Bible Study Two Covenants: The Old and New

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Some are led to listen. Some can't hear. Some think they hear, but what are they hearing?

If the Divine Intention was to give Perfect Hearts, then it would be so. Obviously that is not the case. So what in the world is really going on? I might propose, exactly what God wants to be going on at any given time.

In the O.T. God gave certain laws, directives, instructions, performed miraculous actions, etc. Yet God also did not give very many hearts understandings. And what understandings there were then, were Divinely hidden, obscured, shadowed. And God dealt harshly with the people He called out, eventually scattering them. Literally, destroying them.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Paul concedes to the truth/fact that he too only saw in part and as "as" somewhat darkly. 1 Cor. 13:12

In politics we are always promised changes. But even the masses know that changes can only come from the top.

We can "try" to change ourselves, but these are largely "acts" of "actors." None of us are "fit" with powers to engage the very real problems of this present world. We "reflect" very PALE matters of sharing things like Mercy or Grace or even Faith. We share in the dark. Nor are all the promises any good without the power to actually change, and to see such change, as A Divine Reality, which can only come from Above.

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

And, therefore, we wait for same:

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

To even be enabled to see such things, as obscure as they presently are, is a miracle. We are all familiar enough with the problems and the suffering of this world, in all it's present forms. And whom of us can "define" Perfection? I certainly can't. Anything I might see has no semblance to Perfection, but is only a very pale and dark reflection.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

These are the questions I too observe.

Only God in Christ can do with creation, what His Intentions are with same. I, personally, am headlong, purposefully, Divinely so, into weakness. It is from there, that I look to Him for His Promises to unfold. These things are in none of our hands.

Deuteronomy 32:36
For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

All the talk talk and guess guess in the world does a man in weakness no good. I know this weakness, intimately so. God loves you when He pummels you into the whole of weakness. Power mongers and manipulators are a dime a dozen in this wicked wicked world. I am finished with such manipulators, demanders, pseudo controllers.

God in Christ has aligned His Goal:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Anything I have to say to God would probably seem incoherently ignorant to Him. I know it would. I have nothing to say to God. Better to keep silent before The King.

And make ready for the storms that will put down.

Yes, I expect "change." I have no expectations of anything from this wicked world other than more wickedness and more death, til this place runs the wicked and death cycles that God has ordained for same.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

There are baby goats in the yard next to me, bellowing like little children for their mother and their mothers milk, waiting blindly, completely unknowingly for their last minute of complete and utter panic to their deaths, to be slaughtered and cut apart for meat on somebodies table. Are we any different?


Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

God, I hate this place. It is where bloody butchers live. And sadly, I am one also, by participation. Anyone who thinks they see life in this land of death is optimistically blind. They see nothing, but the temporal and passing into dust in the wind, where it rightfully belongs.

Psalm 39
1 I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.
2 I was dumb with silence, I held my peace, even from good; and my sorrow was stirred.

3 My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue,
4 Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is: that I may know how frail I am.
5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
6 Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.

7 And now, Lord, what wait I for? my hope is in thee.
8 Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish.

9 I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; because thou didst it.
10 Remove thy stroke away from me: I am consumed by the blow of thine hand.
11 When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.

12 Hear my prayer, O Lord, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.
13 O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.




 
No. All I am saying is Elijah and John were not one in the same. In fact they are two separate and distinct individuals. But John came in the Spirit of Elijah. And by knowledge of the written word, that was good enough for you. But when it comes to exercising real Faith, well, I will leave that up for yourself to judge.

.

If I may ez, I'd like to post a thought from my Matthew studies. it was a common doctrine among the Jews that Elijah would appear before the Messiah came. Having said that, look at, Matthew 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." Just saying.
 
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Great! We finally agree.


So now my faith must be judged because I disagree with you? If I don't have the "real Faith" you have, I won't understand the things you teach that are not found in the Word? :rolleyes

jacor, if I'm not mistaken, you are a Messianic Jew, right? Is this the reason you don't identify as being Christian? I'm sorry that my memory is not very good these days. I believe that you and I go back some in discussing prayer requests with your extended family. Is that correct? Thank you.
 
If I may ez, I'd like to post a thought from my Matthew studies. it was a common doctrine among the Jews that Elijah would appear before the Messiah came. Having said that, look at, Matthew 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." Just saying.

Chopper, I certainly hope that you are not questioning whether I think John the Baptist was the fulfillment of Elijah, for I most certainly you. So I hope that we just don't focus on a single comment taken out of context of the conversation.

When I made that comment I was responding to jocor who had mad a reference to the different spelling between the Hebrew word for Zion and Sion. And because the spelling was different, they couldn't possibly be the same. If you would go back and look at the correspondence, you will see that I was trying to point out if Sion and Zion are not the same, then by the letter of the word (ie. spelling) then I should expect that JOHN and ELIJAH were the same. It had nothing to do with Jesus explaining to the disciples that John truly was Elijah.
Just saying.
 
jacor, if I'm not mistaken, you are a Messianic Jew, right? Is this the reason you don't identify as being Christian? I'm sorry that my memory is not very good these days. I believe that you and I go back some in discussing prayer requests with your extended family. Is that correct? Thank you.
I am not a Messianic Jew, nor am I Jewish (at least I don't think I am, but who knows?) I call myself a Messianic Israelite (a person joined to Israel through Messiah Yeshua).

When I joined the forum there was no option to identify myself as a "Messianic _____________". I had to say either yes or no to, "Are you a Christian?" or something similar. Since I do not believe certain key Christian doctrines, I could not identify myself as such and based on the fact that I reject certain key Christian doctrines, even Christians would not consider me a Christian. However, one does not need to be a Christian to be a believer in and disciple of Messiah Yeshua, the Son of Almighty Yahweh.
 
JLB,

Has the church replaced Israel? This is part of the reason that I started this study, hoping by looking at the characteristics of both covenants, we might understand better the perspective from which we view these things, and maybe somewhere along the way some one might be blessed and comforted by some revelation.

The dead in Christ have and old covenant relationships with the Lord. They have accepted Jesus as their Lord and his sacrifice upon the cross, but they continue to offer up the sacrifice of Christ as the offering of their sins. They would be of the persuasion that the Church has replaced Israel which is why the church has taken unto themselves the judgements that were prophesied of Israel, and they too, just like the apostles and all others living under the old covenant, they expected a physical King who would come and destroy their oppressors, and lead their nation to righteousness. They are still bound to the kingdoms of this world, and they serve and obey the Lord after the manner of the flesh.

The living in Christ have a new covenant relationship with the Lord. They have accepted Christ as their Lord and his sacrifice upon the cross. But that sacrifice was a one time sacrifice that sealed the covenant that was promised to Abraham. And just like the new covenant (Abrahamic) that actually preceded the old covenant (Mosaic) by 430 years, so to did the church (the body of Christ): For Israel was named after Jacob, but what saith the scripture? In Isaac shall thy seed be called (Rom 9:6-8). The people with a new covenant relationship do not continually cast their sins upon the cross, they have accepted through Faith the promise of God that he would remember their sins no more, and they walk trusting in the Grace of the Lord. Those with a new covenant relationship do not wait for a future kingdom or a future king, but through Faith walk in the reality that the Kingdom of Heaven is present with them, and that the Spirit of Christ already dwells within their hearts. They do not serve after the manner of the flesh, they serve and worship in Spirit, for God is a Spirit.
Israel was a nation for two purposes. The first was to be the linage for Christ and the second was to give the law. The law was given to prove we need a savior to "put a heart of flesh" (Exek 11:19) because we can't on our own follow the law. Two things happened because of Jesus crucifixion. One the veil of the Temple was torn. The veil of the Temple separated the Holy of Holies where the Holy Spirit dwelled. That was a representation that the Holy Spirit was now available to live in the hearts of man, not just in the Temple. The other thing that happened was in 70A.D the Temple was destroyed, the records were destroyed, and the Jews scattered. This represented that the Lord was through working with the Jewish Nation the way he had done before. They now have the same way to heaven as we do and the Lord works with them the same way he does with the Gentiles.
Do you know that most Jewish people no longer believe that they are decedents of Abraham? That is the very definition of being Jewish, isn't it? If they don't believe they are the decedents of Abraham then they are in and empty religion that is only held together by ritual. They aren't Jews at all.
Did the church replace Israel, yes it did because in this New Convenant God deals with His people in a different way, and he deals with everyone equally, Jew or Gentile.
 
I almost completely agree with IncredibleTransformation except for

I see it this way The Church does not replace Israel the Church is a continuation of God's people.. A subtil difference yet a difference.. We are part of Israel and Israel is part of us... I am not speaking of land mass...

Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
He is the Saviour of all who cal on His name...


Rom_9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
 
Did the church replace Israel, yes it did because in this New Convenant God deals with His people in a different way, and he deals with everyone equally, Jew or Gentile.


The Church [The Ecclesia; the called out ones: the holy nation of God] began with Abraham, and the Covenant the Lord made with him.

We are grafted into that Covenant, in Christ Jesus.

The Lord who made Covenant with Abraham, became flesh, in which He confirmed the Abrahamic Covenant with His blood.

It's now called the "New Covenant", which is a "refreshed" Abrahamic Covenant.

The law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant "until" the Seed should come, to whom the promise was made.

Added; means the law of Moses was a "part" of something greater.
Until; means it was temporary.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

again

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 3:23-25


The New Covenant is the "refreshed" Abrahamic Covenant, which we are "grafted into" in Christ.


16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Romans 11:16-18



The whole revelation of the Gospel message, is Jesus is Lord; YHWH, the Lord God of Israel.


Obeying the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord; YHWH, the Son of God, the creator of heaven and earth, who became flesh and died for our sins on the cross and was raised from the dead on the third day.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:8-13


This is a quote from Joel, and is a reference to YHWH, the Lord of Israel.




JLB