TwoPart?ForFuturists

[jasoncran]

hitch its revalant.

the promise of that isnt before the millenium but at his coming! why then would the rapturable saint have to be warned of said judgment?

 

[Asyncritus]

i am beginning to see that revalation is about isreals judgment and peters verse speaks of the end of age of mans rebellion. not fully convinced but it makes sense at times.

Excellent fact, jason. There's so much proof of that, it falls off the page when you really look carefully.

BTW, it that your babe as your avatar?

 

[jasoncran]

she is my step-grandaughter .she will be an early talker.

 

[freeway]

Yes revelation is all about future prophecy. Most prophecy had a two stage effect the near full fillment and future fulfillment. If the church is to go through the tribulation why is it not talked about "not once" through all the judgments. We have the two witness, the 144,000 seal Jews.. And what is the job of these? to preach the good news of Jesus. The end will come as a flood upon a Christ rejecting world. As in Noah day you had a chance until God shut the door. So like wise every man will have a chance up until Christ appears.. These that reject God and his plan for salvation will not escape the fire. But the saints that make it through the trib "those that come to know Jesus" will repopulate the world. So if the rapture is at the end of tribulation, who repopulates the world.
So much more could be said but will stop there for now.

 

[freeway]

To Reba and Hitch, Hitch sorry for the smart-ars remark, Reba thank for the deletion. won't happen again..

 

[jasoncran]

i have often hear of this two stage thing but yet i havent really seen that.a precursor?

heres the problem. so when the ac happens the we gentile christians and jews freed from the shabat mandate have to only travel a thousand ft from the temple? what if i am here in florida when that happens. where does one flee?

and no, i dont see the trib saints on the earth when he comes heres why.

take note that all the verses showing them in heaven. and they alone reign on the earth if you take it that way. the removal before the wrath is what i believe. we are going to be removed before the firey judgment.

 

[Hitch]

To Reba and Hitch, Hitch sorry for the smart-ars remark, Reba thank for the deletion. won't happen again..

Fair enough.

 

[Hitch]

Yes revelation is all about future prophecy. Most prophecy had a two stage effect the near full fillment and future fulfillment. If the church is to go through the tribulation why is it not talked about "not once" through all the judgments. We have the two witness, the 144,000 seal Jews.. And what is the job of these? to preach the good news of Jesus. The end will come as a flood upon a Christ rejecting world. As in Noah day you had a chance until God shut the door. So like wise every man will have a chance up until Christ appears.. These that reject God and his plan for salvation will not escape the fire. But the saints that make it through the trib "those that come to know Jesus" will repopulate the world. So if the rapture is at the end of tribulation, who repopulates the world.
So much more could be said but will stop there for now.

Jesus didnt have any charts but he was clear on when the resurrection would take place and any scheme that fails to align itself with Christ is doomed.

 

[Hitch]

1. Can the rapture happen at any moment?

1.a , Is Bible prophecy being fulfilled today?

Please remember the focus.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


I too say yes and yes.

Wars, rumor of wars, earthquakes and many falling away from Gods word only to be deceived by Satan for their lack of knowledge has always been prevalent through out history even the increase of all these things as in the days of Noah before and after the flood as nothing has changed as this world continues to wax worse. Revelation is a forewarning of things that have come and things that will come before the great and terrible day of the Lords return in the clouds to take his bride home.

I believe most all of prophecies have been fulfilled except for the two battles to come, which you can read about on my website under Second Coming of Christ, as these two final battles will occur after every nation and tribe has a chance to hear the word of God as there are yet many remote tribes that have not yet been discovered. As Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 he will not return until every nation has had a chance to hear his word being taught.

 

[jasoncran]

i can answer what my pastor believes. but not what i believe

yes to both.

i strongly disagree as tribbers in america seem to think america is that special to god. they forget perhaps god is shifting his blessings to a nation willing to let him in.

i have two nations in mind. s korea and china. the former sends more missionaries out to the world then us and chinese christians are growing in numbers and in china the govt is slowly allowing them to put christian displays on govt buildings.

 

[Hitch]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Dont you know the gospel went all over the world in the first century , as the NT says?
Romans 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

I too say yes and yes.

Wars, rumor of wars, earthquakes and many falling away from Gods word only to be deceived by Satan for their lack of knowledge has always been prevalent through out history even the increase of all these things as in the days of Noah before and after the flood as nothing has changed as this world continues to wax worse.

One of the most important problems commonly associated with futurism is its extremely low view of the work of the cross, hear you state publicly the the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was of no discernible effect

Revelation is a forewarning of things that have come and things that will come before the great and terrible day of the Lords return in the clouds to take his bride home.

I believe most all of prophecies have been fulfilled except for the two battles to come, which you can read about on my website under Second Coming of Christ, as these two final battles will occur after every nation and tribe has a chance to hear the word of God as there are yet many remote tribes that have not yet been discovered. As Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 he will not return until every nation has had a chance to hear his word being taught.

Wow I suggest a review of NT teaching.


Can you be specific wrt which Bible prophecies are currently being fulfilled? You answered yes but later in your response you seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[Hitch]

Another look at DF teaching before 1948.

.6 There is no difficulty in understanding how with her satelites (including Germany), Russia will be wicked enough to try and wreak such vengeance on Jews who will then be in their l own and dwelling comfortably,for all Christians in the world will have been caught up-long before this- to be with their Lord in the air.The nations are wicked enough today , but what will thay be capable of when not a Christian remains as a mollyfing influence?



A couple of pages later;

6' This attack against Palestine from the north cannot take place before the tribulation period expires,as is outlined in the foregoing pages. This is proved by the dual statements that only then will the people and Israel know why the latter went into captivity (see chapter 39;23;28) and the promise that the Lord will not hide his face any more from them.(See Verse 29.)

7. In the plan of God the centre of the world's stage today is the church, swo all prophecies concerning any indicated Gentile nation or combination of nations are held in abeyance until the church is taken away.

8. And the next great event is the Rapture of the Church,and indications pointing the events in Ezekiel 38- which cannot be fulfilled now-suggest the nearness of our Lord's call for His own...





THE COMING NORTHERN CONFEDERACY l SALE-HARRISON,@1928,pgs 99,101. Emphasis added.

Interesting to note that while Dr Sale writes the bulk of this work in 1928, shortly after the death of Scofield and the founding of DTS, the quotes are taken from the 15th edition, from the final chapter added following the end of WWII. In the text battles of 1945 are mentioned, but I could not find a date for the re-print. A Hundred bucks American says it was before 1948, heh heh

Most contemporary futurist dont know that the founders of the movement ,almost to a man predicted ,through the dispensitional system , that the church, must be removed before the founding of modern Israel.

 

[freeway]

Hitch to answer your question with respect. I do not believe any other prophecy has to be full filled in order for the rapture to take place. the great deception that comes upon the world could be directly related to the disappearance of millions of people.
2. I do believe prophecy is being full ffilled today. I'll list just a few. Israel will stand alone with no one to help her fight her enemies at the end times. Psalms 83 war I believe is right around the corner. Those nations listed in that war are not listed in the Gog Magog War. Finding oil in Israel where the invaders try to plunder. I can give scriptures for these prophecies, but felling lazy tonight.


by the way post 1000 2

 

[Hitch]

Hitch to answer your question with respect. I do not believe any other prophecy has to be full filled in order for the rapture to take place.

If any prophecy is currently being fulfilled then it must be because God has decreed it so. Therefore it had to come to pass , yes?

the great deception that comes upon the world could be directly related to the disappearance of millions of people.
2. I do believe prophecy is being full ffilled today. I'll list just a few. Israel will stand alone with no one to help her fight her enemies at the end times. Psalms 83 war I believe is right around the corner.

So how is that being fulfilled today?

Those nations listed in that war are not listed in the Gog Magog War. Finding oil in Israel where the invaders try to plunder.

Im old, old enough to remember when the great treasure was going to be the Dead Sea minerals, didnt work out so well. But I've never seen the one about oil I'll wager there isnt one, but rather one you have heard someone subjectively interpret to mean 'oil'

I can give scriptures for these prophecies, but felling lazy tonight.


by the way post 1000 2

If God is busy today fulfilling prophecy how do you know whether or not another fulfillment will take place before the rapture?

 

[freeway]

Hitch;589704]If any prophecy is currently being fulfilled then it must be
because God has decreed it so. Therefore it had to come to pass ,
yes? So how is that being fulfilled today?

Yes. since the garden of Eden when God told Satan that the seed of Eve would crush the head of the seed from the serpent.. prophecy.. When God told Noah about the flood coming, which Noah took over a hundred years to build the ark. Well every nail, ever day he worked was prophecy being full filled.

Im old, old enough to remember when the great treasure was going to be the Dead Sea minerals, didnt work out so well. But I've never seen the one about
oil I'll wager there isnt one, but rather one you have heard someone
subjectively interpret to mean 'oil'

Yes I remember that also it was a powdery mineral. We are alway trying to put fact to prophecy. To me thats human we want to know the unknown. Bible does say they come to take a plunder, something that will benefit the victor. So if history is going to wind down soon as "I believe" 25 yrs or so it has to be something everyone wants "oil". Which at this time in history seems to be every industrial nation's lust.

If God is busy today fulfilling prophecy how do you know whether or not
another fulfillment will take place before the rapture?

I don't know. and I repeat "I DON"T KNOW" emphases me. I think Jesus could come back to night. Now that would set the world upside down and possibly speed things up. Or it could be after the Psalms 83 war. either way or how ever it happens only God knows. Not some preacher that likes to put a date on it.. may 21 comes to mind.

 

[freeway]

Hitch, one thing I would like to add to the above statement. Throughout the bible God has never intervened in the history or to change the course of man without letting man know. Weather it be a prophet, or one of his chosen, or Jesus himself. God does not keep his children in the dark. Its us that screw up the facts "prophecies".

 

[Stormcrow]

First, is it true that Christ led both His disciples and the Sanhedrin to believe - based on the passages I cited - that they would see His return during their lifetimes?

1. No

I can't tell if you're pulling my leg with that one or not. Really?

"...you [disciples] will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

"...some of those who are standing here...will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

"...hereafter you [Caiaphas] will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

2. Well you have clearly shown that in Scripture the Lord's 'coming' is most often realized in the spiritual as none of the passages cited require His physical presence,in contrast to the Nativity. It is also important that none of the passages make reference to or mention directly anything about returning, the returning part is added subjectively.

I see your point. You prefer not to use the word "return" over "come." I think either works in the context of what He said as long as we see His "return" (or coming) "on the clouds" viewed through the same prophetic language used to describe God's coming in judgment against a nation or people in the O.T.

In other words, return is a perfectly acceptable synonym in this case because He came once as Savior and "returned" in judgment, as Paul writes in Hebrews:

{27} And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, {28} so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:27-28 (NASB)

If He came once and promised to come again - even if only in the clouds - I'd say that meets the definition of a "return."

In that light, certainly His return in judgment upon Israel in 70 AD is something He clearly told His disciples and the Sanhedrin would happen.

Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

 

[for_his_glory]

Dont you know the gospel went all over the world in the first century , as the NT says?
Romans 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:




One of the most important problems commonly associated with futurism is its extremely low view of the work of the cross, hear you state publicly the the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was of no discernible effect Wow I suggest a review of NT teaching.


Can you be specific wrt which Bible prophecies are currently being fulfilled? You answered yes but later in your response you seem to indicate otherwise.

Yes, according to Romans 10:18 the word did go out throughout all the earth, but where it says all the earth was metaphoric for going out among the Israelite as they heard the word of God, but yet rejected Messiah, except for the remnant God saved for their belief, for the Israelite thought that all others outside of their tribe were heathens (Gentiles) not worthy of God because they were all considered pagans. In the first century many countries did not even exist including America so how could the Disciples travel to every single person through out the whole world. Only God knows when that last person will accept Jesus so His word is still going out into all the earth.

Where did I ever say the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was of no discernible effect? His life, death and resurrection are the effects of our belief as we too are partakers of his life, death and resurrection through the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual regeneration of our mind, body and soul through faith as we accept Jesus as our personal Savior.

Many prophecies of the OT and NT have been fulfilled as there are others yet to be fulfilled. One of those prophecies that is even now coming to be fulfilled in the future is a new world economic system of a socialistic dictatorship government. Like I said if you would just read what I have written about the second coming of Christ on my website it will explain where I am coming from for what I post on these forums. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but I would at least ask you to study the scriptures I give to support what I have written so the Holy Spirit can reveal all truths to those who have Spiritual ears and eyes to hear and see what the Spirit is teaching us.

 

[Hitch]

Yes, according to Romans 10:18 the word did go out throughout all the earth, but where it says all the earth was metaphoric for going out among the Israelite as they heard the word of God*, but yet rejected Messiah, except for the remnant God saved for their belief, for the Israelite thought that all others outside of their tribe were heathens (Gentiles) not worthy of God because they were all considered pagans. In the first century many countries did not even exist including America so how could the Disciples travel to every single person through out the whole world.

This is hilarious; Exactly why would you suppose the Holy Spirit inspired that particular choice of words? Do you think the Holy Spirit forgot what Jesus had said? And I'd love to know ,since you reject Paul's repeated teaching wrt the Gospel going out, if you also reject the the writer of Hebrews who tells us, under inspiration, at least so I've always believed until now, that Christ came once in the end of the world

Only God knows when that last person will accept Jesus so His word is still going out into all the earth.

Where did I ever say the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was of no discernible effect?

Right here;
Wars, rumor of wars, earthquakes and many falling away from Gods word only to be deceived by Satan for their lack of knowledge has always been prevalent through out history even the increase of all these things as in the days of Noah before and after the flood as nothing has changed as this world continues to wax worse.

His life, death and resurrection are the effects of our belief as we too are partakers of his life, death and resurrection through the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual regeneration of our mind, body and soul through faith as we accept Jesus as our personal Savior.

According to Paul the Gospel preaching bears fruit, according to you it changes nothing. Not only that, it is a part in the ever worsening world.

Many prophecies of the OT and NT have been fulfilled as there are others yet to be fulfilled. One of those prophecies that is even now coming to be fulfilled in the future is a new world economic system of a socialistic dictatorship government.

How can the rapture be possible any moment if there are yet to be fulfilled prophecies, doesnt God know what He has planned ? Can you tell me strait faced the Holy Spirit is behind the notion of teaching the any moment rapture while knowing there or prophecies waiting for fulfillment? [/quote]

Like I said if you would just read what I have written about the second coming of Christ on my website it will explain where I am coming from for what I post on these forums. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but I would at least ask you to study the scriptures I give to support what I have written so the Holy Spirit can reveal all truths to those who have Spiritual ears and eyes to hear and see what the Spirit is teaching us.

]LOL That is a great example of a symptom of the disease of futurism.

I never ask anyone to agree with me, but I would at least ask you to study the scriptures


And in the very same breath you say;

Holy Spirit can reveal all truths to those who have Spiritual ears and eyes to hear and see what the Spirit is teaching us.



If you can sell it ...

* Do I need to explain the hint?

Futurist have always claimed to be the 'in crowd' ,one need not agree with them but those who are in tuned to the Spirit always do, interesting if tired old implication;

Yet we have the blessed assurance that every passing day brings our salvation nearer then when we believed. And while it is true that the church, during all her history, has had repeated evidence that the day was approaching, we ask, what are these evidences in our time? Surely they are of especial significance.

Shortly previous to the first coming of Christ the Holy Ghost, although He had given through Daniel a special revelation unto the devout Simeon-who was 'waiting for the consolation of Israel', to-wit:' that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Luke 2;26. And this leads us to ask: May not the same blessed Spirit who thus revealed this mighty event to Simeon of old (and probably the aged Anna also) likewise give unto a favored one, or chosen few of the faithful watching ones, to know that their glad eyes shall see His appearing, and that they shall never taste of death. Even so now, many of the most devout and faithful of God's people, in all denominations, both in this and foreign lands, are seriously impressed with the conviction, that the coming of the Lord is near.

W.E. Blackstone, Jesus Is Coming ,1908 pgs 210,212,213. Emphasis added , portions of this article were first published @1875.


Or not.