Bible Study Under The Old Covenant Death Is Forbidden

[GodsGrace]

Speaking of the Lord, 'I ... create evil' (KJV) is not a good translation. That one verse does not give us a doctrine of theodicy - the vindication of God in the midst of evil in our world.

The KJV translates Isa 45:7 (KJV) as, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things”.

The ESV reads, “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things”.

According to the KJV, God creates good (light, peace) and evil (see also Jer. 18:11; Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But there are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God (e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave us?

We know that God is morally perfect (see Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48). God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). But there is more to the attributes of God, including his absolute justice that requires that sin be punished by Him. So, there will be judgment by God in this life and eternally (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15). So, in this life, when God executes justice we sometimes call this “evil” because from our human perspective, God seems to be committing evil against these people and nations.

Were the Indonesian tsunami and the Joplin MO twister examples of God’s “evil” actions?



Civilians from town of Ohrdruf were forced to view the bodies [of Holocaust victims]

So, did God create the evil of the Holocaust? If we accept the KJV translation of Isa 45:7, we would have to relegate Hitler's evil to God's actions.

Check the meaning of ra in my article, Isaiah 45:7: Who or what is the origin of evil?

Oz

Oz,
You explained this so well.
I find it so disconcerting when someone posts that God created EVERYTHING, including evil.

I've also said that the Hebrew people ATTRIBUTED everything they experienced to the God they knew since this is what those populations did at that time.

It's just great to find Someone that understands as I do.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd like to repeat for those reading along that the OP is incorrect in its statement.
Jesus DID die under the Old Covenant.

Wondering

 

[Roro1972]

Speaking of the Lord, 'I ... create evil' (KJV) is not a good translation. That one verse does not give us a doctrine of theodicy - the vindication of God in the midst of evil in our world.

The KJV translates Isa 45:7 (KJV) as, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things”.

The ESV reads, “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things”.

According to the KJV, God creates good (light, peace) and evil (see also Jer. 18:11; Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But there are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God (e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave us?

We know that God is morally perfect (see Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48). God cannot sin (Heb. 6:18). But there is more to the attributes of God, including his absolute justice that requires that sin be punished by Him. So, there will be judgment by God in this life and eternally (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11-15). So, in this life, when God executes justice we sometimes call this “evil” because from our human perspective, God seems to be committing evil against these people and nations.

Were the Indonesian tsunami and the Joplin MO twister examples of God’s “evil” actions?



Civilians from town of Ohrdruf were forced to view the bodies [of Holocaust victims]

So, did God create the evil of the Holocaust? If we accept the KJV translation of Isa 45:7, we would have to relegate Hitler's evil to God's actions.

Check the meaning of ra in my article, Isaiah 45:7: Who or what is the origin of evil?

Oz

I take a different view of this verse.

No where does it say God uses evil to punish humans.
No where in the verse does it say that God has evil in him.
God does not tell us every little detail some times it is just enough for our imagination to go to work.
God created every thing.period. In my opinion all those things in your post that are evil was not done by God.
God punished the fallen angels by putting them here on earth with us and there actions is what changed us from the way God created us.
if we believe John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and we believe John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
then we say Isa 45:7 is wrong God did not create evil.
Now we know that evil happens in our world; it exist. And we say God did not create evil; the only two options remain
1. evil always has existed as did God always exist
2. some one other than God created evil
I do not go for either of the only two options you offer me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I take a different view of this verse.

No where does it say God uses evil to punish humans.
No where in the verse does it say that God has evil in him.
God does not tell us every little detail some times it is just enough for our imagination to go to work.
God created every thing.period. In my opinion all those things in your post that are evil was not done by God.
God punished the fallen angels by putting them here on earth with us and there actions is what changed us from the way God created us.
if we believe John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and we believe John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
then we say Isa 45:7 is wrong God did not create evil.
Now we know that evil happens in our world; it exist. And we say God did not create evil; the only two options remain
1. evil always has existed as did God always exist
2. some one other than God created evil
I do not go for either of the only two options you offer me.

Roro
Of course this is Christianity's big problem.
So what do you believe?
God created evil?
And we want to serve this being?

 

[smaller]

Roro
Of course this is Christianity's big problem.
So what do you believe?
God created evil?
And we want to serve this being?

There is no question God created the knowledge of evil and placed it in the Garden. It was not the knowledge of calamity. Same word in both Gen. 2:9 which most English translations render as evil in that case, as in Isaiah 45:7.

The term evil encompasses a lot of various actions, including calamity, wickedness and a host of other vivid descriptors.

There is no question that God created the knowledge of evil, and, as such, there is no reason to think this created knowledge doesn't serve His Purposes.

There is also a HOST of scriptures showing Gods quite vivid uses and deployments of evil throughout both the Old and New Testament, particularly in "retribution" to evil works.

The ultimate observation might be, did God Have A Hand in the death of His Own spotless lamb, Jesus in the flesh? Was that OK? What exactly might we term that action, if done by God? A GOOD MURDER of an innocent?

These kinds of observations are not as easy to handle as it appears with surface analysis. Theodicy is where a great number of theological strays insert their own notions rather than sticking with the facts, such as they are given, in scriptures such as Isaiah 45:7 or in Job's reception of evil from God in:

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

It is obviously not a sin to say that evil did come from God, as this scripture shows us.

Job concludes with the same sight in Job 42:
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Most failures come from NOT understanding Gods Superiority over all things, even evil. If God creates something, anything and then 'uses' it for HIS PERFECT PURPOSES, it is not a problem. Even though we may think otherwise. We just have to turn up the volume on Divine Superiority to understand that God is far Greater than any given thing or power under His Dominion. Some say that God is incapable of doing "moral evil." But we have no idea whatsoever about what PERFECT ETERNALLY MORAL is to start with. What we see is extremely LIMITED.

Is it OK for God to use evil to KILL man, one way or another? We all meet that fate regardless. Is "decay" evil? Is "disease" evil? Is "corruption" of the body "evil?" All of these could be considered "morally evil" and none of these things created themselves.

God created evil power beyond any question, because it exists and God created "all things." People who try to make evil power into it's own creator simply have no respect for THE CREATOR and give their concocted versions of God an non-required excuse so as to not implicate God. But God really doesn't need the excuses of/by anyone for anything that exists in His Own Creation. Even if we DO take that view, and God does not stop it, God Is Implicated, regardless.

In the final analysis the only option out of the mess is simply to understand that God Is Greater than any thing or power in His Own Creation, and is not merely HUMANLY moral, but PERFECTLY ETERNALLY MORAL. And that Seat can only be occupied by Him, Alone. IF anything being placed UNDER the domain of evil certainly shows us WHO'S THE BOSS.

The Perfect Eternal Boss is perhaps not all that interested in our "excuses" for Him anyway.

I'd propose that is exactly the purpose of evil power/action. And this action is demonstrated with His Own Son.

The very FALSE notions that God has to adhere to "human moral standards" is in fact utter nonsense. He Has A Perfect Eternal Moral Standard, for which we have no 'comparisons' to measure with. Using the "human moral quotient" is probably not a very good tool of understanding whatsoever.

We know for example from Davids sin of adultery and premeditated murder, that God killed his son and caused adultery to come into his household. Was that "humanly moral?" No way. But it IS GODS WAY, if He So Chooses, to render evil retribution of the NOT SO HUMANLY MORAL kind. That much is pretty obvious throughout the scriptures.

 

[Roro1972]

Roro
Of course this is Christianity's big problem.
So what do you believe?
God created evil?
And we want to serve this being?

one has to ask; do I believe John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
does evil exist? imo YES
then as I see it only 4 choices
1. evil has always existed like God has always existed
2. some one else created evil
3. OR God created evil;
4. evil does not exist
I just do not see more than 4 choices for someone to believe
just because I believe both verses does not mean I think God has ever or is or will use evil. as you know he does not need it to create; nor impose anything on anyone.

 

[OzSpen]

one has to ask; do I believe John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
does evil exist? imo YES
then as I see it only 4 choices
1. evil has always existed like God has always existed
2. some one else created evil
3. OR God created evil;
4. evil does not exist
I just do not see more than 4 choices for someone to believe
just because I believe both verses does not mean I think God has ever or is or will use evil. as you know he does not need it to create; nor impose anything on anyone.

Roro,

Are you forgetting the context of John 1:3 (ESV)? That context is 'in the beginning' (John 1:1 ESV) where the Word/Jesus WAS and he was in the beginning with God [the Father].

This is NOT talking about the creation of evil because in the beginning of the universe there was no evil created. God created human beings (Gen 1:26-27 ESV) and everything that God/Jesus the Word created 'was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). Evil cannot be described as 'very good'. It is 'very bad'.

Who created evil? Human beings did, as Gen 2:17 (ESV) confirms.

Oz

 

[Roro1972]

Roro,

Are you forgetting the context of John 1:3 (ESV)? That context is 'in the beginning' (John 1:1 ESV) where the Word/Jesus WAS and he was in the beginning with God [the Father].

This is NOT talking about the creation of evil because in the beginning of the universe there was no evil created. God created human beings (Gen 1:26-27 ESV) and everything that God/Jesus the Word created 'was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). Evil cannot be described as 'very good'. It is 'very bad'.

Who created evil? Human beings did, as Gen 2:17 (ESV) confirms.

Oz

humans were not given authority to create by God; or like him.
God created the tree and what ever it produces.

 

[OzSpen]

humans were not given authority to create by God; or like him.
God created the tree and what ever it produces.

Roro,

Even though you backquoted what I wrote in #27, you did not deal here with the content I wrote. Therefore your response is a red herring.

We can't have a rational conversation when you do this.

Oz

 

[Roro1972]

Roro,

Even though you backquoted what I wrote in #27, you did not deal here with the content I wrote. Therefore your response is a red herring.

We can't have a rational conversation when you do this.

Oz

# 27
Are you forgetting the context of John 1:3 (ESV)? That context is 'in the beginning' (John 1:1 ESV) where the Word/Jesus WAS and he was in the beginning with God [the Father].
I do not think I forgot the context. you were saying God did not create evil, I disagree and posted the only options I see if God did not create evil.

This is NOT talking about the creation of evil because in the beginning of the universe there was no evil created. God created human beings (Gen 1:26-27 ESV) and everything that God/Jesus the Word created 'was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). Evil cannot be described as 'very good'. It is 'very bad'.
How about one must believe every word in the bible is " God Inspired " I quoted Isa 45:7 so it must be in the bible therefore I believe it was God inspired for that to be written in my bible. I quoted John 1:3 and you quoted John 1:1.
Before God created the humans he created the Tree and hid evil in the tree and did not tell Adam and Eve; he did tell them not to eat of it; I can see they released the evil hidden the tree that created i do not see humans creating evil.
has the herring changed color?

 

[eddif]

Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Man's nervous system has the potential for good and evil, but he was made upright.

The garden was a shadow of things to come.

Physical life needs help to keep living.
.,,,,

Spiritual eternal life needs help / Jesus eternally seated at the right hand of the Father.

The devices of Satan / man set up evil / death. Did God set up the potential? Some did a great job explaning this.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Man's nervous system has the potential for good and evil, but he was made upright.

The garden was a shadow of things to come.

Physical life needs help to keep living.
.,,,,

Spiritual eternal life needs help / Jesus eternally seated at the right hand of the Father.

The devices of Satan / man set up evil / death. Did God set up the potential? Some did a great job explaning this.

eddif

Roro has a good point and one with which I agree.

How could a perfect and good being "set up" evil?
There should be no evil in Him to set up.

Wondering

 

[OzSpen]

# 27
Are you forgetting the context of John 1:3 (ESV)? That context is 'in the beginning' (John 1:1 ESV) where the Word/Jesus WAS and he was in the beginning with God [the Father].
I do not think I forgot the context. you were saying God did not create evil, I disagree and posted the only options I see if God did not create evil.

You did not deal with the context of John 1:3 that I provided from John 1:1 (ESV).

God who is perfection and purity cannot create moral evil. There is no darkness in God: 'This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all' (1 John 1:5 NIV).

How about one must believe every word in the bible is " God Inspired " I quoted Isa 45:7 so it must be in the bible therefore I believe it was God inspired for that to be written in my bible. I quoted John 1:3 and you quoted John 1:1.

The meaning of Isa 45:7 (ESV) is as the ESV translated: 'I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things'. You need to understand the meaning of the Hebrew, ra. See:
Does God create evil?

Before God created the humans he created the Tree and hid evil in the tree and did not tell Adam and Eve; he did tell them not to eat of it; I can see they released the evil hidden the tree that created i do not see humans creating evil.
has the herring changed color?

Sounds like an awful lot of Roro creativity in that statement. '
hid evil in the tree and did not tell Adam and Eve'? Come on, mate! Get a life and be realistic. That's an invention from Roro's mind.

'I can see they released the evil hidden the tree'. That's more of Roro's creativity.

'I do not see humans creating evil'. Then try reading the text of Gen 2:16-17 (ESV).

Seems to me that your post here is straight out of the mind of Roro and not out of Scripture.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

You did not deal with the context of John 1:3 that I provided from John 1:1 (ESV).

God who is perfection and purity cannot create moral evil. There is no darkness in God: 'This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all' (1 John 1:5 NIV).



The meaning of Isa 45:7 (ESV) is as the ESV translated: 'I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things'. You need to understand the meaning of the Hebrew, ra. See:
Does God create evil?



Sounds like an awful lot of Roro creativity in that statement. '
hid evil in the tree and did not tell Adam and Eve'? Come on, mate! Get a life and be realistic. That's an invention from Roro's mind.

'I can see they released the evil hidden the tree'. That's more of Roro's creativity.

'I do not see humans creating evil'. Then try reading the text of Gen 2:16-17 (ESV).

Seems to me that your post here is straight out of the mind of Roro and not out of Scripture.

Oz

Hi Oz,
For this discussion I find that scripture is not helpful.
Maybe this is a new thread and should be moved to the Lounge?

I have also read your article.

Roro is right in that, when you get right down to it, we don't know where evil comes from.
His list with the possible 4 reasons is correct; problem is that every reason presents a problem that cannot be solved.

It sounds like he's saying that God created evil since he says that God put the evil in the tree.
This is wrong.
What kind of an all-good God would do that?

You say that man unleased evil.
WHERE did the unleashed evil come from?

It's a problem with no solution.

Wondering

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,
For this discussion I find that scripture is not helpful.
Maybe this is a new thread and should be moved to the Lounge?

Wondering,

I find that Scripture provides the only satisfactory solution. It doesn't explain all of the intricacies of the how of evil beginning but it tells us how it began with Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16-17 ESV). Exactly what that 'tree' was and how it happened, we are not told.

What the texture was of this and how it happened, is in the mind and omniscience of God. The fact that it did happen this way is accurate according to Scripture.

By the way, it verifies that human beings have had free will from the beginning of creation. Adam could choose to eat or not to eat of this tree.

Roro is right in that, when you get right down to it, we don't know where evil comes from.
His list with the possible 4 reasons is correct; problem is that every reason presents a problem that cannot be solved.

To the contrary, we know exactly where evil came from. It came from Adam's eating from the tree. We are not told the chemical equations or other dimensions of how that happened, but we know that Adam was the cause of it in disobeying God, with the assistance of the serpent.

I do not believe Roro's list is unsolvable. Let's look at the list:

'1. evil has always existed like God has always existed'.
This is not a fact. Evil had a beginning (when Adam sinned). It is not eternal like God.

'2. some one else created evil'
That someone else was Adam as Gen 2:16-17 (ESV) confirms and Gen 3:1-3, 11 (ESV) verifies that there was assistance from the serpent.

'3. OR God created evil'.
God most certainly did not create evil as there is no darkness in him. He is light. There is ample Scriptural proof to demonstrate this. Ps 94:1 (NASB) states, 'O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth!' Interesting that in God's vengeance his light shines forth! See also 1 John 1:5 (ESV).

'4. evil does not exist'.
Blind Freddie knows that is untrue. Do you think what Mussolini did in WW2 was not evil? Was September 11 evil? How about the rape of children? What about the deceit in every human heart? (See Jer 17:9 ESV)

It sounds like he's saying that God created evil since he says that God put the evil in the tree.
This is wrong.
What kind of an all-good God would do that?

As I've expressed to him, some of his statements came with his own imagination and were not from Scripture.

You say that man unleased evil.
WHERE did the unleashed evil come from?
It's a problem with no solution.

I don't see it that way. Adam with the assistance of Lucifer unleashed evil on the universe. Evil is not a commodity or location from which evil can come. As to how God allowed Adam to do that, we don't have the particulars. God has chosen to keep that from us. If we needed to know more, He would have told us.

This is where I find Scripture to be extremely helpful in describing the origin of evil. It gives us no more than the necessities. For us to guess at more would be to impose our sinful thinking on the mind of God. Leave the details with him and be satisfied with the amount of information he has given.

This we do know: (1) God is pure light and perfection, and (2) therefore, He did not create moral evil.

Oz

 

[Edward]

A better translation would be "Thou shall not murder."
God, who gave that commandment also commanded the Israelites to completely wipe out all the Canaanites (man, women, children) and their herds and flocks too.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Seems like hardly anyone understands why God did that or how he could do that, and be a just and holy God.

The evidence is all over the place (Egypt), the wording is fairly plain, yet people just don't want to believe it. Refuse to believe it in fact.

This goes back to Genesis 6. Mankind's dna got corrupted and if a Messiah was to be born, He had to come from a pure blood line. So God had to put a stop to it with a flood. Even the women, children, and animals.

Enoch says that they toyed with animals dna to provoke God. All those statues and pictures in Egypt of men with birds heads and stuff like that...do you think the Egyptians just made those statues and pictures for fun? No, they were real. All flesh was corrupted, even the animals.

So all those so called innocent women children & flocks, had to go, spare none.

I don't like it anymore than you Brother's & Sister's, but it sure explains why God did that to those poor little Canaanites lol.

 

[jasonc]

Is Enoch cannon with the rcc,greek and Russian orthodox ,and jewry?

Enoch describes the giants as taller then mountains. Hmm 9 ft to a mountain

 

[eddif]

Roro has a good point and one with which I agree.

How could a perfect and good being "set up" evil?
There should be no evil in Him to set up.

Wondering

Isaiah 14:12 KJV
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jude 1:6 KJV
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Please reread my post,

God created all things good.

The devices that followed set up evil.

God works in us to do his will
Or
Satan works to get us to do his will.

The system God created good fell into the hands of temptation.

I do not trust the will of man. I trust the will of God working in man.
Philippians 2:13 KJV
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Isaiah 14:12 KJV
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jude 1:6 KJV
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Please reread my post,

God created all things good.

The devices that followed set up evil.

God works in us to do his will
Or
Satan works to get us to do his will.

The system God created good fell into the hands of temptation.

I do not trust the will of man. I trust the will of God working in man.
Philippians 2:13 KJV
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

eddif

Where did the evil in the devices come from?

 

[OzSpen]

Seems like hardly anyone understands why God did that or how he could do that, and be a just and holy God.

So have you surveyed almost everyone (in the world) to come to that statistical conclusion?