probably "no".

I think there are other problems with this "home invasion" scenario.
 
Drew, how many fights have you been in. I know of a decent mma fighter that packs a gun. He knows that someone is bigger and badder and better then him.

One swing of the butchers knife will cut through the forearm.If the person knows how to use it. Even if they dont that arm will be useless.
 
I guess that I like the OP because it gives a little historical frame of reference to the scripture. I still it calls for us to use restrain but to stand tall, not to cower as some may take it too far IMO. I think we have to look at all of scripture and know that we are to be peacemakers, yet we are to also be shrewd and also to use wisdom. I really think it is a little bit situational.

I know for myself, my old man would have much too quickly "thrown off the gloves" to use a hockey term. I am wiser now and know that there is wisdom in using restraint and there are also opportunities to show God's grace in the midst of a confrontation.
 
jasoncran said:
Drew, how many fights have you been in. I know of a decent mma fighter that packs a gun. He knows that someone is bigger and badder and better then him.

One swing of the butchers knife will cut through the forearm.If the person knows how to use it. Even if they dont that arm will be useless.
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That you would even ask this question suggest that you move in entirely different circles than me. I am 51 years old and would say that I have never, in my entire life, been involved in any kind of serious physical altercation.

Now that does not make me a better person than anyone else - I am fortunate to live in a society that is relatively free of violence.

But the fact that I, and others, are fortunate to live in such societies shows that the real question is not: "How will Drew defend his family if they are attacked?", but rather "How can we change the world that jason (and others) live in so that they will not be placed in such situations in the first place?"

There is a big problem with the "what will you do if your wife is attacked if you don't use a gun?" scenario - the very question concedes something that Christians should not concede - that we use the very tools of evil to defeat evil. And, again, the gun that is there to defend against the home invader is also there to be abused in the 99.9999 % of the time that there is no home invader.
 
I think a strong case can be made that one sub-theme of Jesus' ministry was to challenge the nation of Israel to abandon their headlong rush to military revolt against their Roman oppressors and to choose a different path. If such a case can be made, it strongly suggests that violence is not the solution to many situations to which our present culture would otherwise impel us to respond with force.
 
i have said that avoidance is the best policy, but sometimes you cant run. I used let be people bowl over me. I no longer do that, if its worth standing up for what is right i do. Other times I let the person be abusive and walk away.

I had a sergeant that harresed me daily on my faith. We were in a truck together on a two week training event. One day i was about to hit him and I walked away. Another NCO seen that as he knows my temper and told him that i could have punched him.

That is one thing,my life on the line is another. Sometimes escapes isnt possibe. Why drew do you assume that all legal american gun owners want to kill so easily.They dont. That sergeant apologized that day as that senior NCO chewed his but over that, and we were freinds and still are since then.

i will walk away from a fight if possible and someone insulting me here or in person. Do i always do that, no.
But in my house if someone breaks down the front door and goes in the first door to the right theres is no escape if i dont get up and out quickly enough as the hallway will be blocked and the next exit is down the hallway and through the kitchen or the garage door. If the guy has a knife or axe or something that he used to break the door. He has the upper hand vs me without a weapon. I HAVE done martial arts most of my life and i aint no bruce lee ,chuck norris, gracie, and steven segeal. I may disarm that person or not, a gun will stop them.
 
can we avoid the gun debate as we know where that will go. Obviously you dont beieve in christians in the RCMP and or Law enforcenment and or military.

Drew, i have only done full contact (kickboxing) training and now bjj and the others martial arts. I have only used those things three times. With no one getting hurt. I have as a teen humbled but that brings the total to 5 fights. I train for the day that it might happen. Bjj is the closes thing i get to a street fight, yet i have walked out with a sore neck,back, torn thoraxic wall, and sore arms and bruises. The thoraxic wall was by accident as the person rolling to this day felt bad for hurting me.The other stuff is just part of learning the art.

The younguns have egos and tend to get mad at tapping and also like to prove themselves, but with a little humilation by the senior students and or coach they either leave and or accept that some are better then them.
When I go to the other gym I dont try to be big chested but they will know what i'm made up of.If i find that the person i train with a more novice then me then i teach them, as so do the other fighters. Many mma gyms dont do that and beat up on the newbies. That is why i train here. I have no ego to prove to those that are in the gym as i only come and train for fun. That is my nature. But try to kill me or harm my wife and its on.
 
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