Turn the other cheek ?

[GojuBrian]

please leave guns out of this. For the sake of clearer debate let's assume guns don't even exist.

So, you would defend yourself against a couple or three grown men armed with knives and clubs with your hands?

OK, let's assume guns don't exist. Yes, I would use my bare hand as I suspect the intruders would not give me "a couple of minutes" to gather up a knife or a baseball bat. And since I do not plan on carrying a baseball bat with me everywhere I go, I am not sure what other option there would be in the absence of guns.

Lots of other options. Lock your doors, alarms, dogs, other forms of self defense such as OC spray, tasers, pots and pans,etc....preparedness.

Or, we could just make drugs and murder illegal and pretend we live in a world where evil doesn't exist and criminals obey laws. :crazy

 

[jasoncran]

very well i will avoid the gun debate. Drew you live in canada, unfortunalety we have a more violent society. I wish it werent so, but that cant be changed by disarming. People will evil intentions find a means to do so.

Should we make our drinking laws lower as the germans do, they can drink at the age 14. That is something i dont advice but i guess they dont have a problem with alcohol like we do.

The german polizie are very brutal as they will shot you if you are running from the cops and some yells thief and you refuse to stop. They also are very brutal in their non lethal tactics as the baton is spring loaded. That wont fly in the u.s, though at times i wish it would.

What works in Canada may not work in the U.S. and vice versa. I could go on about the turn signal and car light thing that Canadian cars have but i wont.

 

[jasoncran]

why not train the martial arts, judo,aikido and japenses juitsitsu and bjj all teach one to take a fall. slips and falls are the #1 reason for hip and shoulder replacement, my wife fell and that's how she will need to have her shoulder replaced.

Then theres the confration avoidance that they all teach, instead of one rushing in fighting they teach one to get out of the area first if possible, by either talking away out of it, avoid the scenerio all together. or if need be the use of joint lock and chokes to subdue the attack. I was taught never to duke it out on the street, get the person of off you and stop the attack and bail out. Dont play the hero.


Finally criminal are like sharks they look for easy targets. Most martial arts teach you to be confident and walk with that confidence so that you dont present your self as an easy target. Does that mean cockiness, no. The martial arts also teach one to be aware of ones surroundings.Then there's getting in shape.

 

[Free]

That you would even ask this question suggest that you move in entirely different circles than me. I am 51 years old and would say that I have never, in my entire life, been involved in any kind of serious physical altercation.

Neither have I.

But the fact that I, and others, are fortunate to live in such societies shows that the real question is not: "How will Drew defend his family if they are attacked?", but rather "How can we change the world that jason (and others) live in so that they will not be placed in such situations in the first place?"

I couldn't agree more. This really gets to the heart of the Christian response. Do we take up arms and live in fear like many in worldly society, or do we strive to bring about God's justice in the world and help redeem it?

There is a big problem with the "what will you do if your wife is attacked if you don't use a gun?" scenario - the very question concedes something that Christians should not concede - that we use the very tools of evil to defeat evil. And, again, the gun that is there to defend against the home invader is also there to be abused in the 99.9999 % of the time that there is no home invader.

It would be interesting to know just how many times someone who, in the heat of an argument, grabbed a gun and shot the other person out of anger and frustration; someone who wouldn't have ever been considered a criminal in the slightest. It is the evil that runs in us that is troublesome, not just the evil that is "out there."

 

[GojuBrian]

Well, since you guys clearly want this to go into another gun debate.................. I'm out of it.

 

[jasoncran]

i have went of out my way to avoid that pit fall. sheesh.

 

[Free]

No one has turned this into a gun debate. :gah

 

[GojuBrian]

It would be interesting to know just how many times someone who, in the heat of an argument, grabbed a gun and shot the other person out of anger and frustration; someone who wouldn't have ever been considered a criminal in the slightest. It is the evil that runs in us that is troublesome, not just the evil that is "out there."

thus.......

 

[Drew]

Lots of other options. Lock your doors, alarms, dogs, other forms of self defense such as OC spray, tasers, pots and pans,etc....preparedness.

I actually have no objection at all to any of these and think that they are all good ideas.

 

[Drew]

I wish it werent so, but that cant be changed by disarming. People will evil intentions find a means to do so.

You cannot simply assume this. It is one of things people say without questioning as if it were self-evidently true. And yet, there is every reason to be at least open to the possibility that if you take away "easy" means, there may well be less violence. In fact, there are some studies which show that reducing means does reduce violent incidents.

 

[Drew]

Then theres the confration avoidance that they all teach, instead of one rushing in fighting they teach one to get out of the area first if possible, by either talking away out of it, avoid the scenerio all together. or if need be the use of joint lock and chokes to subdue the attack. I was taught never to duke it out on the street, get the person of off you and stop the attack and bail out. Dont play the hero.

This all seems like good advice. But, we should not only learn to defend ourselves in such non-lethal ways, we should do what we can to make our society more peaceful and less violent.

To show that I am also able to criticise my own "culture", I will go on record as suggesting that Canadian Christians should speak out against the widespread acceptance of violence in ice hockey - a real, but unfortunate element of our culture. When kids see their heros pounding each other with fists on the ice, this sends a very bad message as to how to resolve conflicts.

 

[Relic]

.

Stick Drew and Free in the middle of a hard core ghetto and let them see how well their professed passifist methods work. I live in a neighborhood where it isn't even safe to walk down to the corner store for a gallon of milk, at night. There are so many robberies going on right now because of all the job losses that it isn't even safe in the suburbs around here!
People getting robbed in parking lots while walking to their car. And then we have the passivists who think that to do nothing physically to defend oneself but to only use words, is the answer? :crazy I'll tell ya what! The stores around here in which the owner used a gun to save himself from the attacks of the robbers are not robbed anymore! the theives stay away from their store now! And most of the corner stores and gas stations around the area are owned and operated by Muslims who do not hesitate on second to pull a gun or a macheti [sp] on someone who walks into their store and looks like they might be a threat. The theives around here have gotten so emboldened that they are now driving their vans or truck right through storefront windows (after hours) to grab cash registers and ATM machines. The only way to stop these idiots is to STOP ENABLEING THEM. Cameras are all over this town and the suburbs it appears that not even the cameras are stopping these WILD Animals who have not one bit of civility in them. Yeah place Drew and Free in the middle of the ghetto as a clerk in one of those storefronts! Then we'll shall see if they do or don't start to believe in packing a weapon then! It's usually the folks who've never had any physical offense upon themselves are the ones who advocate passivist means of defense. :gah These people just don't get it. Drew you don't know how lucky you are to never have had any physical confrontation in your life! My mother was robbed three times when she was living in the innner city when she got off the bus upon arrived at home from her long day at work. We didn't find out about the last two robberies until AFTER we got her out of that horrible neighborhood. And by the way that horrible neighborhood was only 10 blocks away from the very neighborhood that that serial killer who killed over 11 women is from that was in the news a few months ago. That neighborhood went downhill over 40 years ago and it has NOT gotten better. Far too many people who are in severe poverty would rather look to criminal activity than to hope in Christ Jesus come to provide a money to support their horrible heroine or cocaine or other type of drug habit! Recovery programs for drug addicts around here are not as successful as the "media" wants everyone to think! The ghetto is not going to change for some preacher come to tell them to stop behaving badly. When drugs take over the person and robbery is their means of getting money to support their drug habit. You had better be well armed when they come to bring you harm! Else they will TAG YOU as an EASY TARGET and repeat the crime on YOU as many times as they can, over and over and over again! Criminals avoid the places that they know will point a gun or a big weapon back at them!


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[follower of Christ]

I always had a problem with this, but this brother explains it really well. I am talking about the statement of Jesus to turn the other cheek, because I mean how can you stand there and let somebody beat you into the ground.

What Did Jesus Really Mean When He Said "Turn the Other Cheek"?
Quote
[AD]

I found this article and thought it was worth mentioning.

The full article is here, but I copied and pasted the subject thread part:
[link to http://www.zmag.org]

Christian Nonviolence

December 17, 2004 By Walter Wink


Walter Wink's ZSpace Page

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (attributed to Jesus in Matthew 5:38-41, Revised Standard Version)

Many who have committed their lives to working for change and justice in the world simply dismiss Jesus' teachings about nonviolence as impractical idealism. And with good reason. "Turn the other cheek" suggests the passive, Christian doormat quality that has made so many Christians cowardly and complicit in the face of injustice. "Resist not evil" seems to break the back of all opposition to evil and counsel submission. "Going the second mile" has become a platitude meaning nothing more than "extend yourself." Rather than fostering structural change, such attitudes encourage collaboration with the oppressor.

Jesus never behaved in such ways. Whatever the source of the misunderstanding, it is neither Jesus nor his teaching, which, when given a fair hearing in its original social context, is arguably one of the most revolutionary political statements ever uttered.

When the court translators working in the hire of King James chose to translate antistenai as "Resist not evil," they were doing something more than rendering Greek into English. They were translating nonviolent resistance into docility. The Greek word means more than simply to "stand against" or "resist." It means to resist violently, to revolt or rebel, to engage in an insurrection. Jesus did not tell his oppressed hearers not to resist evil. His entire ministry is at odds with such a preposterous idea. He is, rather, warning against responding to evil in kind by letting the oppressor set the terms of our opposition.

A proper translation of Jesus' teaching would then be, "Do not retaliate against violence with violence." Jesus was no less committed to opposing evil than the anti-Roman resistance fighters like Barabbas. The only difference was over the means to be used.

There are three general responses to evil: (1) violent opposition, (2) passivity, and (3) the third way of militant nonviolence articulated by Jesus. Human evolution has conditioned us for only the first two of these responses: fight or flight.

Fight had been the cry of Galileans who had abortively rebelled against Rome only two decades before Jesus spoke. Jesus and many of his hearers would have seen some of the two thousand of their countrymen crucified by the Romans along the roadsides. They would have known some of the inhabitants of Sepphoris (a mere three miles north of Nazareth) who had been sold into slavery for aiding the insurrectionists' assault on the arsenal there. Some also would live to experience the horrors of the war against Rome in 66-70 C.E., one of the ghastliest in history. If the option of fighting had no appeal to them, their only alternative was flight: passivity, submission, or, at best, a passive-aggressive recalcitrance in obeying commands. For them no third way existed.

Now we are in a better position to see why King James' servants translated antistenai as "resist not." The king would not want people concluding they had any recourse against his or any other sovereign's unjust policies. Jesus commands us, according to these king's men, to resist not. Jesus appears to say say that submission to monarchial absolutism is the will of God. Most modern translations have meekly followed the King James path.

Neither of the invidious alternatives of flight or fight is what Jesus is proposing. Jesus abhors both passivity and violence as responses to evil. His is a third alternative not even touched by these options. The Scholars Version translates Antistenai brilliantly: "Don't react violently against someone who is evil."

Jesus clarifies his meaning by three brief examples. "If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Why the right cheek? How does one strike another on the right cheek anyway? Try it. A blow by the right fist in that right-handed world would land on the left cheek of the opponent. To strike the right cheek with the fist would require using the left hand, but in that society the left hand was used only for unclean tasks. As the Dead Sea Scrolls specify, even to gesture with the left hand at Qumran carried the penalty of ten days penance. The only way one could strike the right cheek with the right hand would be with the back of the hand.

What we are dealing with here is unmistakably an insult, not a fistfight. The intention is not to injure but to humiliate, to put someone in his or her place. One normally did not strike a peer in this way, and if one did the fine was exorbitant (four zuz was the fine for a blow to a peer with a fist, 400 zuz for backhanding him; but to an underling, no penalty whatever). A backhand slap was the normal way of admonishing inferiors. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; men, women; Romans, Jews.

We have here a set of unequal relations, in each of which retaliation would be suicidal. The only normal response would be cowering submission. It is important to ask who Jesus' audience is. In every case, Jesus' listeners are not those who strike, initiate lawsuits, or impose forced labor. Rather, Jesus is speaking to their victims, people who have been subjected to these very indignities. They have been forced to stifle their inner outrage at the dehumanizing treatment meted out to them by the hierarchical system of caste and class, race and gender, age and status, and by the guardians of imperial occupation.

Why then does Jesus counsel these already humiliated people to turn the other cheek? Because this action robs the oppressor of power to humiliate them. The person who turns the other cheek is saying, in effect, "Try again. Your first blow failed to achieve its intended effect. I deny you the power to humiliate me. I am a human being just like you. Your status (gender, race, age, wealth) does not alter that. You cannot demean me." Such a response would create enormous difficulties for the striker. Purely logistically, how can he now hit the other cheek? He cannot backhand it with his right hand. If he hits with a fist, he makes himself an equal, acknowledging the other as a peer. But the whole point of the back of the hand is to reinforce the caste system and its institutionalized inequality.http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... 665517/pg1

Good read. enjoyed it thoroughly...

 

[follower of Christ]

It would be interesting to know just how many times someone who, in the heat of an argument, grabbed a gun and shot the other person out of anger and frustration; someone who wouldn't have ever been considered a criminal in the slightest. It is the evil that runs in us that is troublesome, not just the evil that is "out there."

thus.......

:eyebrow

 

[Lewis]

Read this, about this poor woman, they broke a cast iron, frying pan in half on her now you know that is some force, this was a elderly woman, and I am very angry about it, she lived in my section of Philly which is the Germantown section.


Police seek leads in woman's bludgeoning death

By REGINA MEDINA
Philadelphia Daily News

medinar@phillynews.com 215-854-5985
Whoever killed Ellen A. Walton with a metal frying pan was waiting for her, lurking outside her Germantown home.

The 68-year-old grandmother parked her Toyota SUV in her rear driveway, as she always did, and when she turned her key to enter the back door, the unknown person or people pushed her inside, Homicide Unit Capt. James Clark said yesterday at a news conference.

The assailants "savagely beat" Walton's head with the frying pan inside her home on Magnolia Street near Washington Lane, Clark said.

The frying pan was found near her body and was "actually broken in half," Clark said. "We believe that is going to be the murder weapon."

Walton, who was retired but whose previous occupation is unknown, was pronounced dead shortly after police found her about 1 a.m. Monday, Clark said.

Investigators are trying to determine when the events occurred and are reviewing Walton's phone records and bank statements and interviewing her neighbors, Clark said.

The "heinous crime" could have taken place earlier this weekend or "she could have been there for a week," he said.

Homicide detectives are also looking at video surveillance from a nearby Acme supermarket where Walton was possibly seen driving around on Sunday, law-enforcement sources said yesterday.

The posse of killer-thieves then ransacked Walton's home of 16 years and stole two to three TV sets, possibly some jewelry and her 2005 gray Toyota Rav 4, the captain said.

A tow-truck driver later found the SUV abandoned on Yerkes Street near Crittenden with two flat tires, and that discovery eventually led police to find Walton's body in her basement, law-enforcement sources said.

Police had received reports of the same car driving erratically in the area and believe that's how the car ended up with two flats, Clark said.

Sometime early Monday, the tow truck driver knocked on Walton's door, prompting a neighbor to call 9-1-1 believing a robbery was under way. Police arrived and soon realized no robbery was taking place. They entered through the back door and found Walton.

Clark is asking the public's help in finding the killer or killers. Anyone with information about the case is asked to call the police Homicide Unit at 215-686-3334.

 

[follower of Christ]

Frankly, in the right/wrong circumstances, neither of those persons would survive a week and thus wouldnt be able to complain to the rest of us who WOULD defend their families.

.

Stick Drew and Free in the middle of a hard core ghetto and let them see how well their professed passifist methods work. I live in a neighborhood where it isn't even safe to walk down to the corner store for a gallon of milk, at night. There are so many robberies going on right now because of all the job losses that it isn't even safe in the suburbs around here!
People getting robbed in parking lots while walking to their car. And then we have the passivists who think that to do nothing physically to defend oneself but to only use words, is the answer? :crazy I'll tell ya what! The stores around here in which the owner used a gun to save himself from the attacks of the robbers are not robbed anymore! the theives stay away from their store now! And most of the corner stores and gas stations around the area are owned and operated by Muslims who do not hesitate on second to pull a gun or a macheti [sp] on someone who walks into their store and looks like they might be a threat. The theives around here have gotten so emboldened that they are now driving their vans or truck right through storefront windows (after hours) to grab cash registers and ATM machines. The only way to stop these idiots is to STOP ENABLEING THEM. Cameras are all over this town and the suburbs it appears that not even the cameras are stopping these WILD Animals who have not one bit of civility in them. Yeah place Drew and Free in the middle of the ghetto as a clerk in one of those storefronts! Then we'll shall see if they do or don't start to believe in packing a weapon then! It's usually the folks who've never had any physical offense upon themselves are the ones who advocate passivist means of defense. :gah These people just don't get it. Drew you don't know how lucky you are to never have had any physical confrontation in your life! My mother was robbed three times when she was living in the innner city when she got off the bus upon arrived at home from her long day at work. We didn't find out about the last two robberies until AFTER we got her out of that horrible neighborhood. And by the way that horrible neighborhood was only 10 blocks away from the very neighborhood that that serial killer who killed over 11 women is from that was in the news a few months ago. That neighborhood went downhill over 40 years ago and it has NOT gotten better. Far too many people who are in severe poverty would rather look to criminal activity than to hope in Christ Jesus come to provide a money to support their horrible heroine or cocaine or other type of drug habit! Recovery programs for drug addicts around here are not as successful as the "media" wants everyone to think! The ghetto is not going to change for some preacher come to tell them to stop behaving badly. When drugs take over the person and robbery is their means of getting money to support their drug habit. You had better be well armed when they come to bring you harm! Else they will TAG YOU as an EASY TARGET and repeat the crime on YOU as many times as they can, over and over and over again! Criminals avoid the places that they know will point a gun or a big weapon back at them!


.

 

[follower of Christ]

Drew suppose you can't avoid deadly force, a dude has broken into your home, and is about to kill your wife and children, then what Drew ? You just stand there, or use that gun under the sofa, if you can get to it ? Or if you heard him break in, and you got your gun out of the night table, are you going to let him hurt your family Drew ?

It really doesnt matter what some claim, the facts are that we are ALL are given a self preservation instinct by the Creator, and an instinct to protect our mates and offspring.
Ive seen more than one pacifist make claims in my life....and seen what happens when they ARE actually pushed to defending themselves or their families.

Making claims about how we'd react to violence is fairly meaningless when its never actually happened.
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[follower of Christ]

I just want to throw out some thoughts to consider. The bible tells us to 'turn the other cheek' and we respond with 'but what if?' The bible is there to guide us. We learn from it and build upon it. The bible lays out the foundation of how to live our lives according to what Jesus taught while he was here on earth. We build upon this foundation.

First, lets look at the question of how one 'turns the other cheek' when their life is threatened. I you truly believe you are 'alive' in Christ you have already died to this world and physical death has no hold over you, plainly put death is not to be feared. What kind of witness does that leave the person who would kill someone that didn't lift a hand in defense? Jesus death moved the 'Gentiles' as they seen a man put to death by his own people for no known crime other then claiming to be their 'messiah'. His death planted the seed that Paul's ministry watered.

Second, in response to the question of what do you do when your family is threatened. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son according to what he thought was 'God's will.' If we believe everything happens for a reason why wouldn't we think that if someone we loved was killed by a random act of violence that 'God' didn't have some 'good' planned for it?

These are just random thoughts from a different perspective. The 'reality' of these types of questions is that all we can do is answer them hypothetically unless actually put in said situation. I can't honestly answer that I would idely stand by while my family was being harmed.

Ive been in positions to draw and shoot, so I can speak from first hand experience (unlike most here) about what MY reactions would be, rather than from hypothesis.

For example, in NY state in late 2004 I was at home talking to my soon to be wife on the phone when someone came to the front door. They were 'knocking' hard enough to break the glass so, phone in hand, I opened the door very quickly.
A larger man in his later 20's is standing there telling me he 'needs to get in' to get upstairs. I explained to him that there were no stairs in my apt to the upper floor and went to close the door at which point he blocked the door with his arm, but I had my foot behind the door to keep him from opening it very far.
He again tells me he needs in and starts to get loud and aggressive about it and it became clear that his intent was to get 'in'.
I told Laura I had to go, turned the phone off, and holding the door, explained to the gent one last time that he wasnt coming into my apartment, but he was determined to get it anyway.
I opened the door pretty much all the way and then slammed it on him so hard that it knocked him out onto the porch on his back.
I opened the door and repeated that I told him that he was NOT coming into my apartment. Then I closed the door and called 911.

The entire time I had a 357 magnum in my pocket that I could very easily have drawn and my guess is that many folks would have done just that because of the aggressiveness of this guy and not knowing what his actual intent was.

I know myself well enough to know if Id draw on someone or not, and I know that it would be in a case where the person left me with no other options. Banging this chap with the door was an option and it worked.


As for the foundation of Jesus' teachings, Jesus ALSO said to give to EVERY man who asks of us. No conditions or limitations are given by Christ, just blanket instruction to GIVE.
If we take that statement 'as is' without ANY context allowed then this means I can demand any amount of money or property from ANY TRUE christian on this site and they are OBLIGATED to give me what I demand without question or hesitation or thought.
I hardly think that was Jesus' intent or we'd be put into a position where we'd be enabling men like my brother who wont even keep a job to feed his children.

OTHER scriptures say that if a man wont work, neither let him eat.
So if my brother wont work, but ASKS me for food ...which scripture takes precedence ? The one that says to GIVE to EVERY man who asks....or the one that says if he WONT work to not feed him ?

So we HAVE to take scripture as a WHOLE, including the OLD testament, into account when looking to understand what GODS intent actually is.

Otherwise we end up with these whacked out, godless doctrines such as these Name it and claim it prosperity teachings that DO actually have 'clear' scripture they are based on....even if they are completely oblivious to the context as a whole

 

[follower of Christ]

I often wonder about those who think the uber-pacifist way. No resistance, no defense of loved ones etc.... What do their wife and kids think about that? Wouldn't you hate to be a young girl in that house? :crazy

"Well, if a goblin breaks in here my daddy is just going to let them have their way with me."

The good thing is that, contrary to their professions and beliefs, even these 'uber-pacifists' are going to grow a spine if and when the time comes and defend their families.
It doesnt matter what they claim as they havent yet been put to the test in the matter.
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[Relic]

.

follower of Christ,

I wouldn't give them a week in the ghetto around the type of people many of us here have to deal with on a daily basis! :gah

It cracks me up when people from suburban churches come into the inner city to feed the bums on the streets of downtown Cleveland. Even the bums know to stay away from the ghetto! s Let these so called suburban "missionaries" go inot hte ghetto and live there in a neighborhood where you can't walk the street to the corner store at night because the likelihood of getting robbed is 9 out of 10 times, and the likelihood of getting shot by a stray bullet from some crazy gang member is a 50/50 percent chance! :bigfrown
And many of those neighborhood you can't even walk the street during the daytime! let alone at night! Druggies and hookers are mainly the ones on the street and all the people who are halfway decent are scared to death in their homes in hope of not being the next one to be robbed or accosted by these thugs that are on the streets!

It just makes me totally astounded that passivists just don't get it! They are all talk and no EXPERIENCE with dealing with thugs in the ghetto! Poor Christian people who live in the ghetto cry daily because their sons got mixed up with these gang members and are involved in drug dealing because the "money" from dealing drugs is the only means they can find to make money. The cause and effect of ghetto behavior is so horrible and really a horrible situation to overcome. And passivists think that coming to the outskirts of the ghettos where the bums are to feed them sandwiches is going to make a difference? The bums don't even go deep into the ghetto because they know they won't last for even one night without getting beat up just for the fun of it by these gang members and/or druggies who are out to find their next "vulnerable" easy target.

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