Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

[brightfame52]

You missed my point. I agree election is unconditional, not predicated upon what we are in this fallen realm. But I believe it WAS conditioned on God's foreknowledge:

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)

Conditioned on what God foreknew in them that loved Him after God loved them first, in His Omniscience where the "unfallen version" had truly free will and knew God perfectly. Those who did not love God He did not elect:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
(Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

Its is God's good purpose and will that NOT ONE of those who loved Him in His Omniscience, fail to be restored because of this fallen realm. Everything will work for their salvation, even Hell itself:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)

What is true of Elect Jews is true for Elect Gentiles for there is no partiality with God:

For there is no partiality with God. (Rom. 2:11 NKJ)

You still making it conditional. Its unconditional because the predestinated ones didnt have any existence yet.

 

[brightfame52]

For you it’s “you did what?” I started a discussion. What are the elected to do or be?

I replied in your discussion that election is unconditional. God made His choice of some before the foundation before they existed in real time. Do you believe that ?

 

[brightfame52]

Please show the scripture that’s says one must be in a saved state to believe?


Please define what a “saved state” according to the scriptures.




JLB

I already showed you. The Gospel is hidden to them that are lost. A person cant believe something that is hidden from them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I replied in your discussion that election is unconditional. God made His choice of some before the foundation before they existed in real time. Do you believe that ?

But that didn’t answer my question. Elected to be what?

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is all just speculation and opinion.

We have enough of that, which only breeds division.


Please use scripture to formulate a basis of mutual understanding.



JLB

Not speculation:

29 For whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29 NKJ)



2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko). Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (Rom. 11:2 NKJ)



The sense of "foreknew" (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko) in Romans 11:2 is also meant by Paul in Romans 8:29, its knowing a selection of people "before others":

Sense: to foreknow (personally) – to befriend or be acquainted with someone in a familiar way ahead of time or before meeting; implying an exclusivity of choice relative to those not befriended-Bible Sense Lexicon, Logos Bible Software

The church has debated what the "foreknowledge" of God is since Augustine and I believe they missed the above connection, because they didn't correctly quantify God's Omniscience, He knows all things without the act of foreknowledge. He is Infinite, all spacetime is in Him, including what is future. Nothing exists apart from God, including the future.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You still making it conditional. Its unconditional because the predestinated ones didnt have any existence yet.

Evidently you don't want to discuss my "two version" explanation. That's ok. We agree its not conditioned because of what we are or do now, in our "fallen version."

But Divine Reprobation isn't the logical corollary of that agreement because God DID condition His selection based upon what He saw in the "unfallen version" of the Elect:

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)

Everyone's free will had equal chance in the Omniscience of God, to choose to love Him back when He loved them first. AND all who loved God in His foreknowledge were predestined so this fallen realm cannot deny them life with God for all eternity:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't believe we are born "totally depraved."

On my site I illustrate how a different perspective can resolve apparent contradiction:

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:


The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

[At first read it contradicts that John is in two different states at the same precise time]

Its my argument both "conditional" and "unconditional" Election are true, when seen from different perspectives.

It seemed to me that you presented yourself as a Calvinist. Am I wrong?
Part of the problem is that there are so many different types of Calvinists - with differing ideas. It makes it a little difficult to get to the meat of the discussion.

I must say, however that both Conditional and Unconditional election could not be true or God would be causing a confusion...

Will continue reading to understand you better.

Election was conditioned on God''s foreknowledge of the "unfallen version" of us, all who loved God in that perfect state when their free will was truly free, are predestined to salvation.

Although I understand a little of what you state above...your comment leaves much to be desired to understanding your position.

The "unfallen version" of us no longer exists. You're speaking in the past tense.
We can only love God in the here and now.
How could our feelings for God be in the past tense??

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
(Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

Notice nothing is said about the wicked. If Reprobation were correct, Paul would have said so, here. Reprobation, Total Depravity, these are logical deductions from the failure to have the right perspective and see the whole picture.

Nothing is said in the above about the wicked. But the N.T. has much to say about those that do not love God.
Romans 1:28 is a good start.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

I do agree with you that reprobation, as understood in Calvinism, is not correct...
however, it doesn't seem that you finished your though up above.
What IS the whole picture??

As the "unfallen version" of us never came into existence, existing solely in the Mind of God before creation, there is no connection to the "fallen version" that we are now. Nothing we have or will do played a part in our election, hence from that perspective its "unconditional".

You said it's both.
HOW is it conditional?

And how did the "unfallen version" of us never come into existence if the N.T. says we are all born lost?
Ephesians 2:1-3
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not speculation:

29 For whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29 NKJ)



2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko). Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (Rom. 11:2 NKJ)



The sense of "foreknew" (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko) in Romans 11:2 is also meant by Paul in Romans 8:29, its knowing a selection of people "before others":

Sense: to foreknow (personally) – to befriend or be acquainted with someone in a familiar way ahead of time or before meeting; implying an exclusivity of choice relative to those not befriended-Bible Sense Lexicon, Logos Bible Software

The church has debated what the "foreknowledge" of God is since Augustine and I believe they missed the above connection, because they didn't correctly quantify God's Omniscience, He knows all things without the act of foreknowledge. He is Infinite, all spacetime is in Him, including what is future. Nothing exists apart from God, including the future.

God FOREKNEW a bunch of persons.
What does that prove???

 

[Alfred Persson]

It seemed to me that you presented yourself as a Calvinist. Am I wrong?
Part of the problem is that there are so many different types of Calvinists - with differing ideas. It makes it a little difficult to get to the meat of the discussion.

I must say, however that both Conditional and Unconditional election could not be true or God would be causing a confusion...

Will continue reading to understand you better.



Although I understand a little of what you state above...your comment leaves much to be desired to understanding your position.

The "unfallen version" of us no longer exists. You're speaking in the past tense.
We can only love God in the here and now.
How could our feelings for God be in the past tense??




Nothing is said in the above about the wicked. But the N.T. has much to say about those that do not love God.
Romans 1:28 is a good start.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

I do agree with you that reprobation, as understood in Calvinism, is not correct...
however, it doesn't seem that you finished your though up above.
What IS the whole picture??


You said it's both.
HOW is it conditional?

And how did the "unfallen version" of us never come into existence if the N.T. says we are all born lost?
Ephesians 2:1-3
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

I am not Calvinist, but do thank him for much insight on salvation by grace alone, eternal security of the believer, even much of what he says about election and predestination.

If you would do me the courtesy of rereading my explanations to you and others on this issue, perhaps my beliefs will become clear.

On my site a post titled God's Plan explains how I can read the same scriptures you read, and still hope billions of all who died will be saved.

While many struggle with the traditional concepts of hell as torment of the wicked, I do not because there is an additional reason to "burn the sin and delusion" from the wicked----to restore their free will and give them their last chance to repent and believe in Christ.

All attempts to evade the fact only those who believe in Christ will be saved, are unscriptural. Only disbelief in Christ results in eternal damnation. That means everyone who dies without learning about Christ correctly in this life, will in Hell.

All who die without Christ go to hell, and there they pay for their wickedness. But they have hope, as Peter said:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

God FOREKNEW a bunch of persons.
What does that prove???

It proves God's love existed before time itself.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It seemed to me that you presented yourself as a Calvinist. Am I wrong?
Part of the problem is that there are so many different types of Calvinists - with differing ideas. It makes it a little difficult to get to the meat of the discussion.

I must say, however that both Conditional and Unconditional election could not be true or God would be causing a confusion...

Will continue reading to understand you better.



Although I understand a little of what you state above...your comment leaves much to be desired to understanding your position.

The "unfallen version" of us no longer exists. You're speaking in the past tense.
We can only love God in the here and now.
How could our feelings for God be in the past tense??




Nothing is said in the above about the wicked. But the N.T. has much to say about those that do not love God.
Romans 1:28 is a good start.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

I do agree with you that reprobation, as understood in Calvinism, is not correct...
however, it doesn't seem that you finished your though up above.
What IS the whole picture??


You said it's both.
HOW is it conditional?

And how did the "unfallen version" of us never come into existence if the N.T. says we are all born lost?
Ephesians 2:1-3
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

I confused you with another poster. Lets go through your questions again:



1) I consider myself a primitive Orthodox Christian, like Athanasius. I reject icons and the Filioque, and find my beliefs closely track Protestant Baptist (Cessationist) except in personal eschatology, Hades, Lake of Fire, postmortem evangelization, etc.. I strip away the errors that arose in the early church and follow the "Jewish-Apostolic" teaching found in the NT only, not creeds or councils.



2) I cannot be grouped under Calvinism or Arminianism. Both made a fundamental error in logic, and then they chose one side against the other. I say "both sides" are right, that election is BOTH "conditional" and "unconditional" and rather than this being confusion, it should resolve the dispute between Calvinists and Armenians.



To illustrate: Two blind men are describing what an elephant looks like, one holds his tail, the other his Trunk. Then they get mad at each other because "clearly the other guy is wrong."



They can't see the bigger picture, the entire elephant. If they did they would stop arguing. They are both right BUT failed to see the Elephant's body.



My hypothesis reveals the entire elephant. However, its my own research, you won't find others discussing it. Not yet anyway. So only I can answer questions about it.



3) The "unfallen version" existed only in the Mind of God before creation, it never came into existence. Its what we would have been IF the fall never happened. But the Fall did happen, hence the "fallen version" is what we are today.



4) The whole Picture:

Evidently it was unacceptable to God the fallen realm would corrupt so many of those He knows are His. Nor was it acceptable to refuse to create and all who would choose to love God (after He loved them first 1 Jn. 4:19) would not come into existence. Neither was tolerable.



Election unto Salvation resolved God’s dilemma. Only creatures with absolute free will, could love God freely for Who He is. If their Free Will were a farce, their “robot love” would be an abomination. Therefore, to endow free will yet permit the inevitable fall occur [or the Beloved would never exist], God had to predestine they be saved, regardless what the fall made them become.



In other words, in a fallen world few would be saved in this life. Most never hear the gospel. Many are deceived by the temptations and lies of this fallen realm and so ignore or despise what little of the gospel they heard.



Therefore, God predestines the Elect unto salvation, even if they must pass through hell first before they repent and believe in Jesus.

The torments of Hades are the “antidote” to the poison of the fall. Those torments cannot fail to bring one to their senses. Only those irrevocably set against living in God (John 17:21; Rev. 21:3, 22-23) in Holiness and light (James 1:17) will fail to repent and believe in Jesus and be saved.



But there is a penalty to pay for endowing creatures with free will. Some would choose evil. As God knew the fall was inevitable, He had to endure with much long suffering these vessels of wrath (Rom. 9:22-24).



*****So that is why Evil exists in the Word, it’s an unwanted but inevitable consequence of granting us and the angels truly free will.*****



5) Only the "unfallen versions" who freely chose life in Holiness and purity and fellowship in love with God, had their "fallen versions" unconditionally predestined unto salvation.

As the "unfallen version" only existed in the Mind of God before Creation, there is no real connection to the "fallen version" that came into existence after God created, and the fall happened.

Hence whether Election is conditional or unconditional is a matter of perspective.

When looked at before time, God conditioned His selection upon free will choice to live with God in love. Looking at the fallen version backward, then nothing we do or are in this fallen realm is the reason why God selected us.

Paul:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.- Eph 2:8-9.

Peter:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.-1 PET. 1;1-2.

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:

At 9 AM today John entered the state of New York”
At 9 AM today John left the state of New Jersey”.

The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

So also the apparent contradiction between “Unconditional” and “Conditional” Election. God conditioned election according to what we were in His omniscience, not according to us now after He chose to create.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God FOREKNEW a bunch of persons.
What does that prove???

Made me laugh…but quietly, I’m in a train

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am not Calvinist, but do thank him for much insight on salvation by grace alone, eternal security of the believer, even much of what he says about election and predestination.

If you would do me the courtesy of rereading my explanations to you and others on this issue, perhaps my beliefs will become clear.

You know Alfred, it’s pretty common for people to say they thank God for the (amazing) insight they have. The test comes when other people also thank God for the insight one has or if they have a different reaction.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It proves God's love existed before time itself.

Because God knew (persons) doesn’t prove God loves. Knowing is not loving. Those two states or abilities are not connected. Knowing a man doesn’t mean therefore one loves a man.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Because God knew (persons) doesn’t prove God loves. Knowing is not loving. Those two states or abilities are not connected. Knowing a man doesn’t mean therefore one loves a man.

Scripture reveals God loved us before time existed, and you cannot love what you don't know and because God loved us, He foreordained ALL THINGS WILL WORK FOR OUR GOOD (Rom. 8:28), just as a "lover" would:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)
'
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko). Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (Rom. 11:2 NKJ)


The sense of "foreknew" (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko) in Romans 11:2 is found Romans 8:29, its knowing a selection of people "before others":

Sense: to foreknow (personally) – to befriend or be acquainted with someone in a familiar way ahead of time or before meeting; implying an exclusivity of choice relative to those not befriended-Bible Sense Lexicon, Logos Bible Software

QUESTION—In what sense is the verb προγινώσκω ‘know beforehand’ used here?
… Before the foundation of the world God knew them intimately and chose them [NICNT, NTC], or loved them specially and chose them [Ho].…The knowing here has the Hebraic sense of a relationship experienced and acknowledged [WBC]. God knew and loved them beforehand [Mu, St].-Abernathy, D. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 1–8 (2nd ed., p. 560). Dallas, TX: SIL International.

 

[brightfame52]

God knew that all men by nature fit in this description of things Rom 3:10-19

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Scripture reveals God loved us before time existed, and you cannot love what you don't know and because God loved us, He foreordained ALL THINGS WILL WORK FOR OUR GOOD (Rom. 8:28), just as a "lover" would:

D: Knowing doesn’t mean loving. You are in a logical fallacy. Besides God loves the whole world including Esau John 3:16.

The Romans promise is absolutely conditional. Your quote leaves off the conditions.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)
'
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko). Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (Rom. 11:2 NKJ)


The sense of "foreknew" (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko) in Romans 11:2 is found Romans 8:29, its knowing a selection of people "before others":

Sense: to foreknow (personally) – to befriend or be acquainted with someone in a familiar way ahead of time or before meeting; implying an exclusivity of choice relative to those not befriended-Bible Sense Lexicon, Logos Bible Software

QUESTION—In what sense is the verb προγινώσκω ‘know beforehand’ used here?
… Before the foundation of the world God knew them intimately and chose them [NICNT, NTC], or loved them specially and chose them [Ho].…The knowing here has the Hebraic sense of a relationship experienced and acknowledged [WBC]. God knew and loved them beforehand [Mu, St].-Abernathy, D. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 1–8 (2nd ed., p. 560). Dallas, TX: SIL International.

D: The latter is the theology for sure. Not the scripture but the theology.

Again God loved the whole world…the whole world.

 

[brightfame52]

Evidently you don't want to discuss my "two version" explanation. That's ok. We agree its not conditioned because of what we are or do now, in our "fallen version."

But Divine Reprobation isn't the logical corollary of that agreement because God DID condition His selection based upon what He saw in the "unfallen version" of the Elect:

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)

Everyone's free will had equal chance in the Omniscience of God, to choose to love Him back when He loved them first. AND all who loved God in His foreknowledge were predestined so this fallen realm cannot deny them life with God for all eternity:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

You still making it conditional, no way around it. Election and predestination are unconditional because the ones elected and predestined were so before they had any being in time. You keep indicating that God chose them or predestinated them based on His knowledge of them in time. Thats not biblical or true.

 

[Edward]

D: Knowing doesn’t mean loving. You are in a logical fallacy. Besides God loves the whole world including Esau John 3:16.

You are correct about Esau. Hated is a poor translation and totally throws a wrench into understanding about what God was feeling.

 

[brightfame52]

You are correct about Esau. Hated is a poor translation and totally throws a wrench into understanding about what God was feeling.

I dont believe thats correct, hated is the word the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write. God hates all the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Is hated a poor translation here also ?