Bible Study Under The Old Covenant Death Is Forbidden

[smaller]

No,quite the opposite. They take some parts literal and others not so literal.
The idea of seven epochs is a Jewish one.ramban taught that from Genesis. The three wells of yitzac are interesting in his view, the third temple shall be one of the flesh.wasn't there a man who came and said that? Died on the cross?

I think Jewish ceremonies and rituals are thoroughly interesting and engaging from Christian perspectives. Nothing beats a Messianic Christian Passover resided over by a past serious Jewish convert to Christianity who hits correlative scriptural insight notes. The times I've participated are amazing celebrations. Deeply moving.

Not to mention great food.

 

[OzSpen]

Nah, it is a limited database. Mostly all Christians though.

Would it be fair to say that in the history of the Christian church and in the church today worldwide that you have not even come close to knowing what 'mostly all Christians' believe because you have not met most Christians historically or contemporaneously?

I urge you to be more careful with the words you use.

Oz

 

[Edward]

Goin all legalistic on me? You didn't understand what I meant. I didn't mean that I've met most Christians that have existed, down through time...lol.

But that, of the people who've ever broached the subject...(that I've heard)...they were, mostly, professing Christians.

I would've thought that, that would be obvious, since it's impossible for me to have known mostly all the Christians that's ever existed. Sorry you didn't get that. I didn't mean to confuse you. I prolly should have known that you'd misunderstand that, but I thought that part would be obvious. Sorry it wasn't to you.
:wink

 

[OzSpen]

Goin all legalistic on me? You didn't understand what I meant. I didn't mean that I've met most Christians that have existed, down through time...lol.

But that, of the people who've ever broached the subject...(that I've heard)...they were, mostly, professing Christians.

I would've thought that, that would be obvious, since it's impossible for me to have known mostly all the Christians that's ever existed. Sorry you didn't get that. I didn't mean to confuse you. I prolly should have known that you'd misunderstand that, but I thought that part would be obvious. Sorry it wasn't to you.
:wink

My point was that you should quit using hyperbole, but you didn't get it.

 

[eddif]

In the garden the tree of life kept physical life going.

A type and shadow of eternal spiritual life in the future, Jesus is the root out of dry ground (?) that sustains our eternal life.

The stories are parallel. One is a shadow, the other is the reality that casts the shadow. Jesus is always the reality / body casting the shadow back to creation, and forward into eternity to come. Eternity past was next to the garden tree of life, and Jesus will be present at the last trump to make eternal life a reality.

Continuing physical life and eternal spiritual life require input from God.

Hell is another subject requiring a place to contain evil.

eddif

 

[OzSpen]

In the garden the tree of life kept physical life going.

A type and shadow of eternal spiritual life in the future, Jesus is the root out of dry ground (?) that sustains our eternal life.

The stories are parallel. One is a shadow, the other is the reality that casts the shadow. Jesus is always the reality / body casting the shadow back to creation, and forward into eternity to come. Eternity past was next to the garden tree of life, and Jesus will be present at the last trump to make eternal life a reality.

Continuing physical life and eternal spiritual life require input from God.

Hell is another subject requiring a place to contain evil.

eddif

It reads like a composition out of the mind of eddif and not from Scripture.

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 8:10 KJV
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

Romans 2:14 KJV
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and theirthoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I Peter 4:11 KJV
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Mississippi rednecks just do not totally spring directly from the Law. Do not for sure feel like an oracle of God. See there sins ever before them.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jewish persons got the word first, but a few crumbs hit Gentiles on the Gentile day of their Pentecost.

It ain't about Misssissippi redneck eddif.
If an ox can be a symbol of a preacher. Why not....

eddif

 

[eddif]

The original post in this thread was pretty much rejected.

Death is kept at bay in the garden by the tree of life. After Adam's sin an angel kept Adam from the tree.


Jesus provided for eternal life. The cares of this life and the deceitfullness of riches tend to keep us away from the best way.

The kingdom in us is our hope. The battle in us convicts us of sin, righteousness, and judgement.

Symbolism in the OC / OT, but reality revealed after the word implant.

eddif

 

[OzSpen]

Hebrews 8:10 KJV
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

Romans 2:14 KJV
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and theirthoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I Peter 4:11 KJV
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Mississippi rednecks just do not totally spring directly from the Law. Do not for sure feel like an oracle of God. See there sins ever before them.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jewish persons got the word first, but a few crumbs hit Gentiles on the Gentile day of their Pentecost.

It ain't about Misssissippi redneck eddif.
If an ox can be a symbol of a preacher. Why not....

eddif

Picking and choosing verses like this does not help to interpret verses in context. Let's look at your example of Heb 8:10 (ESV) in context:

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbour
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord’,
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful towards their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away (Heb 8:6-13 ESV).​

So, Christ has mediated a more excellent ministry with the house of Israel than the old covenant. In fact the old covenant is 'obsolete'. In English, that means the obsolete is: no longer in use, disused, fallen into disuse, superannuated, outworn, antiquated, antediluvian, anachronistic, discarded, discontinued, old, dated, antique, archaic, ancient, fossilized, extinct, defunct, dead, bygone, out of fashion, out, behind the times (Oxford dictionaries synonyms).

Blaming Mississippi is not a reason to avoid examining carefully the context of Heb 8:14 (ESV).

Oz

 

[eddif]

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes thefirst one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away (Heb 8:6-13 ESV).

Note is ready to vanish, and not vanished.

The oxen passages are the best example of OC ordinances / commandments being directly connected to NC practice.

I Corinthians 9:9 KJV
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

The not muzzling of the ox as important is passing away, but the paying of the bishop was still a concern.

This thread is about death in the OT.
What symbols do you use to study the differences - similarities and show shadows and realities? Of course I may be asking for something you are not. We are not all kidneys or livers or lungs or hands. We do not all have the same calling. As long as we preach Christ and him crucified, we are helping the body of Christ.

eddif

 

[Edward]

My point was that you should quit using hyperbole, but you didn't get it.

Right, because it's not hyperbole. Most of the time the subject comes up, it's from Christians. I think you just want me to quit talking about it at all. Did I get it that time? Lol.

This is academic. If I'm wrong, then I want to learn. Help a brother out.

It is a pretty seriously debated subject. I would like to know the truth. But so far, no one has presented a viable interpretation of the passage(s) that make reasonable sense of what in tarnation they're talking about in Genesis 6 and Numbers 13.

If it's some kind of allegory, then what? It seems to say one thing, but (apparently) that can't be true, but it is important enough to be in (the Canon), so we are supposed to learn something from it...what?

I've heard all four sides of this, only one view (to me) even comes close to making sense or being feasible.

And THAT view, seems to upset people. They outright reject the Angel view...call it idiocy, stupidness, but that's it. Purely an emotional response and no theory to its real meaning.

Doesn't that strike you as odd? It does me. If I'm so stupid, enlighten me. I want to know the truth.

 

[smaller]

This is academic. If I'm wrong, then I want to learn. Help a brother out.

It is a pretty seriously debated subject. I would like to know the truth. But so far, no one has presented a viable interpretation of the passage(s) that make reasonable sense of what in tarnation they're talking about in Genesis 6

Believers go off the rails when they try to understand scriptures by only seeing flesh men.

We know for example, from early Genesis, that a serpent is involved with man/mankind. That serpent GROWS to be a GREAT RED DRAGON. Scripture terms this "entity unseen" even a "Leviathan." We might even perceive it as a giant in some applications of associations. It is always pointless to see "just and only" the seen in scriptures, generally speaking. Those who press to see human giants only are not taking in the unseen information being conveyed in those "sights."

I don't discount that there were people of "large physical stature." It was probably quite common to INBREED people who were larger to produce larger offspring. I think "how large" is subject to question, but that is only a fleshly observation. In the cattle business for example inbreeding or what they term "line breeding" is quite common and can produce some amazing progeny, but there are also some deep pitfalls in the methodology because it also "doubles down" on the genetic faults as well. So both a colossal good outcome and a colossal bad outcome does come, hand in hand.

and Numbers 13.

If it's some kind of allegory, then what? It seems to say one thing, but (apparently) that can't be true, but it is important enough to be in (the Canon), so we are supposed to learn something from it...what?

ALL, every last one of the showings of 'GIANTS' in the land in the scriptures has spiritual content behind the curtains, beyond any doubt. If readers get obsessed over the flesh aspect, they are missing the important content.

I've heard all four sides of this, only one view (to me) even comes close to making sense or being feasible.

And THAT view, seems to upset people. They outright reject the Angel view...call it idiocy, stupidness, but that's it. Purely an emotional response and no theory to its real meaning.

When people try to dissect "giant" matters from the scriptures in the fleshly view, some land on some exceptionally bizarre conclusions, such as "Satan or devils" physically mating with man to produce these giant offsprings. I'd consider that extreme obsessed "fringe elements" sights. In short, utter nonsense.

Doesn't that strike you as odd? It does me. If I'm so stupid, enlighten me. I want to know the truth.

Look past the flesh. It's much more engaging.

 

[OzSpen]

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes thefirst one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away (Heb 8:6-13 ESV).

Note is ready to vanish, and not vanished.

The oxen passages are the best example of OC ordinances / commandments being directly connected to NC practice.

I Corinthians 9:9 KJV
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

The not muzzling of the ox as important is passing away, but the paying of the bishop was still a concern.

This thread is about death in the OT.
What symbols do you use to study the differences - similarities and show shadows and realities? Of course I may be asking for something you are not. We are not all kidneys or livers or lungs or hands. We do not all have the same calling. As long as we preach Christ and him crucified, we are helping the body of Christ.

eddif

eddif,

Who was the writer of the Hebrews addressing? They were Jews newly converted to Christ who were wanting to return to the Old Covenant laws. His warning of the danger of drifting away from salvation is given in Heb 2 (ESV). Note 2:1.

Heb 3-5 (ESV) establishes Jesus as greater than Moses and the Mosaic law. What's the warning to these Jewish Christians? They had become dull of hearing spiritually (Heb 5:11 ESV) and they were warned about committing apostasy (Heb 5:11-6:12 ESV). The certainty of God's promise to Abraham was sworn with an oath (Heb 6:17 ESV). In Heb 8 (ESV), through his death, Jesus became the high priest of a better covenant (Heb 8:6 ESV).

You noted of Heb 8:13 (ESV): 'Note is ready to vanish, and not vanished'. We use this kind of present tense in English to refer to something that has happened in the past, when I say, 'I go to the cinema with my children to see that movie', when I meant, 'I went to the cinema'.

We know from Heb 8:6-13 (ESV) that the new covenant has already come and the old covenant HAS BEEN MADE obsolete:

• The writer calls the covenant, 'new'. Thus, it replaces the 'old'.
  
• God predicted this in Jeremiah, 600 years before Christ, with language of 'I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah' (Heb 8:8 ESV; Jer 31:31-34 ESV);
• It happened 'in Christ' and his 'much more excellent' way (v. 6); so it has already happened as Christ had died and was resurrected at the time the writer of Hebrews wrote his epistle.
  
• In speaking of the new covenant (v 13);
• In v. 13, the ESV does not convey the meaning accurately of the Greek with its translation of 'he makes the first one obsolete'. However, the NASB does translate the tense of the verb more accurately as 'he has made the first obsolete' (Heb 8:13 NASB). 'Has made' is the perfect tense, active voice, indicative mood of palaiow. Being the perfect tense it refers to action in the past that has continuing results. That's the kind of action indicated by the perfect tense in Greek.

Therefore your understanding of 'ready to vanish away' in 8:13 is complicated by the fact that the perfect tense is used for 'he has made the first obsolete'.

Some commentators understand 'ready to vanish away' as referring to the date in which the letter to the Hebrews was written (before AD 70 and the destruction of the temple). They say that if it was written after AD 70, the author would have written, 'has vanished away'.

The fact remains that the Greek perfect tense of 'has made the first obsolete' indicates a past action with continuing results. What is the past action? 'But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises' (Heb 8:6 ESV).

Oz

 

[smaller]

We know from Heb 8:6-13 (ESV) that the new covenant has already come and the old covenant HAS BEEN MADE obsolete:

The change you refer to does by no means wipe away the Words of God of the O.T. Which is a common fallacy of christiandom.

Paul advises us to see those same Words, but in the Light of the Spirit. Romans 13:8-12 is an excellent example. So is 1 Cor. 9:9-10 or Gal. 4. Paul taught that the law is spiritual. Romans 7:14.

I know it's a deeper subject. But the notions of chucking it out the door as "the Old Covenant" is NOT on the table of understandings whatsoever. Jesus said "man" will live by Every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. That doesn't mean "chuck it."

 

[Edward]

Believers go off the rails when they try to understand scriptures by only seeing flesh men.

We know for example, from early Genesis, that a serpent is involved with man/mankind. That serpent GROWS to be a GREAT RED DRAGON. Scripture terms this "entity unseen" even a "Leviathan." We might even perceive it as a giant in some applications of associations. It is always pointless to see "just and only" the seen in scriptures, generally speaking. Those who press to see human giants only are not taking in the unseen information being conveyed in those "sights."

I don't discount that there were people of "large physical stature." It was probably quite common to INBREED people who were larger to produce larger offspring. I think "how large" is subject to question, but that is only a fleshly observation. In the cattle business for example inbreeding or what they term "line breeding" is quite common and can produce some amazing progeny, but there are also some deep pitfalls in the methodology because it also "doubles down" on the genetic faults as well. So both a colossal good outcome and a colossal bad outcome does come, hand in hand.


ALL, every last one of the showings of 'GIANTS' in the land in the scriptures has spiritual content behind the curtains, beyond any doubt. If readers get obsessed over the flesh aspect, they are missing the important content.


When people try to dissect "giant" matters from the scriptures in the fleshly view, some land on some exceptionally bizarre conclusions, such as "Satan or devils" physically mating with man to produce these giant offsprings. I'd consider that extreme obsessed "fringe elements" sights. In short, utter nonsense.


Look past the flesh. It's much more engaging.

It names them in Numbers! Amalakites and all the others. I think theres little doubt they were fleshy.

And it's easy to see why they would be attracted to our women, they're nice and they smell good. Lol

 

[jasonc]

Women weren't bathing and using perfume like we common think of today.

TryING to stay clean in the desert is a bit hard.

 

[eddif]

I don't discount that there were people of "large physical stature." It was probably quite common to INBREED people who were larger to produce larger offspring. I think "how large" is subject to question, but that is only a fleshly observation. In the cattle business for example inbreeding or what they term "line breeding" is quite common and can produce some amazing progeny, but there are also some deep pitfalls in the methodology because it also "doubles down" on the genetic faults as well. So both a colossal good outcome and a colossal bad outcome does come, hand in hand.

The leaven of the Pharisees. Now there are giants in the eyes of men. Just may be a little puffed up in their importance.

The smaller gifts / jewels. Each one in the kingdom deals with different gifts. Usually we say well he ain't got my gifts, but then the body has differing organ systems and we (eddif for instance) does not build a whole man. It takes Edward and others to be lungs, kidneys, hands,etc.

Giant - puffed up human on steroids. Man of renoun (big shot). I may understand some of this yet. Keep on posting.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Romans 12:3 KJV
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If we are on our knees as servants, we don,t have to worry about being as high as mountains. Especially a mountain being thrown into the sea.

Rednecks think funny.
eddif

 

[eddif]

Genesis 6
Men had sin in dominion over them. Continually.

We are no longer living with sin in dominion.

eddif

 

[Edward]

Genesis 6
Men had sin in dominion over them. Continually.

We are no longer living with sin in dominion.

eddif

That's a good point. After Jesus rose again, that was our invitation to come back into the garden of Eden. Back into a fullness of fellowship with God, like we were pre-fall.

Amen!