Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

[Alfred Persson]

Please address the scripture I quoted, whereby Jesus says we must "remain" in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



Do you believe it is necessary for a person to believe the Gospel, to be “in Christ”?



JLB

I fully accept the plain language of Christ's teachings.

Also these texts, they say precisely what they mean.


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Heb. 6:4-8


26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb. 10:26-31


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For tit would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Pet. 2:20-22


16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. (1 Jn. 5:16 NKJ)


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:9-12 NKJ)


But recall, I believe among the Elect are many "non-elect" who can be saved if they continue in the faith.

If they fall into total apostasy their blood is upon their own head--- Christ and His apostles fully warned them what will happen.

Then its unknown if they truly believed. I don't believe they had "root" in them so they fall away.

But its different for those elected by God unto salvation (for it is impossible to predestine they be conformed to an "unsaved image of Christ").

God does not permit they be lost.

No one can snatch them from God's hand, that includes they themselves:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

PS All sin is willful and we all are guilty of it, but if we confess our sins God forgives:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn. 1:9-2:1 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

You have given me scripture that has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion or the question I asked you.


Can you answer my request to provide a scripture that teaches us
“one must be in a saved state to believe” (your statement)


Please define what a “saved state” is according to the scriptures.


How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14





JLB

The scripture I have provided have everything to do with the matter. As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is being hid from them. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in a lost state, we believe not, that pretty much settles it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I fully accept the plain language of Christ's teachings.

Also these texts, they say precisely what they mean.


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Heb. 6:4-8


26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb. 10:26-31


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For tit would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Pet. 2:20-22


16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. (1 Jn. 5:16 NKJ)


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:9-12 NKJ)


But recall, I believe among the Elect are many "non-elect" who can be saved if they continue in the faith.

If they fall into total apostasy their blood is upon their own head--

The scripture I have provided have everything to do with the matter. As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is being hid from them. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in a lost state, we believe not, that pretty much settles it.

What you are missing is the complicated intricacies of a man moving from the state of unbelieving into the state of believing. You are trying to make it simple. It is not. Most people cannot accurately trace this development in their own hearts. The end result of repenting and experiencing forgiveness stands out, but that is only the end of the pursuit. The small actions of the Holy Spirit drawing them are often hidden from them.

I think the most accurate explanation is along the lines of “many are called but few are chosen.” God calls many (who else is calling?) But nevertheless not all who are called are chosen by Him. What can this depend upon? The only logical answer is the necessary but insufficient response to this calling in the human heart. This places some responsibility upon us. We cannot call ourselves. But our being chosen must rest upon us. What must we do? What the question is each man must ask at the awareness of the call. The answer Jesus gives varies.

 

[JLB]

I don't believe that, its absurd. Nor do I recall saying anything close to that. Its absurd, totally confused.

Can you answer this question for Brightfame52?



How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


JLB

 

[JLB]

The scripture I have provided have everything to do with the matter. As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is being hid from them. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Please define what a “saved state” is according to the scriptures.


How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

 

[Alfred Persson]

Can you answer this question for Brightfame52?



How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


JLB

They can't. More than once I quoted Peter:
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

Why are you asking me about things I don't believe?

You are wasting my time.

From now on, unless you quote something I said I'll ignore your posts.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What you are missing is the complicated intricacies of a man moving from the state of unbelieving into the state of believing. You are trying to make it simple. It is not. Most people cannot accurately trace this development in their own hearts. The end result of repenting and experiencing forgiveness stands out, but that is only the end of the pursuit. The small actions of the Holy Spirit drawing them are often hidden from them.

I think the most accurate explanation is along the lines of “many are called but few are chosen.” God calls many (who else is calling?) But nevertheless not all who are called are chosen by Him. What can this depend upon? The only logical answer is the necessary but insufficient response to this calling in the human heart. This places some responsibility upon us. We cannot call ourselves. But our being chosen must rest upon us. What must we do? What the question is each man must ask at the awareness of the call. The answer Jesus gives varies.

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them,
26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
27 "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it--
29 "lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
30 "saying,`This man began to build and was O not able to finish?'
31 "Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
32 "Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.
33 "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned?
35 "It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Lk. 14:25-35 NKJ)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them,

26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
27 "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it--
29 "lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
30 "saying,`This man began to build and was O not able to finish?'
31 "Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
32 "Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.
33 "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned?
35 "It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Lk. 14:25-35 NKJ)

How is this a reply to my post? Btw, when you share the salvation message to others, do you tell them they need to hate their parents first? I was wondering how far your claim that you (above others apparently) take the simple words of Jesus goes.

 

[Alfred Persson]

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them,

How is this a reply to my post? Btw, when you share the salvation message to others, do you tell them they need to hate their parents first? I was wondering how far your claim that you (above others apparently) take the simple words of Jesus goes.

Christ was very clear, it addressed your "complicated intricacies of a man moving from the state of unbelieving into the state of believing" perfectly. Until you want Christ as your LORD above even life itself, perhaps you aren't ready to "move".

As for "hating parents", that's Jewish idiom used to emphasize (via hyperbole) a point. The sense is, love parents LESS than one loves Christ. Same when its said God hated Esau. It emphasized election of one over the other. God blessed Esau with wealth, clearly He did NOT hate him literally.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Christ was very clear, it addressed your "complicated intricacies of a man moving from the state of unbelieving into the state of believing" perfectly. Until you want Christ as your LORD above even life itself, perhaps you aren't ready to "move".

As for "hating parents", that's Jewish idiom used to emphasize (via hyperbole) a point. The sense is, love parents LESS than one loves Christ. Same when its said God hated Esau. It emphasized election of one over the other. God blessed Esau with wealth, clearly He did NOT hate him literally.

I recall you claim you take the “clear words of Jesus” implying the rest of us don’t. When asked if you actually do teaching it, you have to admit you don’t in that case.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I recall you claim you take the “clear words of Jesus” implying the rest of us don’t. When asked if you actually do teaching it, you have to admit you don’t in that case.

Wow. Explaining what I do doesn't imply anything about you or anyone else. And I am a follower of Christ, been so over 40 years. I prefer quoting His words, letting Him speak for Himself. Neither does that imply anything about you or anyone else. Its what I do.

 

[JLB]

They can't. More than once I quoted Peter:
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

Why are you asking me about things I don't believe?

You are wasting my time.

From now on, unless you quote something I said I'll ignore your posts.

Because you responded to a post I had made for Brightfame52.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Wow. Explaining what I do doesn't imply anything about you or anyone else. And I am a follower of Christ, been so over 40 years. I prefer quoting His words, letting Him speak for Himself. Neither does that imply anything about you or anyone else. Its what I do.

Do you want me to point out specifically when your words do exactly that? You don’t seem to see it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Do you want me to point out specifically when your words do exactly that? You don’t seem to see it.

No. When someone personalizes what they hear or read, that's their own conscience speaking. Not how I write my words.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Because you responded to a post I had made for Brightfame52.

I'll try to refrain from doing that in the future.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. When someone personalizes what they hear or read, that's their own conscience speaking. Not how I write my words.

How did I personalize your words? By your own words we are allowed to judge you. When you claim you take the simple words of Jesus we are allowed (and it’s superior wisdom to do so) to match your claim of your (superior) taking the words of Jesus as he said them. You, yourself, set up the standard of how you think you operate. We are wise in seeing if you really do.

It’s a lot easier if you don’t claim such greatness for yourself. It’s easier to knock a man off a pedestal than one standing among peers.

 

[brightfame52]

What you are missing is the complicated intricacies of a man moving from the state of unbelieving into the state of believing. You are trying to make it simple. It is not. Most people cannot accurately trace this development in their own hearts. The end result of repenting and experiencing forgiveness stands out, but that is only the end of the pursuit. The small actions of the Holy Spirit drawing them are often hidden from them.

I think the most accurate explanation is along the lines of “many are called but few are chosen.” God calls many (who else is calling?) But nevertheless not all who are called are chosen by Him. What can this depend upon? The only logical answer is the necessary but insufficient response to this calling in the human heart. This places some responsibility upon us. We cannot call ourselves. But our being chosen must rest upon us. What must we do? What the question is each man must ask at the awareness of the call. The answer Jesus gives varies.

There is really no way to spin it, if a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden from them and they believe it not. So consequently before a person can believe the Gospel, they must be in a saved state, hence thats why Paul wrote 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Saved here is in the present tense, so they are in a saved state, and its to them[not the lost] the preaching of the Gospel/Cross is the power of God which causes them to believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Please define what a “saved state” is according to the scriptures.


How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

A saved state is being regenerated. Unless a person is born again, or regenerated, they are lost and dead in sin and the Gospel is hidden from them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is really no way to spin it, if a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden from them and they believe it not. So consequently before a person can believe the Gospel, they must be in a saved state, hence thats why Paul wrote 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Saved here is in the present tense, so they are in a saved state, and its to them[not the lost] the preaching of the Gospel/Cross is the power of God which causes them to believe.

That’s the theology for sure. It’s full of man’s assumptions that don’t match the scripture nor life.

Jesus told one man he was not far from the Kingdom of God. Was he already saved because he obviously understood some truth? If so why did Jesus say only “far” and not in? If not, how could have understanding that impressed Jesus?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I very much agree with the first part of your post.
Many are saved that know nothing of theology or doctrines.
But they depend on Jesus for their salvation and this is indeed what will save them.

I do not agree with the statement regarding the fact that those that fall away from the faith were never saved to begin with. This is the belief of many that are uncomfortable with the fact that salvation comes at the end of life - although we can be sure of it if we persevere till the end and abide in the vine.

Jesus Himself said in your verse that some believed FOR A WHILE.
They believed for a while and THEN fell away.

Paul states that some fall away.
What are they falling away from?

1 Timothy 4:1
Matthew 24:10
James 5:19

and so many other verses.

This is why I have to believe that one can believe and then fall away...

There is a problem with your view, Scripture affirms all who call upon the name of the LORD will be saved. Its not qualified, there is no "if":

All who call on the Lord's name will be saved. (Rom. 10:13 CEB)

But, our LORD gave two examples where people seem to believe (and that is what they fall from), but have no divine "root" in them OR the seed of life never entered their heart, it fell among the thorns:

20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Matt. 13:20-22 NKJ)

However, I do believe the "non-elect" can be saved, but only if they continue in the faith. Hence I accept all the texts you cite, and there are a bunch more, that warn believers to not fall back into sin and unbelief. I apply all those to the "non-elect" whose names can be written in or blotted out of the book of life:


Everyone has every opportunity to choose life and join the Elect. That is required by the presence of names in the Book of Life that are not "The Elect":

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

The promise is a fraud if the name cannot be blotted out from the Book of Life. Therefore, this is not spoken to the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out. Elected before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11) their names were written "before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; Eph. 1:4). As they are predestined unto salvation (Rom. 8:29) they overcome.



Therefore, names can exist in the Book of life that are not "Elect", the "undetermined" could be written in or blotted out. They have free will choice and equal chance to be saved with the Elect. For example, the names of the wicked men chasing David potentially could be written in the book of life. David asks God blot their names out so that doesn't happen:

May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NAS)

An Aramaic Psalms Targum explains how some ancients understood this verse:

Give iniquity for their iniquity, and let them not be purified to enter the assembly of your righteous ones. (Ps. 69:28 PST)

The Book of Life has the names of the Elect and potentially the undetermined (who could choose to go either way). The latter are judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13,15), which determines which books their names appear in on Judgment Day.

But then we are back at square one. Did they ever really believe? Not the ones who fall away, because Christ said they had no "root".

We can't know people's hearts. God alone does. To us it may seem a person really believes, but we don't know their secrets, what part of their life they don't want God in. Christ demanded total commitment, He would accept no less:

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them,
26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
27 "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it--
29 "lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
30 "saying,`This man began to build and was O not able to finish?'
31 "Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
32 "Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.
33 "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. (Lk. 14:25-33 NKJ)

Although I tried to sell all I owned (and failed, some of it was stolen at the swap meet when I was given "the bum's rush), and I couldn't sell my car because I needed it for work.

A literal selling of what one owns is NOT required, but the reality behind it is required ----sell all they own "in their heart", that is: Put Christ above everything else.

Jesus Christ our LORD, Yahweh the Eternal Son of Yahweh the Father, demands exclusive devotion.